Poll: Changing the Tournament Scene

[MWN]

I'm currently exploring changes that need/should be made to the Tournament scene with an eye on working directly with clubs, leagues and State Association (not only in SoCal, but nationally) to make positive changes. I've identified some things that should be done better, but really want to hear from you all as to what changes you might like to see when it comes to the summer tournament season (June - early September).

Feel free to pick as many options as you want and/or add your own if I missed something you feel is important.

Thanks in advance for helping me out with your opinions.

 

[Grace T.]

I'm currently exploring changes that need/should be made to the Tournament scene with an eye on working directly with clubs, leagues and State Association (not only in SoCal, but nationally) to make positive changes. I've identified some things that should be done better, but really want to hear from you all as to what changes you might like to see when it comes to the summer tournament season (June - early September).

Feel free to pick as many options as you want and/or add your own if I missed something you feel is important.

Thanks in advance for helping me out with your opinions.

Rather than "flexible guest play" I'd instead say more restrictive guest play, particularly at the flight 2 and 3 levels. There was recently a long blow up thread in the soccer announcement boards of coaches/managers complaining that this summer lots of the mega clubs seem to be bringing down players from higher flights to carry their teams from lower flights. The consensus from that discussion seemed to be 1) yes this is happening (saw it once myself this summer), and 2) it's a jerky thing to do.

 

[TangoCity]

I will go with one that isn't listed.

* High Quality Fields

 

[MWN]

I will go with one that isn't listed.

* High Quality Fields

My experience has been that almost all of the "complexes" with 10 or more fields have high quality fields (although winter tournaments (State Cup) can do a number on the fields). Does your experience differ? Are there any complexes that you believe have substandard fields during summer?

 

[timbuck]

I'd say that less tournaments is a good idea. Sure, they are fun. But can anyone tell me why it is a good idea for kids to play 3-6 games over a 36-60 hour time window?

How many tournaments scramble to fill teams a week prior? And when they do this, they usually fill with a team that isn't in the correct flight. I'd like to see tournaments start listing teams as soon as they register. If the bracket is full of teams that we play 6x a year already, why sign up? Or if it's a team from up the street - We can schedule a friendly for free.

Monday morning championship games suck. Regardless of it's a holiday weekend or a workday.

I'd rather play on a single field with free parking than drag out to Norco, Lancaster, Temecula in the heat of summer. Having everything at one place is kinda cool. But keep me closer to the coast.

I'd actually like to see a tournament format that lasts over the course of a week or 2. Like a mini-season with a game every other day during the week. And then seeding for the semi-final and showcase on Saturday. With the final and other showcase games on Sunday.

 

[Zdrone]

• Games filmed with player/parent access to films

No brainer. I just can't imagine a parent saying "God I hate watching my kid play." More like *shoves phone playing youtube in coworkers face "LOOK AT MY KID PLAY"

• One full length game per day (not two shortened games)

This one is tough. An extra day of driving back and forth to *insert insanely far location (Norco/Oceanside/Galway Downs)* or even having your kid have to miss school or some other event Friday/Monday.
Flip side is extra rest between games is probably better for the body but also (assumption on my part) you will get better competition from both sides with the extra rest.

• Scheduling posted weeks in advance

Good luck on this one. We all want it but I'm sure those of you that are/were coaches/managers still get the "STILL TIME TO SIGN UP" or "REDUCED PRICE FOR THIS WEEKEND" emails.
I'm surprised when we get a schedule more than a week out.

• Access to recruiting tools (coach emails, college fits, etc)

I'm unclear on this unless you are talking about showcases or ID type camps.

• Showcases rather than tournaments

Depends. Mid to end of summer a lot of teams are just getting back together after their dark periods. A couple tune up tournaments to get the kids to gel isn't a bad thing. Same thing with the return after the high school season (assuming they are playing/old enough).

• Games at single location, rather than spread around multiple locations

Starting to get in to the more difficult ones. Having a single location (Norco/Oceanside/Galway Downs) is great (ignoring the heat), but realistically how many places are big enough to hold a full tournament (ages/brackets).

• Flexible scheduling (game times and fields can be moved if coaches agree).

Tough again. The tournament directors have hired referees for a certain number of games/locations. We've had games against our in town "rival" 80 miles away. It would be wonderful to grab a local field/ref's and not make the drive but the logistics for the tournament directors would be difficult.

• Fundraising opportunities for teams that do well (return of fees, etc.)

Would be nice but I'm not sure how much incentive it gives to the kids rather than the coaches/parents. As Grace T touched on, it would worry me that the coaches might be more willing to bring and play down kids from higher performing teams.

• Flexible guest player procedures

Same as above but maybe I am unclear on what this would solve for.
I haven't seen issues on my kids team with being able to bring on guest players. We've done it in the past when trying out a kid or when vacation/injuries have depleted the bench.

 

[Eagle33]

Over the years I've seen good and bad tournaments. I personally like "showcase" format tournaments over everything else and I'm glad there are more and more of them every year.
Slightly shortened (5 min each half) 3 games over the weekend. No pressure, no Final. Perfect.

 

[Frank]

Over the years I've seen good and bad tournaments. I personally like "showcase" format tournaments over everything else and I'm glad there are more and more of them every year.
Slightly shortened (5 min each half) 3 games over the weekend. No pressure, no Final. Perfect.

Showcases are fine, however they seem to be more costly than competitive tournaments. I don't know if they cover some of the college coaches travel, etc. as for example the silverlakes showcase is approx. 1300 for 3 games. That just doesn't make sense.

 

[MWN]

Showcases are fine, however they seem to be more costly than competitive tournaments. I don't know if they cover some of the college coaches travel, etc. as for example the silverlakes showcase is approx. 1300 for 3 games. That just doesn't make sense.

The better college showcases will do a few things for the college coaches:

1. Pay for travel and hotel for a few D1 "name brand" colleges and publish that information (who is attending early). When you have certain key programs that are known to do well, other D1 coaches, D2-D3, NAIA, and the JC's take notice and figure out ways to send at least an assistant.
2. Schmooze the coaches with a private tent, free food, drinks, etc. in order to get the coaches to stay on property, be happy/comfortable, etc. The happier the coaches are the better for the recruits.
3. Publish a scouting book with all the athletes at the tournament/showcase that lists Class, Grade, Sat, etc. (when available). These recruiting books are one thing that separates the lesser v. the better showcases.
4. Provide some sort of college seminar in an appropriate meeting space for parents/athletes to learn about the recruiting process direct from the coaches.

The above all costs money. Note, the better regional draw showcases will also be "stay to play," which is a major mechanism in providing the hotel rooms for the showcases. Often hotels will give a free room for every 10 to 15, which often goes directly to the coaches.

 

[Kicker4Life]

The better college showcases will do a few things for the college coaches:

1. Pay for travel and hotel for a few D1 "name brand" colleges and publish that information (who is attending early). When you have certain key programs that are known to do well, other D1 coaches, D2-D3, NAIA, and the JC's take notice and figure out ways to send at least an assistant.
2. Schmooze the coaches with a private tent, free food, drinks, etc. in order to get the coaches to stay on property, be happy/comfortable, etc. The happier the coaches are the better for the recruits.
3. Publish a scouting book with all the athletes at the tournament/showcase that lists Class, Grade, Sat, etc. (when available). These recruiting books are one thing that separates the lesser v. the better showcases.
4. Provide some sort of college seminar in an appropriate meeting space for parents/athletes to learn about the recruiting process direct from the coaches.

The above all costs money. Note, the better regional draw showcases will also be "stay to play," which is a major mechanism in providing the hotel rooms for the showcases. Often hotels will give a free room for every 10 to 15, which often goes directly to the coaches.

So this poll directed only towards posters with OLDERS? YOUNGERS aren’t concerned as much about College attendance.

 

[MWN]

• Games filmed with player/parent access to films

No brainer. I just can't imagine a parent saying "God I hate watching my kid play." More like *shoves phone playing youtube in coworkers face "LOOK AT MY KID PLAY"

• Access to recruiting tools (coach emails, college fits, etc)

I'm unclear on this unless you are talking about showcases or ID type camps.

Both of the above points, in my mind directly impact the college recruiting age players (i.e. not U8). Its often a challenge for many parents trying to put together recruiting videos to get players on film/video. Unless the team pays for the high-rise camera/operator, most potential recruits struggle to get good quality footage.

With regard to the second point, there are a number of sites that charge for basic recruiting assistance (NSCA, College Fit Finder, College U, etc.), in some cases they charge over $1,000 for their services, the main one is my opinion is consolidating college coach contact information. That is what I'm referring too.

 

[MWN]

So this poll directed only towards posters with OLDERS? YOUNGERS aren’t concerned as much about College attendance.

You would be correct that olders are generally more impacted by tournaments/showcases. I'll just note that those youngers become olders fairly quickly.

 

[Kicker4Life]

You would be correct that olders are generally more impacted by tournaments/showcases. I'll just note that those youngers become olders fairly quickly.

Yes...I have 2, one at each end of the age spectrum. However I’ve noticed that at the teams in the Younger Ages tend to do more Tournaments annually than those at the Older Ages. So if your intent is to poll what changes posters would like to see to Tournaments make sure you are considering both in the analysis.

 

[mirage]

So many of the tournaments are nothing more than local teams gathering to play multiple games on a weekend. There's hardly anything special about 90+% of venues.

If you look at the national level showcases (e.g., DA, NC regionals/finals and alike), its played over the week and weekend. Aside from Dallas, Disney and Surf Cup for DA bracket only, we really don't have any multi-day/week long tournaments.

Few years ago, our older son did the Gothia Cup in Gothenburg, Sweeden. It was great. It started on Monday pool play and built up to playoffs that started on Thursday with the final on Sunday. The playoffs had both upper and lower brackets so that the teams didn't go home after 3 games (Mon~Wed), and have at least one playoff game. Additionally, they have an opening ceremony (huge) and a closing. Our team was one of 188 teams in the age group (U16 at the time) and made it to the round of 8, where we lost to the tournament winner who was a professional academy.

Same kid, also played in Cooperstown Classic at the Dreams Park in Cooperstown NY for 12U baseball tournament that was a weeklong. Similar format as the Gothia Cup with opening and closing ceremony (and HR derby, throwing and base running contests too). At this tournament, the kids wee housed with coaches as chaperones and meals included. The week starts with 100 teams.

Now, I'm not suggesting every tournament do this kind of thing but it would be great if we had a regional huge tournaments. For an example, if we had Southern California International Cup, say in late June, early July, at the Great Park (now has 25 soccer fields and a stadium), we could easily do a large scale event. Having been to the Grand Park in Indiana, OCGP has much better weather and fields (though I did like the full sized indoor fields with AC and a bar at the Grand Park). Locally, the venue offers much more diversity for visiting families across the country and the world. Tournament format similar format to the Gothia Cup. Pool play Mon~Wed, playoffs Thurs~Sun with the upper and lower brackets. Opening ceremony Tues evening and closing on Sunday afternoon.

If we had a tournament like this, then maybe all those fill every weekend with tournament mentality will lessen. We just played Albion Cup this weekend for our younger son and it was ho-hum (not because we didn't win it but the whole thing is bland). We could have easily called the coaches we played and scrimmaged them locally without having to goto SD, since we played teams of OC and IE.

Less but more is what we need. Less number of tournaments but bigger, more grandiose tournaments where winning means something and get to play teams from different parts of the country/world.

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

While it would be "nice" to have a lot of these things there is the realistic/economic side to running tournaments and why these things are not common.

• Games filmed with player/parent access to films - $$$
• One full length game per day (not two shortened games) - Need 3 days to play round-robin resulting in longer fields rental $$$
• Scheduling posted weeks in advance - Teams procrastinate in signing up...
• Games at single location, rather than spread around multiple locations - Would limit tournaments to just a few venues
• Flexible scheduling (game times and fields can be moved if coaches agree) - Not easy to do with finite times/field availability
• Fundraising opportunities for teams that do well (return of fees, etc.) - $$$

 

[mirage]

While it would be "nice" to have a lot of these things there is the realistic/economic side to running tournaments and why these things are not common.

• Games filmed with player/parent access to films - $$$
• One full length game per day (not two shortened games) - Need 3 days to play round-robin resulting in longer fields rental $$$
• Scheduling posted weeks in advance - Teams procrastinate in signing up...
• Games at single location, rather than spread around multiple locations - Would limit tournaments to just a few venues
• Flexible scheduling (game times and fields can be moved if coaches agree) - Not easy to do with finite times/field availability
• Fundraising opportunities for teams that do well (return of fees, etc.) - $$$

With such a fable user ID, whey be so Debby downer and pragmatic.....

Its expensive to film/record because its a cottage business and they are taking advantage of parents. It doesn't have to be expensive and if committed to do the whole tournament, the cost/game will drop dramatically.

Longer field rental versus non-use during the day on a weekday can be negotiated so marginally not significant.

If the tournament is prestigious, there is no procrastination - just look at Surf Cup, Dallas, Disney and alike. Even LV Showcase sells out.

Economies of scale for the larger venues. Really should get rid of some of these small tournaments. There are better scrimmages than those games.

Scheduling is complicated with so many coaches w/3 teams these days - agree.

In some of the youth baseball tournaments, there are prize money for the winners. The winner can be guaranteed acceptance for the next tournament (e.g., Manchester Surf Cup winner accepted into Surf Cup). There are other ways than just money.

 

[timbuck]

Recording of games doesn’t have to be crazy expensive. For about $1,200 you could get your own high-boom set up. Find a few parents on your team to split it with. Take turns recording the games. Make sure to focus on the players who chipped in for the camera.
Most service charge about $150 for a full game. Less than $10 per player to have someone do it for you.

 

[Paul Spacey]

Looking at it from a purely developmental perspective (and putting the players first, as we should), the two most important features are:

1. One full length game per day - self explanatory why this is important; we all know the kids are not best served playing multiple games in one day.
2. Showcases rather than tournaments - if this is not obvious, the main benefit is that it (hopefully) reduces some of the intense emphasis that coaches and parents place on winning (although it doesn't remove it completely). The showcase format is much better than the standard tournament format where you can potentially play 4/5 games and everyone is obsessed with making the final.

It's interesting that this board is (I expect) mostly used by parents and coaches and yet the two features above are not rated as the most important. Perhaps this is an indication that we still don't actually know what it is we should be changing to primarily benefit the the players, not ourselves (location and flexible schedules etc benefits parents/coaches but doesn't make a big difference to the players).

 

[pewpew]

If all these changes mean less tournament pins for the backpack and less cheap medals collecting dust on the nightstand then I'm out!!!!!

 

[pewpew]

But what I'd really like to see is tournaments in the summer held with game times starting at 5pm thru last game starting around 9pm for olders
at facilities with lights. Avoid all the HEAT issues. And if these are more meaningful games/showcases/etc then maybe there'll be less teams playing which in turn would make a schedule like this possible. One can still have hope.....