Interesting letter from SoCal League, re referee issues

[sigmabody]

SoCal League just sent out an interesting letter, re a new hiring and program for referee development. While most of it is boiler plate (don't abuse refs, there's a ref shortage, we have training programs, etc.), there's a preface blub which suggests that they are aware of complaints about a lack of accountability for the referees (although nothing else in the letter actually addresses this acknowledged complaint).

While I'd have liked to see something in terms of addressing the issue they are apparently acknowledging (there are no steps to address this complaint, beyond noting it), it is interesting (to me at least) to see some some tangible evidence that the league is at least aware of complaints about a lack of accountability for the officials, and a tacit acknowledgement that bad officiating might be a cause for some of the parental and players frustrations.

Curious about other people's takes also.

 

[sigmabody]

An update on the above: this was all empty talk, apparently.

The updated communications from SoCal league indicate that any parent/spectator who is Sent Off for any reason (including, and I quote "Irresponsible Behavior", whatever the hell that means, but it's apparent a red card offense) is subject to a 3 game suspension and a personal $50 fine (in the form of taking some BS online "respect training" course). They also emphasize, twice (literally copied twice in the rules), that all referee decisions are final and cannot be protested, and they go as far as to note that the league will not review referee decisions or abuse of authority, even if there is video evidence of such submitted (they will presumably close their eyes and mutter "see no evil..." while deleting whatever evidence you might send them).

So yeah... no referee accountability whatsoever, entirely one-sided rules and treatment, and beware of power-tripping a-hole officials this fall.

Oh, and insult to injury: it is a duty of team participants (players, coaches, and staff) to always thank the referees after games. So glad I'm hopefully getting off this ride soon.

 

[TopesWin]

An update on the above: this was all empty talk, apparently.

The updated communications from SoCal league indicate that any parent/spectator who is Sent Off for any reason (including, and I quote "Irresponsible Behavior", whatever the hell that means, but it's apparent a red card offense) is subject to a 3 game suspension and a personal $50 fine (in the form of taking some BS online "respect training" course). They also emphasize, twice (literally copied twice in the rules), that all referee decisions are final and cannot be protested, and they go as far as to note that the league will not review referee decisions or abuse of authority, even if there is video evidence of such submitted (they will presumably close their eyes and mutter "see no evil..." while deleting whatever evidence you might send them).

So yeah... no referee accountability whatsoever, entirely one-sided rules and treatment, and beware of power-tripping a-hole officials this fall.

Oh, and insult to injury: it is a duty of team participants (players, coaches, and staff) to always thank the referees after games. So glad I'm hopefully getting off this ride soon.

Cry baby.

 

[sigmabody]

Cry baby.

Honestly... I expected a bit more from you. Where is your typical, imagined fantasy background of me as a serial child molester and disgraced former top-tier coach relegated to coaching toddlers because of some scandal involving importing monkeys? Your scathing insults about my inability to string three words together while drooling on my shoes? Your clap-back that I'm just crying because I can't beat referee's with a baseball bat in the parking lot like I did one time at some venue I've never heard of?

This seems like a pretty low-effort personal attack here, compared to your previous efforts. Just saying.

 

[Grace T.]

An update on the above: this was all empty talk, apparently.

The updated communications from SoCal league indicate that any parent/spectator who is Sent Off for any reason (including, and I quote "Irresponsible Behavior", whatever the hell that means, but it's apparent a red card offense) is subject to a 3 game suspension and a personal $50 fine (in the form of taking some BS online "respect training" course). They also emphasize, twice (literally copied twice in the rules), that all referee decisions are final and cannot be protested, and they go as far as to note that the league will not review referee decisions or abuse of authority, even if there is video evidence of such submitted (they will presumably close their eyes and mutter "see no evil..." while deleting whatever evidence you might send them).

So yeah... no referee accountability whatsoever, entirely one-sided rules and treatment, and beware of power-tripping a-hole officials this fall.

Oh, and insult to injury: it is a duty of team participants (players, coaches, and staff) to always thank the referees after games. So glad I'm hopefully getting off this ride soon.

You are kind of doing the Charlie Brown and the football thing.

The 1 thing they could do to immediately improve ref accountability is to install fitness standards on everything from a U8 game to U19. They don't though because that would immediately knock out about 1/2 the referees out there due to age or being overweight and the projections if number of enrollment/clubs and referees hold, starting next year in SoCal we are going to start seeing not enough refs available for certain games (AYSO with its draft volunteer system and Latino League with its more loose reporting standards are already seeing this). So the best we are left with is ref assignors coping with it on an ad hoc basis giving the least fit and least competent refs the youngers games, where they usually have to do it alone, and run into the brick wall of parents who still don't know how scammy the system is, still have dreams of the kid being the next Ronaldo or Messi, and are still in protective mode of their younger kids when bad stuff does happen.

Then everyone goes around and scratches their heads and wonders why the kids are so desperate to play MLSN even without the scholarships out there.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I've never seen a ref swear at a parent, player, or coach.

I have seen parents coaches and even players say things to refs.

One time I saw 3 refs get into fistfight after a game.

 

[Grace T.]

I've never seen a ref swear at a parent, player, or coach.

I have seen parents coaches and even players say things to refs.

One time I saw 3 refs get into fistfight after a game.

Oh I have. I once saw a ref threaten a teen player to beat the crap out of him afterwards and calling him the Spanish equivalent of the q word. This was after the player got in the guys face after being red carded. Player was red carded for complaining loudly after going down. Ref allowed a defender to backward slide tackle the striker into his ankles studs up in the box presumably because he didn’t want the responsibility of a 0-0 game decided on a pk. Refs rationale was defender got to the ball first before sliding though the players ankles, which is not the standard under the laws nor what in fact happened which the ref couldn’t see anyways because he was trailing the two players. While it is true I have seen the most bad behavior from players (teen boys overall), then parents (the dads of younger girls being the worse), I have seen some bad behavior beyond just “bad calls” from refs ranging from outright racism to corruption and favoritism to the endangerment of players.

 

[sigmabody]

While it is true I have seen the most bad behavior from players (teen boys overall), then parents (the dads of younger girls being the worse), I have seen some bad behavior beyond just “bad calls” from refs ranging from outright racism to corruption and favoritism to the endangerment of players.

I'd echo this as well: I think there are various ranges of types of people (in terms of attitude, abrasiveness, competence, etc.), and this is manifest across all roles. There are "bad apples" in each role. It's the minority in all cases; well under 5% of people are "bad" (in my consideration).

But, I have certainly seen referees who are objectively bad and absurdly unreasonable (eg: the ref who called an indirect free kick for "taunting", based on the team passing the ball around the backfield without attacking when the other team refused to come forward, then carded the coach who correctly pointed out that his team's play was entirely legal). I've seen refs who are unquestionably corrupt (eg: the ref at Silverlakes who had presumably been paid off by Legends FC, where the coaches were laughing on the sidelines at how blatant the one-sided calls were). I've heard refs call kids racist slurs on the field. I've seen refs get in coaches' faces about questioning their calls, being overtly more hostile and escalating conflict (while/after red carding the coach for questioning a call). There are unquestionably very bad refs out there, just like there are bad people in every other role in youth sports.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I'd echo this as well: I think there are various ranges of types of people (in terms of attitude, abrasiveness, competence, etc.), and this is manifest across all roles. There are "bad apples" in each role. It's the minority in all cases; well under 5% of people are "bad" (in my consideration).

But, I have certainly seen referees who are objectively bad and absurdly unreasonable (eg: the ref who called an indirect free kick for "taunting", based on the team passing the ball around the backfield without attacking when the other team refused to come forward, then carded the coach who correctly pointed out that his team's play was entirely legal). I've seen refs who are unquestionably corrupt (eg: the ref at Silverlakes who had presumably been paid off by Legends FC, where the coaches were laughing on the sidelines at how blatant the one-sided calls were). I've heard refs call kids racist slurs on the field. I've seen refs get in coaches' faces about questioning their calls, being overtly more hostile and escalating conflict (while/after red carding the coach for questioning a call). There are unquestionably very bad refs out there, just like there are bad people in every other role in youth sports.

I've seen the corrupt refs as well.

During halftime of one game the refs were gathered in the center of the field at the mid line. A parent from the other team walked up to them and had a "conversation". I've never seen anything like it before. They chatted for like 3-4 minutes. The parent then walked to their sideline trying to stare down parents on the our team. After that we never got another call + the game was completely one sided.

If you're going to be corrupt at least try to hide it. This was at Surf Cup.

 

[Grace T.]

just an anecdote but I just went on the website to check out ref assignment for ayso opening weekend. Lots of slots open and my kid who is doing his community service hours as a ref got promoted to center (they are desperate for crs that know what they are doing). It will at least for the first games take me off the board too since I have to mentor then. This in a region that is still pretty robust participation wise and has an ayso united club they can force volunteer hours out of. Apparently the big hold up is a lot of background checks and mandatory trainings have yet to be completed. Also lost quite a bit of olders parents who moved onto club so they have to rinse repeat with the inexperienced.

 

[Lee Robert]

Become a Referee
General information: https://calsouth.com/new-referees/
Upcoming Courses: https://calsouth.com/upcoming-referee-education-courses/

 

[Grace T.]

Become a Referee
General information: https://calsouth.com/new-referees/
Upcoming Courses: https://calsouth.com/upcoming-referee-education-courses/

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The issue is you get to get yelled at and abused, you get to lose your Saturday and or Sunday, there’s no child care, you have to do a bunch of training that’s unpaid, you have to report the income on your taxes now, and you can now make more money working at McDonald’s than as a starting ref (which is why McDonald’s is struggling). The no tolerance policy only fixed the first prong (and that’s before you get to the issues around Hispanic refs). No thanks. Used to do it. Not worth the headache for the reward.

Interestingly ayso is doing an experiment this year allowing family members of players to ref as ars.

Only thing I see fixing this is if we enter a jobs recession and while the numbers indicate we might be entering one, the impact is mostly on the upper middle class and the middle class, not the working class where they can still do less demanding work at McDonald’s than out of the soccer field all day.

 

[sigmabody]

I know one parent on our club team who is getting certified to ref AYSO, because his kid (club player) is helping coach a you kids' team, and he (the parent) is trying to help. Honestly I'd think about doing the same, if AYSO didn't make it such a PITA to get approved every year (eg: you need to sit through hours of classes every year, even if you already know what you're doing). I know some other players are getting certified for AYSO, and some are doing that for school volunteering requirements (I know, oxymoron).

Hard pass on getting qualified as a Cal South referee, though; AYSO doesn't honor it, and the harsh new one-sided rules to silence sideline dissent are likely to make more upset parents more volatile for club matches (just as silencing peaceful protests usually leads to violent protesting). Not stepping into that tinder-box in progress.

 

[JeterwastheBEST]

Cry baby.

The Referees need to pass an English language test in that they need to comprehend the soccer rules as written in English, take a test, pass the test and have a minimum of 3 hours a year CLE (continuing legal education) study and testing- in English. and pass or fail. Why? So the Referees are able to competently explain their game decisions to Coaches and Captains and not just grunt or groan or threaten Coaches or Captains.

There also needs to be one or more personality trait tests administered to prospective Referees before they let them sit for the exam. Also, they need to declare citizenship, proficiency in English, number of restraining orders against them in the last 10 years, DCFS investigations they have been subject to and results (e.g., sustained, inconclusive, dismissed).

For starters.

 

[Lee Robert]

Hard pass on getting qualified as a Cal South referee, though; AYSO doesn't honor it

Yes, they most certainly do:
https://www.ayso1ref.com/aysoussf/
https://www.aysovolunteers.org/forms-referee-administration/

 

[Lee Robert]

Referee Certification Requirements includes Complete DOJ Background Check & Live Scan, SafeSport Training Course (Annual) and Introduction to Safe and Healthy Playing Environments:
* English: http://calsouthweb.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2024_NEW_Referee-Checklist.pdf
* Spanish: https://calsouth.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/2025_NEW_Referee_Checklist-Spanish.pdf

Certification and Recertification (Annual) Requirements, includes Education and Practical Training:
We do not use the "Digital Referee" certification

 

[sigmabody]

Yes, they most certainly do:
https://www.ayso1ref.com/aysoussf/
https://www.aysovolunteers.org/forms-referee-administration/

Why does the linked Cal South referee homepage have this text: "Once you are properly registered and approved by the State Referee Committee, you are then a U.S. Soccer Federation Referee for the approved registration year and are licensed to independently service any U.S. Soccer National Member Organization (except AYSO)." (emphasis mine)? Is that just because of the additional training, certification, and other contractual requirements imposed by AYSO?

Also, in case anyone is going down this path, I did figure out a bit more on the financial side. Dues to the "ref union" (required to be assigned games), at least for the South Bay association (several others appear to be "call for info" only), is $100 annually, plus a $40 initiation fee. That is in addition to the up-front costs for the various other required training courses and such. Honestly, that's not too onerous as union dues goes, since they presumably need to pay people to answer phones and do assignments and such.

 

[Grace T.]

Referee Certification Requirements includes Complete DOJ Background Check & Live Scan, SafeSport Training Course (Annual) and Introduction to Safe and Healthy Playing Environments:
* English: http://calsouthweb.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/2024_NEW_Referee-Checklist.pdf
* Spanish: https://calsouth.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/2025_NEW_Referee_Checklist-Spanish.pdf

Certification and Recertification (Annual) Requirements, includes Education and Practical Training:
We do not use the "Digital Referee" certification

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All of it uncompensated of course?

I get the shortage but given communication at league games is in English the instructions should be English only. For Latino league where commands are in Spanish I get otherwise.

 

[Grace T.]

Why does the linked Cal South referee homepage have this text: "Once you are properly registered and approved by the State Referee Committee, you are then a U.S. Soccer Federation Referee for the approved registration year and are licensed to independently service any U.S. Soccer National Member Organization (except AYSO)." (emphasis mine)? Is that just because of the additional training, certification, and other contractual requirements imposed by AYSO?

Also, in case anyone is going down this path, I did figure out a bit more on the financial side. Dues to the "ref union" (required to be assigned games), at least for the South Bay association (several others appear to be "call for info" only), is $100 annually, plus a $40 initiation fee. That is in addition to the up-front costs for the various other required training courses and such. Honestly, that's not too onerous as union dues goes, since they presumably need to pay people to answer phones and do assignments and such.

It’s still an economic barrier to entry. I agree it’s not too bad but honestly the leagues should be paying this, not the refs, which would drive up the cost. The fees should be higher to pay for mentoring refs which is part of the problem. Plus taxes have to be paid on the income which means you get the benefit of the deduction only if you itemize.

Refsneedlove had an interesting insta about a 14 year old girl being thrown in as ar for her first game into a boys academy game.fortunately it was a good experience for her but that just shows the shortage….she’s assigned because she’s one of the few that can run such a game

My son completed his first cr for ayso u10.I was his supervising ref (the one assigned didn’t show due to miscommunication) and I had to step in at ar too (it was hard doing both jobs and I didn’t do great at ar but still better than the linesman he would have gotten). Almost had to card the coach who was yelling at him (despite my having the youth ref zero tolerance talk with him) to “let them play” (of course he gets influenced and the game gets rougher) and challenges a handball call (coach gets the rule wrong saying the standard is intentional…it’s not…unnaturally bigger….correct call). Fortunately the coach shuts it after being warned but still has the gall at the quarter to make suggestions to me over what corrections to give him (all valid complaints but not your place…it’s why I’m there). Won’t let him cr if he doesn’t have a supervising ref. At least 4 games I knew of had to be scrapped for lack of a cr (at least two more almost got scrapped but somewhat newbie ars stepped into crs) He says he’ll do it again but “gets why people don’t want to do it”.

 

[sigmabody]

All of it uncompensated of course?

I think my larger issue with all of this (personally) is that none of it seems to contribute to actually better playing environments for the kids, and/or better working conditions for the referees.

I reffed a lot growing up, all volunteer, and the environment was "fine". There were not any background check, live scan, or protocol training requirements (it's not like referees are normally ever alone with kids); everyone was volunteering time so that the kids could just play. When there were disputes about calls on the field, refs would talk to coaches, they would talk to parents, sometimes cards were issued per protocols, but there wasn't really any "abuse", and/or fear of escalations.

Now we have training programs, background checks, dues fees, and ref compensation, but has the actual officiating gotten better? Are parents less upset because we have all these additional imposed requirements and costs? Are we expecting more because we are paying? Are we imposing all this stuff without getting any benefits? Or have we just changed as a society to be more angry when something we don't agree with happens?

I will admit that I don't know what the solution is either (I'd like to see feedback, but acknowledge that there are shortages and biases, so that might not matter much). I guess we'll see how the next season goes.

 

[Grace T.]

I think my larger issue with all of this (personally) is that none of it seems to contribute to actually better playing environments for the kids, and/or better working conditions for the referees.

I reffed a lot growing up, all volunteer, and the environment was "fine". There were not any background check, live scan, or protocol training requirements (it's not like referees are normally ever alone with kids); everyone was volunteering time so that the kids could just play. When there were disputes about calls on the field, refs would talk to coaches, they would talk to parents, sometimes cards were issued per protocols, but there wasn't really any "abuse", and/or fear of escalations.

Now we have training programs, background checks, dues fees, and ref compensation, but has the actual officiating gotten better? Are parents less upset because we have all these additional imposed requirements and costs? Are we expecting more because we are paying? Are we imposing all this stuff without getting any benefits? Or have we just changed as a society to be more angry when something we don't agree with happens?

I will admit that I don't know what the solution is either (I'd like to see feedback, but acknowledge that there are shortages and biases, so that might not matter much). I guess we'll see how the next season goes.

Lawyers. I get the child molesting risk from a coach who is contact with the players all the time, but for the refs a quick background and ID check (esp now that we have real ID) should suffice. The concussion and harassment stuff all comes out of lawsuits.

Kiddo is probably going to use the AYSO experience to spring into a paid ref gig once his service hours are complete. But even that shows the economic incentives...getting a part time job has become impossible since even the McDonalds are filled with career employees pulling in a high minimum wage and employers (despite ridiculous boomer suggestions the kids should find manager and hand a paper resume) have become very leery of hiring young workers who will just move on in a few months. One way we could make it easier is to streamline the requirements for players coming out of club and going to university looking to pick up a few bucks based on their experience (playing and volunteer reffing), though there are certain built in walls including it will trigger his needing to file income taxes, certification, and union dues. He likely wouldn't do it but has an eye on a mustang. The alternative is gig economy but with Waymo on the horizon, and the amount of damage your car takes, I don't see how gigging makes rationale sense unless you are trading on someone else's account and SS number.

But realistically that's the market for potential refs: young people unable to pull down the higher minimum wage jobs looking for entry level (many of whom already know the game but are vulnerable to high barriers to entry), illegals (trading on fraudulent social security numbers), gig workers where the competition is door dash (since Waymo is on the verge of putting the passenger drivers without nice cars out in a handful of years), contractors looking to supplement their income with a second job since weekends are downtime anyways (these are the ones most receptive to raising fees and also likely the most competent).