Let the Principals & Teachers Decide

Justafan said:
You're on, as long as it's apples to apples, let's do it. We'll test the kids baseline first day of class then test them last day of class. Teachers who improve kids' performance the most win. Top public school teachers will CRUSH the privates and charters!
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They don’t know what they don’t know.
 
Justafan said:
You're on, as long as it's apples to apples, let's do it. We'll test the kids baseline first day of class then test them last day of class. Teachers who improve kids' performance the most win. Top public school teachers will CRUSH the privates and charters!
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Thats great, I welcome top public schools to continue to get great results, lets close the failing ones now since it takes an act of God to fire a bad teacher unless they touch a student.
 
watfly said:
I agree with your protections but believe 1) is overkill and impractical. Although, if you were shoving a stick up kids nose everyday that would solve the issue of needing to have schools open! The CDC testing recommendation for schools is as follows:
  • Testing individuals with signs or symptoms consistent with COVID-19
  • Testing asymptomatic individuals with recent known or suspected exposure to SARS-CoV-2 to control transmission
The tests do need to be made readily available and of the rapid result type.

I don't think we're crapping on teachers, we're more so crapping on the power of the teachers' unions. Teachers should be given the same common sense protections that other essential workers that have been physically at work (in some cases during the entire pandemic) and make special accommodations for teachers with vulnerable conditions. Our main complaint is that kids are getting crapped on in direct conflict to a solid consensus of science that says the risks of not going back to school are greater than the Covid risks for kids.
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And yes, I'm talking about the less invasive rapid result Abbot test. I don't think that test is overkill and it just comes down to a matter of cost (and production of course). But let's assume we need to produce another 100,000 of those machines, if we get on it today 7/23, maybe we can have a majority of them within 30 days, soon enough to save the school year.

And yes, our kids are the losers. And yes, kids appear safe for the most part and don't appear to spread it as easily. Again, I would send my kids to school today, 5 days a week. I'm not worried about my kids. And although my wife and I are higher risk because of age, I'd be willing to take on the risk to myself for their sake.

My twin dd's are 16. In the last 2 weeks, two very close friends of theirs have had mental breakdowns. I get a call form my buddy at 1:00 a.m. a week and half ago telling me his dd (also 16 and one of dd's best friends) locked herself in the bathroom, crying uncontrollably for about an hour, didn't want to talk to anybody, but was willing to talk to my dd. Took both my dd's over his house and they stayed with her until I picked them up at 5:00 a.m. The other situation was similar but less severe.

And when it comes to my own dd's, shoot, they wake up at 12:30 - 1:00 p.m., they make their way downstairs to get something to eat, start binge watching something on Netflix till dinner time at 7:00 ish, we're lucky if they feel like talking about ANYTHING during dinner, they hangout downstairs till about 9:30 watching something or Tik Tok'ing, then they go up to their rooms and Tik Tok till 5 or 6 a.m. That's a typical day. This is so unhealthy it's not even funny.

They did workout on their own for about the first month of the lockdown, but nothing since. The motivation is simply not there, at least with my dd's. From what I've seen, it's a little bit different with boys. But with girls my dd's age, base, on talking to other parents, I think this is more the norm than not. So, I absolutely want my dd's physically back in school
 
oh canada said:

From the Wash Post:

Let’s agree for the sake of argument that the next school year is going to be terrible. The federal government and the states are at odds over when to put kids back in classrooms. Planning by superintendents and school boards is both messy and tardy. Whatever is decided will probably crumble in the next coronavirus surge.

It will be a disaster. What should we do?
Here is a suggestion only the bravest and smartest school board members will ever consider: Let principals and teachers decide. They know their students better than anyone except parents, who would just as soon get back to work. If school staff are allowed to try their best ideas, some might click. The results can’t be any worse than what will happen anyway.

Tell each principal and teacher how many students they are going to have and let them sort it out. They must have the courage to put forth their ideas. Clever superintendents and principals should urge teachers to speak up. The only limits should be common sense, the resources at hand and the law. Parents would have to be consulted, but they will be happy for any help given the load that was dumped on them in March with no warning.

A few weeks ago I asked readers for ideas. Many of those who replied were teachers. Much of what they said was compelling and worth trying.
Why not create student pairs for reading and discussion? Even without the latest gadgets they could link up from their homes using my favorite ancient technology, the telephone. They could read to each other. They could discuss the questions teachers sent them while enjoying the contact with each other so many have missed.

How about assigning every student an hour of reading each evening with a parent or older sibling? That is what many families do anyway. Why not make it a requirement? It would be free of the stress that comes with regular homework, trying to figure out answers.
Some readers told me sources of learning in communities are being overlooked: museums, parks, recreation centers, local businesses and colleges. In this emergency, such enterprises could join with educators to put together something different that might engage students online.

If some classes are scheduled at school, why not try more art and music? There is no way in these circumstances we’re going to make much progress in reading, writing and arithmetic. Why not do something fun and cut down on no-shows?

The best students can be asked to work with those who need help. Children might suggest their own projects. They could walk around their block and write about what they found most interesting. They could bake cookies based on the official recipe, and then try different proportions and report the results.
The best charter schools have made good use of their freedom from old school district rules and biases. Why shouldn’t teachers and principals at regular public schools have a chance to do that, at least during this crisis?

I have praised the Uncommon charter schools in New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts for their close attention to classroom practices in these difficult times. They have found that prerecorded videos are often the best way to teach online. Phone calls to homes, they say, reveal the best ways to encourage participation by students who aren’t logging in.

Why can’t regular school staff do that? They know their students as well as teachers in charter schools know theirs. Some of the most successful charter school leaders got their best ideas when they were still working in regular schools, being told they could not do what they wanted to do. The vast majority of our teachers still work in regular schools. Why can’t they use unconventional but sensible methods, such as visiting families at home to help them get ready for school? Union leaders should reconsider telling creative teachers to do less, as revealed by my colleague Laura Meckler in her big story about a San Francisco school.

I sound like I am giving up on the new school year before it starts. I am. We have to admit this will be the worst school year ever. No one knows exactly what will happen, but it will not be good. What we face is an extreme combination of hurricanes, tornadoes, major earthquakes and the day my drill sergeant ordered us to set up our barracks outside.

We have to get through it. We must look forward to the day we put it behind us. With a free hand, the professionals who will eventually have to clean up this mess might be able to experiment with fresh ideas we all can learn from.
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Are principals and teachers scientists?Epidemiologists? No? OK, I guess that’s settled.
 
MSK357 said:
Thats great, I welcome top public schools to continue to get great results, lets close the failing ones now since it takes an act of God to fire a bad teacher unless they touch a student.
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Whatcha gonna do with the kids at the closed schools? Send them to the “good schools” and double class size? Brilliant.
 
EOTL said:
Whatcha gonna do with the kids at the closed schools? Send them to the “good schools” and double class size? Brilliant.
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No genius, send them charter schools, homeschool, or give vouchers. Have you been paying attention?
 
Grace T. said:
The protect the larger public argument though goes out the window if you allow the kids to go to day care like New York and Los Angeles are doing. Then you are just doing it for the teachers.
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B.S. This is not an all-or-nothing in which no one is helped if anyone is allowed to congregate. Online school will absolutely, positively save many lives. Students. Teachers. Family.

Hard choices must be made. Making all kids and teachers go back to the classroom just because daycares are allowed to stay open is open is some really, really bad logic. Actually, it’s not logic at all.
Even if daycares stay open, online school will save many lives.

Oh, and how dare a union save the f**king lives of its members, right? Upton Sinclair just ruined things for everyone. What a d**k that guy was.
 
EOTL said:
Whatcha gonna do with the kids at the closed schools? Send them to the “good schools” and double class size? Brilliant.
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You dont have to take my word for it, just listen to cory booker, even Barack Obama expanded charter schools. You should really watch this documentary


Its mainly the racist white democrats that want to keep POC in failing schools. Close the bad schools. Charter schools help. Keep both accountable to include teachers. Unions don't want that. They exist to help teachers, not the students.
 
JumboJack said:
In LA county, schools are not going to be allowed to open for in person classes. So what are they going to do about families that can't stay home and be with their kids while the "distance learn"? They are going to open classrooms and community centers so kids can come and do their "distance learning" in a classroom setting with the help of adult aids... You know, JUST LIKE IN A CLASSROOM!
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This is the problem...stupid, stupid everywhere...who comes up with these ideas? Who are these morons...WE ALL elected them...maybe next time, let’s not vote on party lines, and vote for the most qualified, intelligent, and capable individuals, maybe people with real world experience...even if you don’t agree with everything they say stand for. Vote for the best person to get the job done. There is a difference and everyone knows it...we definitely need more AOC’s...
 
MSK357 said:
No genius, send them charter schools, homeschool, or give vouchers. Have you been paying attention?
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Sure. A poor family will just home school their kid. I mean, who needs an income? The voucher idea is also stupid. Sorry we closed your school. Here’s a check for a pittance. I’m sure you’ll be fine. And closing public schools and reopening them by slapping the word “charter” onto the name also accomplishes nothing. The only thing that happens is that teachers get paid less, so you get worse teachers.

The charter school/public school game is a classic prisoner’s dilemma. If a group “betrays” the public school group and opens a charter school, it “wins” to the public school group’s detriment so long as the public school group doesn’t “betray” them back and also go the charter school route. If everyone goes the charter school route, however, they both end up doing worse than if no one had “betrayed” and they just stayed where they were. If everyone just opens a charter school, everyone loses overall. All you’ve done is rename all the public schools and pay teachers less, and you get what you pay for.

Even legitimate charter schools are a sham in the that the only thing holding them together is the fact that many decent teachers will take less money and awful benefits for a while in exchange for the ease of working with kids who are already uniformly good students. But in addition to that being bad for society as a whole, it obviously won’t work for most because even the higher (but still woefully inadequate) pay that public school teachers get in areas where teaching isn’t easy would decrease in a charter system, resulting in even worse teachers who don’t have the benefit of easy teaching. The whole point of charter schools is to stick it to teachers.
 
Justafan said:
And yes, I'm talking about the less invasive rapid result Abbot test. I don't think that test is overkill and it just comes down to a matter of cost (and production of course). But let's assume we need to produce another 100,000 of those machines, if we get on it today 7/23, maybe we can have a majority of them within 30 days, soon enough to save the school year.

And yes, our kids are the losers. And yes, kids appear safe for the most part and don't appear to spread it as easily. Again, I would send my kids to school today, 5 days a week. I'm not worried about my kids. And although my wife and I are higher risk because of age, I'd be willing to take on the risk to myself for their sake.

My twin dd's are 16. In the last 2 weeks, two very close friends of theirs have had mental breakdowns. I get a call form my buddy at 1:00 a.m. a week and half ago telling me his dd (also 16 and one of dd's best friends) locked herself in the bathroom, crying uncontrollably for about an hour, didn't want to talk to anybody, but was willing to talk to my dd. Took both my dd's over his house and they stayed with her until I picked them up at 5:00 a.m. The other situation was similar but less severe.

And when it comes to my own dd's, shoot, they wake up at 12:30 - 1:00 p.m., they make their way downstairs to get something to eat, start binge watching something on Netflix till dinner time at 7:00 ish, we're lucky if they feel like talking about ANYTHING during dinner, they hangout downstairs till about 9:30 watching something or Tik Tok'ing, then they go up to their rooms and Tik Tok till 5 or 6 a.m. That's a typical day. This is so unhealthy it's not even funny.

They did workout on their own for about the first month of the lockdown, but nothing since. The motivation is simply not there, at least with my dd's. From what I've seen, it's a little bit different with boys. But with girls my dd's age, base, on talking to other parents, I think this is more the norm than not. So, I absolutely want my dd's physically back in school
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So sorry to hear about your friends' kids, that's heartbreaking. I have 16 year old daughter as well, and she has certainly been more impacted than my 12 yo boy, but not too badly. Girls typically need more social than my boys. My boy would bang out what little homework he had, then go fishing. He thought he died and gone to heaven...but that's not a sustainable proposition. He didn't touch a soccer ball the entire pandemic except for a couple zoom practices. Its been a good break for him after going non-stop for 2 years of DA.

Now, we've allowed our kids to socialize with other kids, within reason, for a few months. We've felt that our kids overall health is more important than the low risk of Covid. The parents of the other kids feel the same way. It's mostly been with the same defined group of kids. I'm not aware of any kids that have been on full lockdown. Hope driving is going well for your girls. I was a glorious day when my daughter got her license.

Best of luck to you, and yours.
 
EOTL said:
B.S. This is not an all-or-nothing in which no one is helped if anyone is allowed to congregate. Online school will absolutely, positively save many lives. Students. Teachers. Family.

Hard choices must be made. Making all kids and teachers go back to the classroom just because daycares are allowed to stay open is open is some really, really bad logic. Actually, it’s not logic at all.
Even if daycares stay open, online school will save many lives.

Oh, and how dare a union save the f**king lives of its members, right? Upton Sinclair just ruined things for everyone. What a d**k that guy was.
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Well, if you feel that way that it's just about reducing the amounts then private and charters should be given the waivers, if it's not all or nothing.

I think unions have been a great force for good and are necessary to even out employer bargaining power. However, like FDR I've been skeptical of the public sector unions. Recent events have convinced me it's not a good idea to have either the police or the teachers (or any other government employee) unionized.
 
MSK357 said:
You dont have to take my word for it, just listen to cory booker, even Barack Obama expanded charter schools. You should really watch this documentary


Its mainly the racist white democrats that want to keep POC in failing schools. Close the bad schools. Charter schools help. Keep both accountable to include teachers. Unions don't want that. They exist to help teachers, not the students.
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I get that many people hoped charter schools would free up children in impoverished areas to attend schools in better areas. Unfortunately, they significantly underestimated those forces that prevent that from happening. In fact, Obama’s idea of how the charter system would work is so different from what Betsy DeVos’ that it’s almost a crime to use the same word. Affluent families found many ways to exploit charters against the poor, primarily minorities, many of which I have already discussed here, and the incompetent Ditzy DeVos has weaponized those methods.
 
EOTL said:
Sure. A poor family will just home school their kid. I mean, who needs an income? The voucher idea is also stupid. Sorry we closed your school. Here’s a check for a pittance. I’m sure you’ll be fine. And closing public schools and reopening them by slapping the word “charter” onto the name also accomplishes nothing. The only thing that happens is that teachers get paid less, so you get worse teachers.

The charter school/public school game is a classic prisoner’s dilemma. If a group “betrays” the public school group and opens a charter school, it “wins” to the public school group’s detriment so long as the public school group doesn’t “betray” them back and also go the charter school route. If everyone goes the charter school route, however, they both end up doing worse than if no one had “betrayed” and they just stayed where they were. If everyone just opens a charter school, everyone loses overall. All you’ve done is rename all the public schools and pay teachers less, and you get what you pay for.

Even legitimate charter schools are a sham in the that the only thing holding them together is the fact that many decent teachers will take less money and awful benefits for a while in exchange for the ease of working with kids who are already uniformly good students. But in addition to that being bad for society as a whole, it obviously won’t work for most because even the higher (but still woefully inadequate) pay that public school teachers get in areas where teaching isn’t easy would decrease in a charter system, resulting in even worse teachers who don’t have the benefit of easy teaching. The whole point of charter schools is to stick it to teachers.
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check out the video. If you were a parent with a child in a failing school, wouldnt you want options? many of these failing schools have been failing for decades which is why communities are asking for vouchers and charter schools. They want options. the customer, tax paying citizens with school aged kids want options. throwing money at them, the democrat way, hasnt worked. The money doesnt trickle down to the students. I feel you are speaking from an ivory tower. The hundreds of people on a waiting list to escape failing schools would disagree with you. Its time to put yourself in these parents and students shoes instead of white racist democrats who get massive donations from teachers unions. The good thing is even democrats are coming around, Cory booker being one. This pandemic might be the catalyst to school choice as we now see middle and upper income parents getting on waiting lists for online charter schools since they are dissatisfied with zoom distance learning. lets see what happens.
 
Desert Hound said:
There is no logical consistency.

The only thing logically consistent is this. The unions and teachers do not want to be in class. These community centers with kids and adults...the adults won't be teachers. So for the union and teachers that is a win win. For the kids a substandard eduation.

And for the rest of us? We wonder if someone can propose this as a solution...why not just be in a classroom as you said above? How is one safe? But the other (actual classrooms) a safety concern?

Madness.
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Are there any teachers / principals / aids / counselors / etc that don't feel safe from COVID in school but they are totally fine with sending their kid to an "undercover" soccer practice?
 
Grace T. said:
Well, if you feel that way that it's just about reducing the amounts then private and charters should be given the waivers, if it's not all or nothing.

I think unions have been a great force for good and are necessary to even out employer bargaining power. However, like FDR I've been skeptical of the public sector unions. Recent events have convinced me it's not a good idea to have either the police or the teachers (or any other government employee) unionized.
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No. All primary schools represent an inappropriately high transmission risk to too many people and - especially at the HS level - there is feasible alternative, online education. You can’t day care online. Day care is a necessary evil, so to speak. And day care transmissions will be mitigated by the steep decline in participation both due to the massive layoffs that have freed many parents up, as well as those who consider the risk to their baby to be too great.
 
MSK357 said:
check out the video. If you were a parent with a child in a failing school, wouldnt you want options? many of these failing schools have been failing for decades which is why communities are asking for vouchers and charter schools. They want options. the customer, tax paying citizens with school aged kids want options. throwing money at them, the democrat way, hasnt worked. The money doesnt trickle down to the students. I feel you are speaking from an ivory tower. The hundreds of people on a waiting list to escape failing schools would disagree with you. Its time to put yourself in these parents and students shoes instead of white racist democrats who get massive donations from teachers unions. The good thing is even democrats are coming around, Cory booker being one. This pandemic might be the catalyst to school choice as we now see middle and upper income parents getting on waiting lists for online charter schools since they are dissatisfied with zoom distance learning. lets see what happens.
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There is nothing you said that I haven’t already explained why it is wrong. If you put all the pro-charter school people in one room, and those against in another, I know for certain which room would be called the Ivory Tower.
 
EOTL said:
There is nothing you said that I haven’t already explained why it is wrong. If you put all the pro-charter school people in one room, and those against in another, I know for certain which room would be called the Ivory Tower.
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How many kids or parents of kids do you know in charter schools? be honest. Are they in ivory towers?
 
EOTL said:
Are principals and teachers scientists?Epidemiologists? No? OK, I guess that’s settled.
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Simple minded response, as usual. There's no nuance to your insight, just like the governor's and teacher union's. Either all schools are closed or all or open based on "our" statewide standards. Let me help you...while teachers and principals likely don't hold M.D.s or infectious disease specialties, schools that are/were trying to come up with safe and thoughtful plans to reopen in-person were consulting school-formed committees, boards and school parents who do have that expertise AND live in the community AND have kids in the school district. You think the state doctor who hasn't treated patients in 20 years and lives 500 miles away has a better grip on a school's capability of reopening vs. a pediatrician Mom who has two kids at the school? Yeah, ok.
 
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