Do you think they are deliberately trying to game the offside rule?
Quick offside question
- Thread starter socalkdg
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Do you think they are deliberately trying to game the offside rule?
This makes sense. The girl tried to block the ball from going to the attacker 2 yards past her. Instead it deflected off the side of her chest, went to the attacker, who then had a break away and scored. No offside.
Unfortunately it was with 20 seconds to go and we lost the final.
Students of the history of the game see the recent developments to be a break with tradition. Of course, the tradition started with no forward passes of a live ball being allowed anywhere on the field, so the break is not necessarily a bad thing.
coachrefparent
GOLD
And your "point" is still absolutely wrong, as Surfref notes, despite you repeating it throughout this thread and confusing the issue further.
If you get a chance check out Baldref's link. Most seemed fairly straightforward (like Surfref's links) but the clip from the BFA-GAB game seems to fall in this gray area that is being debated. In this case the defender (that was quite a distance from where the ball was when initially kicked) deliberately, but awkwardly, reaches out and makes a touch on the ball. The ruling was that offside did not reset because the player was off balance when he touched the ball and thus wasn't playing the ball. I'd be curious to hear what everyone's thought were on this call.
I know there is some chest thumping going on but this seems to be a legit, good faith dispute. From my perspective it seems to turn on each individual's definition of "play(s)" and not so much on the definition of "deliberate". Those that treat "play" as more of a noun have a higher standard for offside reset, whereas those that treat it as verb have a lower standard. It could also be framed from the perspective of "makes a play with the ball" (higher standard) or "makes a play on the ball" (lower standard).
I will point out that the LOTG uses the term "deliberately plays the ball" and not the term "deliberately touches the ball" (and "touches the ball" is a term used in other areas of LOTG) so that implies to me from a layman's perspective that IFAB intended to have a higher standard to reset offside than just a mere deliberate touch. Of course, I can't vouch for what is taught at ref meetings or what "legislating from the bench" occurs.
I think Clattenburg might disagree.
https://liverpooloffside.sbnation.c...y-kane-lamela-offside-liverpool-tottenham-var
"As to the first, while there was contact on the ball by Dejan Lovren as it was played to Kane, Clattenburg noted allowing a player in an offside position to collect a ball when it’s played intentionally by a defender—as with a back pass—is different to it being touched in an attempt to stop it being played to an offside player."
Far be it from me, a baby ref, to challenge, but just wanted to point out in my level 8 test this winter I was told I was wrong when I made this argument.
The other thing I don't get is why defender sticking leg out= deliberate play but a goalkeeper pushing the ball with an extension dive does not = deliberate play. Someone care to reconcile for the sake of my education please?
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
I used the caveat, "as they get more skilled". I honestly sort of agree with you when it comes to "deliberately played", at the end of the day, it is the referee's judgement call. Whether they anticipated it or not is just 1 consideration. If it is enough to be a deliberate play would depend on if it was a "bang-bang" play as you described, or maybe they were 5 yards away when they anticipated the ball and that looks like more of a deliberate play. Its the gray area where you think, "I wouldn't have blamed them if it hit them from 5 yards away, too fast, but since they deliberately anticipated from 5 yards away, it is deliberate."
That being said, the same factors in judging "deliberately handling". I would be inclined to give the handling call even in a "bang-bang" 1 yard away play if they anticipated where the ball was going to go (higher level of course). There were a few controversial instances of this in the World Cup.
In general, I dislike changes to the LOTG that increase the incidents that depend on the Opinion of the Referee. It's hard enough to train young players in one clearcut version of the Laws.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
At the top level, they are all pretty consistent in their application of judgement (Opinion) because it is carefully formed by PRO or other respective governing referee organization.
However at the youth level.... it can be a nightmare. Yes, because of some misinformation, but mostly because every level of skill requires a different set of "opinions" to keep the spirit of the law.
Surfref
PREMIER
The LOTG (see below) make an exception for a deliberate save by any opponent which includes a goal keeper. I really did not want to bring this subject up because it will open a whole new can of worms and people will start arguing about "what is a deliberate save?" I do think it is easier to determine what is a deliberate save compared to what is a deliberate play on the ball.
LOTG 2018/2019 Pages 97/98:
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalized on becoming involved in active play by gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official, or opponent or been deliberately saved by any opponent.
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by an opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.
I don't think Howard Webb (or Geiger) agrees either:
https://www.ajc.com/sports/webb-opinion-the-disallowed-atlanta-united-goal/x1JNS4ITRXl1jeY6A9pyCN/
“When you see a player suddenly react, stick a leg out, for example, at a ball that’s coming at them with pace, that’s not considered a deliberate play of the ball,” Webb told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution."
Another thing referees don't like me to ask them is "Did you ever play this game?"
This is very help (learn from you guys all the time!). So following situation: 1) offensive winger crosses the ball into the area but it is not a SOG, 2) keeper comes off the line to catch or punch the ball but mishandles the ball, 3) the ball goes over the keepers head backwards towards the goal but does not go into the goal, 4) the ball lands at the feet of the offensive striker who kicks it into the goal, and 5) the offensive striker would be otherwise offside but for the keeper handling the ball, because this isn't a deliberate save and the keeper deliberately played the ball, no offside?
Surfref
PREMIER
I think Webb does a good job at describing it: "defender making an instinctual move, rather than a deliberate move, on the ball."
Here is the actual play with the instinctual move and deflection: https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2018-05-09-atlanta-united-fc-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/152622
This is the link that I posted earlier from the PRO site and is very similar to the one in the article. The play in the article happens much faster and the players are closer so an instinctive deflection vice a deliberate play in this play: https://youtu.be/yaAXDxo4qHs
I like the fact that this will add more offense to the game, but I don't like the fact that it was introduced in a way that will lead to an uncertain result. Just kick it in there and see what the referee calls.
Looks pretty deliberate to me. What's the issue?
Another question - will NCAA be following along this path this year? And High school?
Surfref
PREMIER
If the trajectory of the ball would have taken it into the goal or very near the goal (a player could have reasonably thought the ball was going in the goal), then I would view that as a deliberate save and the attacker is offside. If the ball was just being crossed and had no chance of going in the goal or near the goal, then I would say no deliberate save and yes deliberate play so no offside and GOOOOOOOOAL. This stuff sometimes happens so fast that it is hard to tell and the referee must make a quick judgement call. As in WATFLY's video, Geiger initially ruled a goal and had to use VAR to determine Offside and No Goal. Since we do not have VAR on the youth fields, you just have to hope the referee and AR are working together as a team and have the knowledge and experience to get the call correct.
Surfref
PREMIER
FIFA/IFAB/US Soccer have had this in place for a few years now, so it is nothing new. I have not seen the latest HS rules and know it was called this way in all of the college games I saw last year. I would expect HS to adopt it either this year or next.
Surfref
PREMIER
There is very little likelihood that a referee or AR in a youth game gets this call correct.
https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/151094
https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/151094
Even worse when you have only the one CR. Even worse when the CR isn't physically fit and is barely moving from the center spot. Most horrible when the CR doesn't even know the basics of the rule (let alone argue what is deliberate play). My son (keeper) at a tournament a few weeks back had a SOG from almost the half launched at him. Extension dive save pushes the ball to an unmarked striker on the other side of the field sitting inside the area. Was sure the CR (who no doubt had done a ton of games that weekend and it was now the final game on a Sunday without ARs) had either blown the call or not seen it (because the ref had no prayer of outrunning the boys let alone the ball on that fast break), but lo and behold I watch the tape afterwards and there's a defender crept all the way into the far corner putting the rebounding striker back onside. Not sure if the ref made the correct call, or just didn't know or bother with the offside rules, or the soccer gods of justice were just on his side that day, but sometimes it just works out.....it turned out to be the game winning point, sadly for us.
baldref
GOLD
that's very different in that the ref team knows there is VAR and as such, can afford not to make the call, even though it shouldn't have been made. It appears very much like the attacking team kicks the ball to the player who scores, when in slow motion, you can tell differently. We don't have that luxury, unless we're completely sure the defender played the ball.