You know as well as I do that there are these two competing interests in the game: one that the game should be interrupted as little as possible to keep the continuous flow (hence the trifling guidance) and two that the game must be managed to keep the game professional and safe for all involved. So while I agree safety is a concern, safety is not the only concern (otherwise we would not allow dangerous 50/50 challenges and instead give rights of way to challenging players such as say for example on a challenge the goalkeeper must always prevail). Just because something is a foul doesn't mean that it should be called, and indeed if this were to happen in the world cup, everyone would be screaming Neymar and for the referee's head. The referee must take into account the skill level of the participants as well as their age and body development. Where referees too often go wrong are between let em play and whistling for everything...a balance is needed given the circumstances which is what makes it so difficult...it can be tough to adjust given varying circumstances on the ground. Cards are also primarily a tool of game management to assist the referee in keeping control of the game. Hence, at this age group for the video presented, foul, no card. Hence also the discrepancies between referees on their outcome of the cast issue (put me down for a hella no...I think some referees are worried that the player's parents will complain to tournament/league organizers and they'll be in for a hassel, hence the no calls).
Playing with hard cast
- Thread starter Surf Zombie
- Start date
You know as well as I do that there are these two competing interests in the game: one that the game should be interrupted as little as possible to keep the continuous flow (hence the trifling guidance) and two that the game must be managed to keep the game professional and safe for all involved. So while I agree safety is a concern, safety is not the only concern (otherwise we would not allow dangerous 50/50 challenges and instead give rights of way to challenging players such as say for example on a challenge the goalkeeper must always prevail). Just because something is a foul doesn't mean that it should be called, and indeed if this were to happen in the world cup, everyone would be screaming Neymar and for the referee's head. The referee must take into account the skill level of the participants as well as their age and body development. Where referees too often go wrong are between let em play and whistling for everything...a balance is needed given the circumstances which is what makes it so difficult...it can be tough to adjust given varying circumstances on the ground. Cards are also primarily a tool of game management to assist the referee in keeping control of the game. Hence, at this age group for the video presented, foul, no card. Hence also the discrepancies between referees on their outcome of the cast issue (put me down for a hella no...I think some referees are worried that the player's parents will complain to tournament/league organizers and they'll be in for a hassel, hence the no calls).
Everyone (minus a few from Yellow team) at the fields were shocked no foul called. If yellow player with the cast made attempt at the ball and knocked my little one off like crazy Rays dd did at ODP tryouts, then I say nothing and "play on" would be my words. BTW, both girls are amazing players, great humans and I have no ills towards the player with the cast. My kid took out another player the other day in Spain in a big friendly and was kindly asked to go sit out the rest of the half. My dd said sorry and all was good. Soccer is physical but calls need to be made. HS Soccer was the worse because dad refs looking to make some extra side hustle can't see or are 100% clueless how to make a call to keep players safe from rough play. It gets heated sometimes and that is where the ref needs to make a stand. Dad ref on here just made it obvious they don't know how to make the game safe. Get the yellows out and call it tight. Cast is a big no no as well. Let's get back to topic before this post goes sideways.....lol!
Soccer Dad & Ref
SILVER ELITE
I’m crushed. The guy that 99% of users on this forum hate just trashed me.
Cast girl would have ended up with the ball by the way if her own teammate hadn’t poked the ball out from under her. If like you say, your dd is the greatest ever, I assume this game was high level and competitive.
And, lol, you showing this doctored video with sound effects to refs that all agree it’s a foul? Lol. Get the 20 seconds before and after, put it with unbiased commentary (I doubt you know what that two-word combination even means) on a major ref forum, and see what they say.
Code
GOLD
Both players were charging the ball, at the same pace. Both players arrived at the ball at the same time. Physical contact was shoulder to shoulder. One player prepared for the collision, one did not. Neither player backed off. Neither player did anything wrong that could be considered a foul. Someone fell down.
Orangeteam
SILVER ELITE
The video stopped quickly after contact was made. The girl who initiated the contact also fell.
The larger girl falls likley because she still had momentum, that she couldn't control, after knocking the smaller girl down.
The video is great, but you need a few seconds more to really get the full view. The fact that both are on the ground should make the ref consider whether this was careless.
The larger girl falls likley because she still had momentum, that she couldn't control, after knocking the smaller girl down.
The video is great, but you need a few seconds more to really get the full view. The fact that both are on the ground should make the ref consider whether this was careless.
graciesdad
BRONZE
This is a foul and a card. No attempt to even play the ball. You let this go it will just escalate. As a referee, you need to control the game and physicality. Too many referees are afraid to call fouls early I guarantee you if you call fouls early the game will clean itself up. If you wait, it is too late.
No way. One player was making an attempt to win the ball. The other player was charging in to force the other player off the ball or impede the player, as witnessed that the hit was of such force the charging player fell over as well. It was excessive therefore to the task, and there is no obvious attempt to win the ball. The argument by soccer ref and dad that she would have ended up with the ball is also untrue, because she knocked herself to the ground.
A few caveats: I buy the argument that the seconds before or after may have changed the equation (we just don't know). I also buy the argument that given the age and lack of body control that ends them both on the ground, this was just careless and not malicious (which still makes it a foul, which is why I wouldn't card at this age, but would if they were older players behaving recklessly or with intent to harm). Orangeteam makes some good points.
Facts: Goat FC team was not really liked by the other teams for many reasons. We were winning and my kid was balling that day and was a target the whole game. Foul for sure and because the team was losing and the pissed off parents were upset because a younger baby team was beating their kiddos team of orders, they wanted the players to play on and play on we did. I say Yellow card 100% and a big warning not to do that again or the Red comes out. Do we want a safer game played? Dad ref thinks she was playing the ball....lol! She was playing my kid and it's obvoius. I understand 99% of the forum hates me so I get why no call shall be called because he hate me. Go Messi!!
You don't need to have control of the ball in order to be fouled. Off ball fouls are still fouls, they are just more likely to be called trifling if they don't have an impact on the game (see the foul controversy in the UCLA v. NC game). For example, in a situation where the 10 has the ball and the 9 decides to make a run at the opposing team goalkeeper to knock them off balance and clear the goal for the 10, it's still a foul even if the GK doesn't have control of the ball: the 9 is making an impact on the game by attempting to remove the GK from play through physical contact and is not making an attempt to in fact play the ball.
This is also not the classic 50/50 ball. The classic example is an aerial challenge where both players make contact attempting to go up and play the ball. However, if one of the players is going up to play the ball, and the other grabs a shirt or attempts to shove the player down away from the ball (rather than win the ball himself) that is a foul since there's no attempt to play the ball.
The proponents of "no foul" seem to be resting their argument on the fact that this is a fair shoulder to shoulder challenge. That's not the end of the analysis however. You have to ask as well was the force used excessive, was there an attempt to play the ball or the player, and what impact it had on play.
It's amazing how people weigh in on how to raise your kid when they don't know you, your kid or all the facts of a situation. IMO its the California nanny state mentality.
As far as playing with a cast, it's your kid, your call. You know the risks involved. I've said this before, to me it not the issue of a hard cast. Elbows are harder. The issue is the massive arm object you create when you add layers of projection. I've seen players us to their advantage to create space. Hard or soft, opposing players don't want to get hit with a massive appendage. Each situation is different, I say let the ref decide.
As far as the foul on Crush's kid...the fact that the charge is done with the shoulder is irrelevant if it is careless, reckless or excessive. I think it is clearly one of those. Not sure where the mindset came that any charge is legal if its done with the shoulder. It's not in the LOTG.
Great call dad. I love you man
Watty, I love you too bro. Great call. I saw game tonight and one dude from Croatia fouled using shoulder to knock the little guy from Argentina and not play the ball and foul was called. No yellow, just a foul. I'm shocked people on here think that's a no call. I respectfully disagree.
Each situation is different, though. You can use your natural size advantage to knock someone off the ball with your shoulder, hip, body etc without it qualifying as a foul. My son was on the losing end of that equation a lot in his soccer career and no foul was called much to the protests of my wife. IMO the girl who charged your daughter used more than just her natural size advantage. In my mind she used her shoulder as a weapon, not a tool.
Code
GOLD
No need to bring up a bunch of differnt scenarios to avoid answering a simple question. You are now arguing an off ball foul, when you were previouly arguing the player was pushed off the ball. Which is it? Neither player was not knocked off the ball, because they never had the ball. Neither player was impeded, they arrived at the ball in the same location at the same time, with equal speed attempting to gain possesion of the ball at play. They are equally responsible for this specific shoulder to shoulder contact; neither player was obligated or expected to back off. Excessive force was not used, because they were both moving at the same speed with the same intent. Shoulder to shoulder impact happened, and the player still on her feet continued in the direction of the ball, not on a tangent. One player was playing eyes up and aware of the impending challenge, the other player was focused only on the ball, eyes down and unaware of what was happening around her. That is not a foul, its a bad challenge technique that caused the player to end up on the ground. The challenge could have went either way. Sorry for highjacking the cast thread into a 50/50 challenge thread. Casts are dangerous to other players, even if they are bubblewrapped.
I'm granting you your argument that it is an off the ball foul or a 50/50. I'm saying o.k....you have a point but it's immaterial... it doesn't make a difference. It's still a foul, for the reasons previously stated. Your point that it is an off the ball or a 50/50 doesn't magically change a foul into a no foul for reasons previously stated.
Orangeteam
SILVER ELITE
back to the cast question.
If you slow the video down even further than the slow motion that is already done you can see she throws her casted hand up in the air. Mostly likely she realized she's falling and can't use it to brace her fall
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As I stated above in post#8. Wrapping the cast is not only about the other players. The safety of the player with the cast is in question. Her balance and how is is trying to fall isn't natural and can lead to hurting herself. I'm sure alot of kids make it through a game and don't get hurt, but an awareness that the risk is higher is something to be aware of.
If you slow the video down even further than the slow motion that is already done you can see she throws her casted hand up in the air. Mostly likely she realized she's falling and can't use it to brace her fall
.
As I stated above in post#8. Wrapping the cast is not only about the other players. The safety of the player with the cast is in question. Her balance and how is is trying to fall isn't natural and can lead to hurting herself. I'm sure alot of kids make it through a game and don't get hurt, but an awareness that the risk is higher is something to be aware of.
Out of curiosity where do you believe the LOTG have this "safe harbor" guidance for shoulder to shoulder contact? I know the ATR had a "fair charge" concept but the ATR is no longer relevant, accurate or authoritative. The ATR was retired years ago.
That's a great common sense approach. Communication is usually the best way to go as opposed to a "hard, no" or an "unconditional yes".