It's all in a name....

han78216 said:
In Norcal, De Anza Force implemented a new team designation scheme with age group change.

USSDA
ECNL
Year/Sex team number - 05B I, 06G II, 06B III, etc

I'm pretty sure other clubs don't like it since it clearly shows team 3 is in same flight as their top team.
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yes! this is soon simple! we need this is socal
 
younothat said:
Seen it work in reality so I'm going to disagree with you. Of course, you need a big enough pool so there is enough level 1,2,3's whatever to make it work
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How would a top level player benefit from consistently training with/against weaker opposition? please explain how that makes sense... Iron sharpens iron, no? I understand how the weaker players would improve, and I understand how it would benefit the club as a whole... How on earth would that benefit an elite player?
 
SoccerDad77 said:
How would a top level player benefit from consistently training with/against weaker opposition? please explain how that makes sense... Iron sharpens iron, no? I understand how the weaker players would improve, and I understand how it would benefit the club as a whole... How on earth would that benefit an elite player?
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So at work do you separate/segregate workers based on ability? Only the best workers work together and all the other get to work with groups made of employees with lesser abilities. Of course not!

Have you ever done age group training with a group of players at different levels? When you have enough players at a certain level, good training, and coaching there is plenty of "iron" to sharpen the iron.

Benefits all the players, club, and gives them something different rather than the same 14-16 players they normally train with all the time. Nobody is suggesting all the training should be age group only but rather as much as possible as indicated by the first poster that suggested this.

Some clubs started the age group training last year to go along with the calender year change but then went back to the old ways after tryouts. People where happy in general about the age group training concept but most clubs failed to follow through. The calender year change seems like the ideal time to implement regular age group trainings.

If your only concern is what might be best for a small population of "elite" players then why join a club in the first place? How are we going to raise the level of soccer for everybody by focusing on such as small group of players? Sharing resources like the fields, coaches, and players is one way to help equalize the current divide.
 
younothat said:
Seen it work in reality so I'm going to disagree with you. Of course, you need a big enough pool so there is enough level 1,2,3's whatever to make it work
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Was your kid a 1, 2 or 3? What club in socal is big enough were they had 20 - 24 #1's. That does not exist anywhere in So Cal because not 1 ECNL or top non ECNL team can make that claim.
 
younothat said:
So at work do you separate/segregate workers based on ability? Only the best workers work together and all the other get to work with groups made of employees with lesser abilities. Of course not!

Have you ever done age group training with a group of players at different levels? When you have enough players at a certain level, good training, and coaching there is plenty of "iron" to sharpen the iron.

Benefits all the players, club, and gives them something different rather than the same 14-16 players they normally train with all the time. Nobody is suggesting all the training should be age group only but rather as much as possible as indicated by the first poster that suggested this.

Some clubs started the age group training last year to go along with the calender year change but then went back to the old ways after tryouts. People where happy in general about the age group training concept but most clubs failed to follow through. The calender year change seems like the ideal time to implement regular age group trainings.

If your only concern is what might be best for a small population of "elite" players then why join a club in the first place? How are we going to raise the level of soccer for everybody by focusing on such as small group of players? Sharing resources like the fields, coaches, and players is one way to help equalize the current divide.
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Have you ever seen the Barca 1st team train with the segunda team as whole? The answer is no. The level of the segunda team is not going to help the 1st team. That is why they only move a couple into the rotation so it benefits the lower player but is not a general detriment to the 1st team players. In local perspective if you are on the top team in your club do you train with or against the lower teams on a regular basis? Please tell me how that benefits the A team?
 
pulguita said:
Have you ever seen the Barca 1st team train with the segunda team as whole? The answer is no. The level of the segunda team is not going to help the 1st team. That is why they only move a couple into the rotation so it benefits the lower player but is not a general detriment to the 1st team players. In local perspective if you are on the top team in your club do you train with or against the lower teams on a regular basis? Please tell me how that benefits the A team?
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For pro soccer that might be the case but the Barcelona Youth academy does group training by age groups.

The training exercises at La Masia are the same for every team, regardless of whether it is the U8 or U16 team.

The philosophy of treating everyone equally is very important at Barcelona, this is simply because they understand that the students could be future first team players and therefore deserve to be treated in this way.

Interclub soccer is not about training against your own other teams but with your players in the age group that are part of that club. Why is what only benefits the "A" team your primary concern?
 
younothat said:
For pro soccer that might be the case but the Barcelona Youth academy does group training by age groups.

The training exercises at La Masia are the same for every team, regardless of whether it is the U8 or U16 team.

The philosophy of treating everyone equally is very important at Barcelona, this is simply because they understand that the students could be future first team players and therefore deserve to be treated in this way.

Interclub soccer is not about training against your own other teams but with your players in the age group that are part of that club. Why is what only benefits the "A" team your primary concern?
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They are the same training programs for everybody but there are A and B teams and other than generalized skill training they do not train as a combined group. So if you are talking about a club wide skill night where everyone trains together by age ok. But they do not once you get to a team environment and tactical instruction.
 
pulguita said:
Was your kid a 1, 2 or 3? What club in socal is big enough were they had 20 - 24 #1's. That does not exist anywhere in So Cal because not 1 ECNL or top non ECNL team can make that claim.
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Both my kids are 1's I've been told but neither started that way. They will train with friends, clubs members, schoolmates or whomever. I have never heard them say that training with those players is not beneficial to both parties, rarely are the kids at the same level either.

There are clubs with 6 or more teams in an age group so why can't they find enough players to have meaningful group training sessions? I've seen these work /w smaller numbers also say 10 #1 and around the same amout of #2's for example.
 
younothat said:
So at work do you separate/segregate workers based on ability? Only the best workers work together and all the other get to work with groups made of employees with lesser abilities. Of course not!

Have you ever done age group training with a group of players at different levels? When you have enough players at a certain level, good training, and coaching there is plenty of "iron" to sharpen the iron.

Benefits all the players, club, and gives them something different rather than the same 14-16 players they normally train with all the time. Nobody is suggesting all the training should be age group only but rather as much as possible as indicated by the first poster that suggested this.

Some clubs started the age group training last year to go along with the calender year change but then went back to the old ways after tryouts. People where happy in general about the age group training concept but most clubs failed to follow through. The calender year change seems like the ideal time to implement regular age group trainings.

If your only concern is what might be best for a small population of "elite" players then why join a club in the first place? How are we going to raise the level of soccer for everybody by focusing on such as small group of players? Sharing resources like the fields, coaches, and players is one way to help equalize the current divide.
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Why join a club in the first place? To play with other players of elite ability level no? If you wanted to train and play with weaker players, save yourself thousands and stay in Rec soccer...
 
SoccerDad77 said:
Why join a club in the first place? To play with other players of elite ability level no? If you wanted to train and play with weaker players, save yourself thousands and stay in Rec soccer...
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True ... Although that can also be said of the players on the so-called 2nd team.
 
jrcaesar said:
True ... Although that can also be said of the players on the so-called 2nd team.
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Yeah and the 3-6 team in the age group as well.

Soccer dad, I get your prospective about the "elite" players which if fine. What I'm referring to is all the players in a club. The other 5 teams in the age group or 190 teams in a club such as Pats.

Don't they all deserve to be treated equally and share in resources of the community?

If they need iron to sharpen iron where do suppose they have access to the iron?

How do suppose these other players and teams improve? By only playing against themselfs with coaches or trainers not at a higher level?

If somebody in your community needs mentoring, assistance, or help do you send your best people or only those at the same level or lower as the requesters?

We normally form& join communities for the greater good not just to serve a elite or small number of users.
 
mahrez said:
Yeah and the 3-6 team in the age group as well.

Soccer dad, I get your prospective about the "elite" players which if fine. What I'm referring to is all the players in a club. The other 5 teams in the age group or 190 teams in a club such as Pats.

Don't they all deserve to be treated equally and share in resources of the community?

If they need iron to sharpen iron where do suppose they have access to the iron?

How do suppose these other players and teams improve? By only playing against themselfs with coaches or trainers not at a higher level?

If somebody in your community needs mentoring, assistance, or help do you send your best people or only those at the same level or lower as the requesters?

We normally form& join communities for the greater good not just to serve a elite or small number of users.
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This is not socialism this is club soccer. When looking for a club it was best team with the best coach with the best players for the level of my kid. It was not gee will we train with B and C players too. You are advocating an AYSO mentality for club. There is no truly professional club in the US they are all a degree of Rec. Why do I say that? If the club was truly professional there would be tryouts every year for the A and B squad. There is a 1 year commitment. At the end of the year you are asked to stay or leave. Everyone is fully paid for. There is no parent intervention. You do what the club says. If they keep you you eventually get to the first team, If not you are sold for a fee to another team. Don't think anyone here in the states is ready for that. So I will look for the environment that provides my child with what I believe is the best developmental environment. Further, does every student deserve to be in an AP class or honors class? They all deserve great teachers but don't confuse those in the class with the teacher. I believe clubs should provide the same quality of trainer regardless of level. That is easier said then done.
 
Dargle said:
It's mostly marketing, although in part clubs use it to distinguish among multiple teams within the same age group. Academy doesn't mean anything unless they are a USSDA club, in which case they usually use that designation rather than Academy. PDA is used to signify Pre-Development Academy, which could be significant in a USSDA club, but because it is for ages before Dev. Academy kicks in, it is quite loose. For example, several USSDA clubs have a PDA-I and PDA-II team, which basically means they have about 24 kids who are in the group of kids they are considering for Academy at U12. Problem is that if the PDA-II team is playing Flight II, for example, which I have seen, then that is probably an admission that the "PDA-II" designation means those kids aren't really being considered on par with the PDA-I kids and at most only a few of them would actually be candidates for Academy next year (and, in truth, those clubs could easily recruit an entirely new team for academy and the PDA designation only meant that they were the best of what they had at the time).

The colors like gold, black, white etc, are usually just the way clubs distinguish between teams at the age group and they represent the colors of the club uniforms. There are plenty of red, white, and blue teams too. A few clubs use the Coast Soccer League designation to identify the teams, in which case premier and silver actually mean something very specific. Otherwise, they are just names to indicate the order of their teams.

As for the directional add-ons, that is a function of club mergers that have made almost every team a surf, striker, FCGS, Pateadores, TFA etc. In many cases, if the team has a directional signal after their name, all bets are off about quality because they are really just a different club altogether from the mother ship.
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Umm PDA means Players Development Academy. I know that you are being tongue in cheek but...
 
pulguita said:
This is not socialism this is club soccer. When looking for a club it was best team with the best coach with the best players for the level of my kid. It was not gee will we train with B and C players too. You are advocating an AYSO mentality for club. There is no truly professional club in the US they are all a degree of Rec. Why do I say that? If the club was truly professional there would be tryouts every year for the A and B squad. There is a 1 year commitment. At the end of the year you are asked to stay or leave. Everyone is fully paid for. There is no parent intervention. You do what the club says. If they keep you you eventually get to the first team, If not you are sold for a fee to another team. Don't think anyone here in the states is ready for that. So I will look for the environment that provides my child with what I believe is the best developmental environment. Further, does every student deserve to be in an AP class or honors class? They all deserve great teachers but don't confuse those in the class with the teacher. I believe clubs should provide the same quality of trainer regardless of level. That is easier said then done.
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If my kid was in the first team, I would want my kid to practice with players in first team only.

But if my was in the second team, I would want him to practice with first team players.
He will be motivated and will improve if you practice with others better than you.

It's not an easy problem to solve.

If your club is large enough then there are ways to make it happen.

Let's say there are 5 teams in your age group. There is no point of having team 1 practice against team 5.
It will be just waste of everyone's time.

How about 2/3 weekly practices, the team practice by itself.
For one of practices, you practice with upper team one week. and practice with lower team one week.

A reasonable compromise can be reached I believe.
 
Honestly, the way the clubs handle kids under 15 and those over 15 ought to be totally different. This discussion, and the other thread on Bigger, Stronger, etc., both illustrate what I think is the weakest part of the US "system" (using that term loosely) of player development. Pulguita points out that training all the players together does nothing for the "A" team and that they look for the "best" team to play on when choosing a club. The parents (who are driving the market) are focused on getting their kids to play in college and get those mythical scholarships. The best way to get exposure? Play with/or against the top ranked teams. How to be top ranked? Win. So everything is always boiling down to "win." That would be no real problem for HS age players, but when you're talking about ranking teams of 10 year-olds, I think it is easy to see why we struggle to develop real soccer talent in our country over the long haul. What it takes to win in youth soccer at 11 is not necessarily what it takes to win at the college level, pro level, or internationally. From my (admittedly limited) understanding of youth development in Europe and South America, it isn't about gaming circuits, rankings, or winning until you've hooked onto a pro club. The youth clubs develop players to feed them to semi-pro and pro clubs. So their focus is on producing amazing individual players who are a commodity. We focus on building teams to win trophies. I think that does translate into some positives, as our USMNT often play with a certain winning attitude that other countries lack, but when we are getting absolutely schooled by teams with superior skills, I just think about all those parents and coaches and clubs who focus on winning trophies at the U-little level and getting on the "Elite" or "Premier" or "A" team and wonder if they will ever get it.
 
SoccerDad77 said:
You like bringing this up don't you? Is your son/daughter on a "bottom" team? Of course clubs put their best resources into the best talent... Typically, those are the players that make the club successful (improve the club reputation by going on to play in college/win big tournaments/get selected for national teams/ play professionally/etc.), things clubs can market to keep the machine humming along... small minority of the time do you see a lower level player end up "making it" whatever definition you choose for that to mean... What's the alternative? Would you prefer the best coaches and fields go to the worse players and the top kids get inferior coaching and facilities? Or better yet, the best coaches just coach 8-10 teams? Imagine the hissy fit parents here would throw if that was the case...
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Not all of the top coaches are coaching on a clubs top team. My daughter's first club had an A or B licensed coach who was amazing coaching the C teams. He was her private trainer and did amazing things for her. One of the reasons that we left the club was that we couldn't get him as a coach unless she played up on the C team.
 
SoccerDad77 said:
You like bringing this up don't you? Is your son/daughter on a "bottom" team? Of course clubs put their best resources into the best talent... Typically, those are the players that make the club successful (improve the club reputation by going on to play in college/win big tournaments/get selected for national teams/ play professionally/etc.), things clubs can market to keep the machine humming along... small minority of the time do you see a lower level player end up "making it" whatever definition you choose for that to mean... What's the alternative? Would you prefer the best coaches and fields go to the worse players and the top kids get inferior coaching and facilities? Or better yet, the best coaches just coach 8-10 teams? Imagine the hissy fit parents here would throw if that was the case...
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Some B team players do make it with good coaching. Mine was one of them and she is pretty decent now and passed a lot of the early developing girls. Personally peaking in college is better than at 12.
 
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I think some clubs do have more flexible training/practice schedules and allow for kids to intermingle quite a bit. Our old club for example held tryouts, picked two rosters to field the A and B teams but kids weren't told which team they were on until after spring league.The coaches worked together, practice was at the same time, side by side. All kids practiced together broken up into different groups focusing on different things, they all got to know the kids pretty well. After spring they offered the girls A or B. The practices however were kept the same, the girls floated between the teams and they borrowed players regularly either way. It was't until State Cup that you could see the real break down of the 2 teams. Both teams attended the same skills clinics, trainings etc. I liked that approach. You weren't guaranteed a spot on the A team the following year, you had to try out and the kids were all really motivated to work hard to secure their spot.
 
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