President Joe Biden

[whatithink]

Oh sorry, I miss understood. Think I got caught up on some of the wording in the 4th paragraph which you cited...
"It’s worth remembering that while the media call the initiative an infrastructure plan, the Biden administration doesn’t. Officially, it’s the American Jobs Plan, and it consistently proposes creating or protecting jobs, especially union jobs. But the administration’s fullest description of the plan, a nearly 12,000-word fact sheet, leans heavily on infrastructure from the beginning. A close reading reveals just how much is really there."

Anyway, adding up your list of number in my head... and it looks like your total is around $1.5 Trillion... when of course Bidens 'job plan' is closer to $2.5 Trillion. Which brings me back to the point I was trying to make: no one seems to know what the hell is in this massive government bill.

At 12,000 pages, I'm not surprised. Not much is being made of the fact that its a multi year spending plan, 8 years I read. $300B a year seems palatable. Its plan is to create 18M jobs in the next 4 years, which is a good thing, if it works obviously. There's also a plan to pay for it, but we'll see how that fairs.

In any case, we'll have to see what comes out of congress (if anything). I have no doubt there are items in the bill I would disagree with and items I would agree with. I heard recently on some news program that infrastructure spending in the US, mostly locally driven, saw a net $4T fall relatively since the 2008 crash. The GOP & Dems seem to agree something needs to be done, just not what.

Generally though, someone has a multi year plan, during which $Ts will be spent but paid for (!), creating millions of jobs and improving a wide range of traditional infrastructure, non-trad infrastructure, green technology and green infrastructure etc. Biden's put his stake in the ground, we'll see what if anything passes.

 

[tenacious]

At 12,000 pages, I'm not surprised. Not much is being made of the fact that its a multi year spending plan, 8 years I read. $300B a year seems palatable. Its plan is to create 18M jobs in the next 4 years, which is a good thing, if it works obviously. There's also a plan to pay for it, but we'll see how that fairs.

In any case, we'll have to see what comes out of congress (if anything). I have no doubt there are items in the bill I would disagree with and items I would agree with. I heard recently on some news program that infrastructure spending in the US, mostly locally driven, saw a net $4T fall relatively since the 2008 crash. The GOP & Dems seem to agree something needs to be done, just not what.

Generally though, someone has a multi year plan, during which $Ts will be spent but paid for (!), creating millions of jobs and improving a wide range of traditional infrastructure, non-trad infrastructure, green technology and green infrastructure etc. Biden's put his stake in the ground, we'll see what if anything passes.

So 18m jobs... for $2.5 trillion comes out to around $140,000 per job created. I'm sorry, but I just feel we can do better.

Although admittedly, if the plan does pay for itself in the end then I could be convinced otherwise.

 

[whatithink]

So 18m jobs... for $2.5 trillion comes out to around $140,000 per job created. I'm sorry, but I just feel we can do better.

Although admittedly, if the plan does pay for itself in the end then I could be convinced otherwise.

Yeah, we'll see where it ends up. It is somewhat refreshing to have someone with an actual plan, written down and presented - to be supported, amended, torn down or whatever.

BTW, the 18M jobs vs the $2.5T in spending = $140K per job created is a very simplistic view.
- the plan is 18M jobs in the next 4 years
- the plan is $2.5T over the next 8 years

For example, 18M at $60K per year, slightly below the national average, is about $1T in pay annually. Gov takes say 25% between taxes, ss etc, so "makes" $250B back. So for the second 4 years, that's an additional $1T back, so now you are at $84K per job ... and the corp taxes need to be factored in and the tax "revenue" beyond the 8 years etc.

I'm not cheerleading the plan as such, but I am cheerleading that someone has an actual plan which is looking to fix items that need to be fixed (infrastructure) and wants to generate jobs. I'm sure it will differ once Congress is done with it. I do hope it pays for itself ... but I'm very skeptical of that.

 

[tenacious]

Yeah, we'll see where it ends up. It is somewhat refreshing to have someone with an actual plan, written down and presented - to be supported, amended, torn down or whatever.

BTW, the 18M jobs vs the $2.5T in spending = $140K per job created is a very simplistic view.
- the plan is 18M jobs in the next 4 years
- the plan is $2.5T over the next 8 years

For example, 18M at $60K per year, slightly below the national average, is about $1T in pay annually. Gov takes say 25% between taxes, ss etc, so "makes" $250B back. So for the second 4 years, that's an additional $1T back, so now you are at $84K per job ... and the corp taxes need to be factored in and the tax "revenue" beyond the 8 years etc.

I'm not cheerleading the plan as such, but I am cheerleading that someone has an actual plan which is looking to fix items that need to be fixed (infrastructure) and wants to generate jobs. I'm sure it will differ once Congress is done with it. I do hope it pays for itself ... but I'm very skeptical of that.

Well... maybe simplistic to a guy who shrugs his shoulders about a trillion dollar hole in his understanding of 'the plan'.

 

[whatithink]

Well... maybe simplistic to a guy who shrugs his shoulders about a trillion dollar hole in his understanding of 'the plan'.

$300B a year isn't a lot in a $21T economy. Creating 18M jobs directly ripples out and creates more. We'll see what the "hole" is when/if congress passes it ... in fact we'll see what the "plan" is when/if!

 

[tenacious]

You know what really worries me about 'the plan'. Let's say we do borrow $2.5 trillion. Then the next day Russia and China make a coordinated attack on the Ukraine and Taiwan. I'm nervous about what happens then. How's Jimmy Carter going to pay for that... er, sorry. I mean how's Biden going to handle that?

We need start paying for what we're spending. We need to be realistic about how the world works. Or we're going to end up in trouble.

 

[Desert Hound]

 

[whatithink]

You know what really worries me about 'the plan'. Let's say we do borrow $2.5 trillion. Then the next day Russia and China make a coordinated attack on the Ukraine and Taiwan. I'm nervous about what happens then. How's Jimmy Carter going to pay for that... er, sorry. I mean how's Biden going to handle that?

We need start paying for what we're spending. We need to be realistic about how the world works. Or we're going to end up in trouble.

FFS

- borrowing $300B for the next 12 months as part of the 8 year plan isn't going to be a Eureka moment for Russia & China to coordinate shit
- if they do decide to do something in Ukraine or Taiwan, their economies tank just as much as everyone else and they do care about that
- Putin just gave himself a couple of more terms, but is there for life, as is Xi - why would they do anything now?
- neither the GOP or Dems give a shit about paying for what they are spending, not a single one of them in Congress give a crap

 

[tenacious]

FFS

- borrowing $300B for the next 12 months as part of the 8 year plan isn't going to be a Eureka moment for Russia & China to coordinate shit
- if they do decide to do something in Ukraine or Taiwan, their economies tank just as much as everyone else and they do care about that
- Putin just gave himself a couple of more terms, but is there for life, as is Xi - why would they do anything now?
- neither the GOP or Dems give a shit about paying for what they are spending, not a single one of them in Congress give a crap

You're skipping over trillions again. We're talking about borrowing $4.5 Trillion in less then a year. After 4 years of Trump who ran the engine at $1.5 trillion a year plus. That's going to have an effect on our ability to protect China from Hong Kong-ing Taiwan, or Russia going Crimea-ing the rest of the Ukraine.

As for the economic fall out? You understand Russia and China aren't democracies, and that their leaders aren't accountable to their populations. If you look at the world from that perspective, what's a few years of depression for the populous if it adds your name to the list of great emperors and czars that are remembered down history.

Yes I agree neither the gop or dems care about debt. But at this moment I will admit I have more faith in the gop coming around.

 

[whatithink]

You're skipping over trillions again. We're talking about borrowing $4.5 Trillion in less then a year. After 4 years of Trump who ran the engine at $1.5 trillion a year plus. That's going to have an effect on our ability to protect China from Hong Kong-ing Taiwan, or Russia going Crimea-ing the rest of the Ukraine.

As for the economic fall out? You understand Russia and China aren't democracies, and that their leaders aren't accountable to their populations. If you look at the world from that perspective, what's a few years of depression for the populous if it adds your name to the list of great emperors and czars that are remembered down history.

Yes I agree neither the gop or dems care about debt. But at this moment I will admit I have more faith in the gop coming around.

I'm not skipping over trillions. Its an 8 year plan, so you don't have to spend it all in year one. It also allegedly pays for itself, but we'll see on that.

I'm meh on Taiwan. They should be able to take care of themselves. They have the money and manpower - have at it. They have zero practical value to the US. The Ukraine has been bubbling for years and will continue. I don't think Putin is going to full on invade a country of 40M who do not want him. He needs the $ from gas & oil exports to fund his fantasy. He may take some more nibbles and it suits him to go all nationalistic. Always be wary of leaders who go all nationalistic ... there are some locally too.

As for the GOP and the debt, that's just hilarious. The GOP care about the national debt when the Dems are in control only. That's it. When they get it back, they rack it up at a faster rate than the Dems.

 

[tenacious]

I'm not skipping over trillions. Its an 8 year plan, so you don't have to spend it all in year one. It also allegedly pays for itself, but we'll see on that.

I'm meh on Taiwan. They should be able to take care of themselves. They have the money and manpower - have at it. They have zero practical value to the US. The Ukraine has been bubbling for years and will continue. I don't think Putin is going to full on invade a country of 40M who do not want him. He needs the $ from gas & oil exports to fund his fantasy. He may take some more nibbles and it suits him to go all nationalistic. Always be wary of leaders who go all nationalistic ... there are some locally too.

As for the GOP and the debt, that's just hilarious. The GOP care about the national debt when the Dems are in control only. That's it. When they get it back, they rack it up at a faster rate than the Dems.

I'm just not into abandoning traditional allies so Joe Biden can fund all this prancing around sprinkling money. It just more bad government that is going to haunt us down the road.

That said, I respect that you think about it differently. Cheers mate.

 

[whatithink]

I'm just not into abandoning traditional allies so Joe Biden can fund all this prancing around sprinkling money. It just more bad government that is going to haunt us down the road.

That said, I respect that you think about it differently. Cheers mate.

No worries. I'm not generally OK with abandoning allies, but Taiwan has had decades to figure out a relationship with China. Obviously that's a very overly simplistic statement but is the US really prepared to go to war with China (or they with us) over Taiwan?

In contrast, I was utterly disgusted with the abandonment of the Kurds after they had literally gone to war in support of and with the US in Syria. The Kurds have bled with the US military in support of US geo political goals, and they were cast aside without a second thought. It was despicable to me.

I likewise respect the difference in opinion and civil conversation.

 

[tenacious]

No worries. I'm not generally OK with abandoning allies, but Taiwan has had decades to figure out a relationship with China. Obviously that's a very overly simplistic statement but is the US really prepared to go to war with China (or they with us) over Taiwan?

In contrast, I was utterly disgusted with the abandonment of the Kurds after they had literally gone to war in support of and with the US in Syria. The Kurds have bled with the US military in support of US geo political goals, and they were cast aside without a second thought. It was despicable to me.

I likewise respect the difference in opinion and civil conversation.

Maybe you should be asking why China is willing to go to war with us over Taiwan? This is an agreement they signed onto. Are we also allowed to go take Panama over again then... or how does this play out long term I wonder if we become unable to offer up any response at all?

Also by now everyone is aware of those re-education camps. Imagine what it must feel like to live somewhere they are about to take over. If Japan, South Korea, Philippines all decide the economic center of gravity has shifted it will only be a matter of months until they start offering China the store to avoid being re-educated. As someone born in a free country I can't even imagine what I would give up to avoid that fate.

Finally as a democrat... allowing the Asian voters to go the way of the 'Cuban' voter is a bad move politically. White guilt isn't a universal American trait.

 

[whatithink]

Maybe you should be asking why China is willing to go to war with us over Taiwan? This is an agreement they signed onto. Are we also allowed to go take Panama over again then... or how does this play out long term I wonder if we become unable to offer up any response at all?

Also by now everyone is aware of those re-education camps. Imagine what it must feel like to live somewhere they are about to take over. If Japan, South Korea, Philippines all decide the economic center of gravity has shifted it will only be a matter of months until they start offering China the store to avoid being re-educated. As someone born in a free country I can't even imagine what I would give up to avoid that fate.

Finally as a democrat... allowing the Asian voters to go the way of the 'Cuban' voter is a bad move politically. White guilt isn't a universal American trait.

China considers Taiwan part of China, because it always was until the 40s. Panama, eh!

The treatment of the Uighurs is obscene.

Asia is already shifting, including the countries you mentioned, RCEP: China signs huge Asia Pacific trade deal with 14 countries - CNN. The TransPacific Partnership would have cemented the economic links but T dumped that. Obama was pivoting to Asia to counter China via the agreement, but T nixed it because ... Obama.

I don't follow the last point. Cuba was a dictatorship and play pen for the rich while the Cubans were piss poor and forgotten. I don't agree with Communism or socialism, but supporting dictators who suck their people dry never ends well. It seems to have as much chance of an opposite reaction (Cuba (Batista) > Communism, Iran (Shah) > religious zealots) as a path to normalcy (Chile (Pinochet) > democracy). You shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the US has "happily" supported many evil dictators who kill and subjugate their own people only to eventually get overthrown. The whole freedom thing seems to stop at our borders, fine for us but whateves about anyone else if it doesn't suit us.

 

[Hüsker Dü]

Perhaps the creating union jobs didn't focus group well with the ongoing issues with the police and teachers unions.

As people have been brainwashed to vote against their own best interests, against things that help working people. I guess the Globalization of America means regressing from the gains made, Vietnam here we come.

 

[tenacious]

China considers Taiwan part of China, because it always was until the 40s. Panama, eh!

The treatment of the Uighurs is obscene.

Asia is already shifting, including the countries you mentioned, RCEP: China signs huge Asia Pacific trade deal with 14 countries - CNN. The TransPacific Partnership would have cemented the economic links but T dumped that. Obama was pivoting to Asia to counter China via the agreement, but T nixed it because ... Obama.

I don't follow the last point. Cuba was a dictatorship and play pen for the rich while the Cubans were piss poor and forgotten. I don't agree with Communism or socialism, but supporting dictators who suck their people dry never ends well. It seems to have as much chance of an opposite reaction (Cuba (Batista) > Communism, Iran (Shah) > religious zealots) as a path to normalcy (Chile (Pinochet) > democracy). You shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the US has "happily" supported many evil dictators who kill and subjugate their own people only to eventually get overthrown. The whole freedom thing seems to stop at our borders, fine for us but whateves about anyone else if it doesn't suit us.

So basically we've already lost to China and the Panama Canal has no value... lol

 

[tenacious]

As people have been brainwashed to vote against their own best interests, against things that help working people. I guess the Globalization of America means regressing from the gains made, Vietnam here we come.

Gosh Husker, from the first day this nation was created the elites have been saying the dirty masses are too dumb to make it work. But I don't know how well this criticism stands up when you compare how our nation has fared compared to top down model European countries over the past couple hundred years? You can add all of those countries economies together now... and it's still smaller than what we've got going on here.

As to globalization? It's already happened... although I will admit that we still haven't worked out totally what that means for the American middle class.

 

[whatithink]

So basically we've already lost to China and the Panama Canal has no value... lol

No on China, and I'm not sure why you went tangential with Panama - there's no comparison of Taiwan and Panama.

 

[Desert Hound]

This encapsulates the bias we see from the press on a regular basis.

All the press is biased. It is just that they pretend they are not, and a substantial amount of people think their preferred news source is str8 down the line while others (Fox is a common theme) are not.

But this is an example of how the press can frame a story to look bad related to one person, but have a completely different outlook if it is related to another.

Drew Holden's thread on media's brazenly biased coverage of Trump and Biden on Afghanistan may be his 'most damning' yet [screenshots]

twitchy.com

 

[tenacious]

No on China, and I'm not sure why you went tangential with Panama - there's no comparison of Taiwan and Panama.

Hmm... my analysis is China is a manufacturing powerhouse, which makes shipping lanes like the Panama Canal vital. While Taiwan without privileged access to 'western' universities and markets is just another island off the coast of China.