Possession (GK)

Emma said:
I don't know the answer to this but am curious - So what happens if the forward is dribbling the ball into the goal and keeper puts a finger on the ball but forward is still dribbling it into the goal? Is that a turnover of possession to keeper's team or is it continued dribbling and goal for forward's team?
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As long as the keeper is able to STOP the movement of the ball with her finger on it, theen yes, its the keepers ball. Again, the Am. football fan would be baffled by this in real time because thte optics look in favor of the forward.

If the ball is stopped by the forward AND Keeper hitting the ball at the same time, then its anyone's ball. but even if the keeper stops the ball a split second before the attacker dribbles it again, it belongs to the keeper.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
As long as the keeper is able to STOP the movement of the ball with her finger on it, theen yes, its the keepers ball. Again, the Am. football fan would be baffled by this in real time because thte optics look in favor of the forward.

If the ball is stopped by the forward AND Keeper hitting the ball at the same time, then its anyone's ball. but even if the keeper stops the ball a split second before the attacker dribbles it again, it belongs to the keeper.
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Thanks. That's pretty tough to officiate in real time and generally the second scenario upsets Goalie's team if Ref doesn't call possession for goalie.
 
Surfref said:
I could not tell when watching the video on my iPad. So, I played it on our 80 inch tv and it is clear the keeper had hands on the ball trapping it against the ground which would be considered possession. The blue player kicks the ball out of the keepers hand. Should have been no goal.

As for the referee, his initial positioning is okay. When the ball gets past the last defenders on the kick, the referee should have ran toward goal and slightly to his left to get a good view of the play and have a clearer angle looking toward the play. So, instead of walking he should have ran. It looks to me that there were 4-5 players that may have blocked his view of the keeper. Not sure if the AR would have been much help. I probably would have at least done a quick check with the AR if I had any question about possession.
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you may well be correct, however, there is no VAR in 9 year old girls soccer, and breaking that down as a mistake by the referee when the naked eye might not be able to tell...... i'm for playing on as opposed to assuming she had some sort of possession. but again, the video i see is difficult to tell.

how you doing my friend?
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
As long as the keeper is able to STOP the movement of the ball with her finger on it, theen yes, its the keepers ball. Again, the Am. football fan would be baffled by this in real time because thte optics look in favor of the forward.

If the ball is stopped by the forward AND Keeper hitting the ball at the same time, then its anyone's ball. but even if the keeper stops the ball a split second before the attacker dribbles it again, it belongs to the keeper.
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and the human eye can discern a split second on the ball stopping with a finger on it? in my opinion, that's not the spirit of the law. if she can possess the ball for a discernible time, sure. if it's a split second, then that has to go to the VAR referee in the booth.......
 
baldref said:
you may well be correct, however, there is no VAR in 9 year old girls soccer, and breaking that down as a mistake by the referee when the naked eye might not be able to tell...... i'm for playing on as opposed to assuming she had some sort of possession. but again, the video i see is difficult to tell.

how you doing my friend?
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I am doing good. And you
 
AZsoccerDad said:
Can any Ref's please explain why this rule is so hard to understand and properly enforce? In our semi-final game, the AR and the Ref allow a a girl to clearly kick the ball out of my daughter's hands (yes both hands on the ball, I know only a finger is technically possession)...they allow the goal and that forces PK's....

Seriously, what the hell is so hard about this?

PS. yes, Karma came back and my daughter made a great PK save to win so no sour grapes...just a common observation.
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If they both get to the ball at the same time, fair challenge.
 
AZsoccerDad said:
Actually, you have no right to the ball if it is in the keeper's hands. I am happy to get tore up going straight to a ref forum asking why they can't get this right. I played keeper at various levels so I am not an uniformed soccer dad...I am sure you know that one finger can be possession (not recommended of course)...so again..rather than tell me about getting tore up for coming on the forum, why don't you help me understand how this is one of the most common misses for Refs?
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It's not a miss.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
As long as the keeper is able to STOP the movement of the ball with her finger on it, theen yes, its the keepers ball. Again, the Am. football fan would be baffled by this in real time because thte optics look in favor of the forward.

If the ball is stopped by the forward AND Keeper hitting the ball at the same time, then its anyone's ball. but even if the keeper stops the ball a split second before the attacker dribbles it again, it belongs to the keeper.
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I don't think so.
 
Thank you for the question, and the dialogue. As the parent of a GK, and ref of other sports, I found the explanation and real-life examples really helpful. It's a good point to reference that GK "possession" very different than how possession is determined in tackleball, or 2b/SS covering second base on a double-play. Something to watch for going forward.

Any thoughts from readers of this string about the new rules allowing the offense to play the ball before it clears the goal-box? Thoughts about whether it will improve the younger's ability to play up from the back and prevent opposing coaches from pressing and looking for cheap goals?
 
LMULions said:
Thank you for the question, and the dialogue. As the parent of a GK, and ref of other sports, I found the explanation and real-life examples really helpful. It's a good point to reference that GK "possession" very different than how possession is determined in tackleball, or 2b/SS covering second base on a double-play. Something to watch for going forward.

Any thoughts from readers of this string about the new rules allowing the offense to play the ball before it clears the goal-box? Thoughts about whether it will improve the younger's ability to play up from the back and prevent opposing coaches from pressing and looking for cheap goals?
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I think the impact will be negligible.

The team taking the goal kick benefit (or should benefit if the coach is halfway decent) because having the player be able to complete a 7ft. pass to a teammate inside the area is so much more useful, whether the team choose to play long (suddenly can "tee" it up for the big kick upfield) or play short (where they'll have a 2 v 1 from the very moment the goal kick is taken).

The team defending benefit as it they can press earlier.

As always, you have to see these things in motion before we know what the real impact is.
 
Tea and Busquets said:
I think the impact will be negligible.

The team taking the goal kick benefit (or should benefit if the coach is halfway decent) because having the player be able to complete a 7ft. pass to a teammate inside the area is so much more useful, whether the team choose to play long (suddenly can "tee" it up for the big kick upfield) or play short (where they'll have a 2 v 1 from the very moment the goal kick is taken).

The team defending benefit as it they can press earlier.

As always, you have to see these things in motion before we know what the real impact is.
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Having refereed at lead 17 older games using the 2019/2020 LOTG the good defense that understand the change to goal kicks have had an advantage. I still see a lot of offenses that have players set up outside of the penalty area with the keeper playing the ball wide to them and a good number getting intercepted by the better defenders. I have seen 5 goals scored by defenders that have intercepted goal kicks and scored. I am sure this will change as teams adapt to the LOTG changes.
 
Tea and Busquets said:
I
it (or should benefit if the coach is halfway decent) .
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Isn't this the key? The practical effect is that the interception point for a short goalkick will be nearer to the goal since the defending team can press earlier so I'd expect more interceptions particularly when it is played out the backs in the wide. I can just hear it: "we can't risk losing it so close to the goal", particularly for the youngers. If the coach is a panicky type that likes to have the big legged defender kick it long just to be safe, this behavior will be reinforced. If the coach is comfortable playing out the back (or at a minimum having the option of going long or short), the coach will have more options with which to work.

US Soccer cared enough about having teams build from the back by creating the build out line, but the problem (both from observing teams at tryouts/games and as a referee on both the rec and club level) is that once you remove that line, many teams go back to old habits of playing kickball once you remove the line, particularly given our winner-take-all attitude to things like tournaments and league promotions. The new rules expressly have the dropped ball in the box given to the goalkeeper. One modification they might consider is the goalkeeper must take the goalkick.
 
If I was a coach of a 9v9 or 11v11 team, I would have already worked on set plays for when my team is on defense for goal kicks. My forwards would know to stay near the top of the penalty area and practice intercepting goal kicks that are played wide or short. It may work for an easy early goal. If nothing else, it will force the kicking team to play long and put the ball up in the air for either team to be intercept. May as well take advantage of the LOTG change until teams adapt.
 
baldref said:
and the human eye can discern a split second on the ball stopping with a finger on it? in my opinion, that's not the spirit of the law. if she can possess the ball for a discernible time, sure. if it's a split second, then that has to go to the VAR referee in the booth.......
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I'm in the camp of : When it's close, give the advantage for the keeper. But I used to be a keeper, that opinion is not really based on anything I have been taught nor consistent with the tendency for laws to want more goals.
 
Definitelynotanotherref said:
I'm in the camp of : When it's close, give the advantage for the keeper. But I used to be a keeper, that opinion is not really based on anything I have been taught nor consistent with the tendency for laws to want more goals.
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fair enough. but i always looked for reasons not to stop the game as opposed to reasons to stop the game. protect the keepers of course, but not to give any undo advantage. anyway, like has been pointed out, in this instance it's such a scrum and happens so fast, i'm just letting it play out.
 
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