rainbow_unicorn
PREMIER
Why does CIF even have this rule for no MLS Next players? Just allow it and let MLS Next be the bad guy who has to police their own players.
High School Forfeits
- Thread starter Grace T.
- Start date
Highschool soccer is a complete waste of time...
Schools, districts etc have an honor board. Additionally verification of club enrollment is easy and can be checked through multiple sources including but not limited to US Soccer, SoCal Soccer League, Cal South to name a few. The schools have the tools to verify this and can also have parents and students sign a sporting contract indicating that falsification of documents, non-disclosure of club enrollment etc would lead to direct expulsion of the student. Others have also pointed out that the coaches/ admins already know what teams the students play club for, especially as a lot of the coaches work for both a the HS and a club.
Lastly, ignorance should not be an excuse that the school and district are allowed to use. If they cannot find competent people to run the program they should scrap the program.
It doesn't specifically. It has a no outside play rule which applies equally to Latino League to AYSO to F1 to MLSHG. The issue is MLS HG does not take a high school break (because it is a national league) and Flex occurs deep into December (because they have to wait for the Europeans to finish their fall season).
MLSN HG has a separate rule which it polices which is no high school play but there are a handful of ways of getting around it including: 1) you can sometimes get a waiver if you go to private school and are pulling in a scholarship which is dependent on sports play, 2) you can quit the team (seniors especially do this since it's their last chance to play high school) and then hope to be able to return (i.e., the drop pickup), 3) your club and coach can look the other way.
Then why are these players playing in high school, violating the rule and leading to their entire high school to be disqualified then?
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
We're in the process of moving to a new area. We spoke to 2 of the high school soccer coaches at both schools we may end up at. Both of them are reasonably competitive in their area. Without much prompting at all, both of them boasted of the number of MLS N HD kids they had playing with them. When asked how that gets managed, they both said pretty much the same thing - if a kid wants to play soccer for them and is clearly good enough, they certainly were happy to let them - they couldn't care less about any rules that MLS N or any other league lays out.
Maybe now that there appear to be more consequences for the school teams and players, and they are being applied more often, some of that thinking will shift. Or maybe the way CIF is behaving is an outlier, and not only won't it spread, but CIF will end up backtracking a bit on its current stance.
The problem with the way things are setup now is someone needs to always be policing schools and clubs to see whos cheating.
The solution for this is for Private Schools (who the exemptions are for) pay clubs for use of the player (on loan from) during the high school season. You do this and all the nonsense goes away because theres money involved. MLS is trying to exist in 2 different worlds. If you're going to be a pro pathway go all in.
The solution for this is for Private Schools (who the exemptions are for) pay clubs for use of the player (on loan from) during the high school season. You do this and all the nonsense goes away because theres money involved. MLS is trying to exist in 2 different worlds. If you're going to be a pro pathway go all in.
This is the thing, though: it's not a rule imposed by MLSn or anything, and/or something which the HS coach can necessarily know. The HS AD will likely communicate that the players are not allowed to play externally during the season, but they functionally cannot police this. Conversely, it would be inappropriate and unfair (and counter to the underlying goal of the CIF rule as well) to prevent those players from playing HS soccer, just because they are enrolled in a club program, as most players will pause their participation in club competitions during the HS season of sport (as required by the CIF rule).
Also, it's not CIF which is pushing on enforcing the rule; I'd assume it's the other high schools, especially during playoffs competition, which are checking to see if their opponents should be disqualified. I'd imagine there are a larger number of violations which are effectively ignored (ie: before the playoffs), and a lot of kids who would risk their HS disqualification to play in MLSn events regardless (as that is a higher visibility path, and some kids are simply going to try to play in both regardless of the CIF rule). There's a collective punishment aspect to the CIF rules (with HS team disqualification), but no easy way for HS coaches to validate compliance, so unsure if more punishments will help here.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
This is incorrect. MLS N has a clear rule. Grace outlined it already.
I'm not sure I understand this take. It's a CIF-written, and CIF-enforced rule, that has come to be after years of working with the various youth sports organizations. Sure - it's a variety of different ways (perhaps honorable/dishonorable depending on perspective) that they are made aware of violations of their rule. But once they are - they are then the ones enforcing the consequences tied to breaking the rule. If it's accurate that nobody likes the rule as is - all CIF has to do is change it. But it seems that enough supported it up until this point to have this situation.
Fieldsofgold
SILVER
I think this rule with regards to CIF is just silly. Who cares if a kid is finishing up CIF for their school as club is starting up again. The only issue I see is that it becomes a lot of soccer in short amount of time LOL
I do understand MLS has differnt rules in place.
I do understand MLS has differnt rules in place.
Fair, my bad; I just meant to say that it's not MLSn rules which are getting HS teams disqualified, but I misstated that observation. MLSn can also have their own rules, of course.
What I meant to say here (to clarify) is that I doubt CIF has people going around auditing every HS; it seems more likely that violations only become visible when other HS programs report them, and only because of playoff competitions. I'm just saying that it doesn't seem possible for HS coaches to ensure they are in compliance, which puts the schools in a bad position with the current way it shakes out.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
I dunno, isn't that how most rules are written and enforced? It's illegal to speed, but there's no penalty until you get yourself pulled over. It's illegal to drink at 18, but there aren't any (legal) consequences unless you're actually busted. It's illegal to cheat on your taxes - but most won't actually get caught and prosecuted if they choose to try. And it's illegal to rob banks - but until you're brought to the ground and have the cuffs put on, there's no penalty.
This seems no different, albeit the stakes are comparatively minor. At this point, a kid playing school ball (or a coach allowing it) in CA, while still in season elsewhere, when they know getting caught doing so means severe consequences for the school team, while also potentially being dropped by the club, isn't going into this unawares. Pointing the finger at their opponents to basically say that they should have kept their mouth shut and not turned them in, is pretty weak, let alone not going to be terribly effective. No, the coach/admin isn't able to fully verify that no kid is playing elsewhere, but that's not the point either - the player has many responsibilities to his/her teammates, from grades, to behavior, and any other expectation that is laid out to be a productive member of the team. Staying eligible is certainly one of them.
This seems no different, albeit the stakes are comparatively minor. At this point, a kid playing school ball (or a coach allowing it) in CA, while still in season elsewhere, when they know getting caught doing so means severe consequences for the school team, while also potentially being dropped by the club, isn't going into this unawares. Pointing the finger at their opponents to basically say that they should have kept their mouth shut and not turned them in, is pretty weak, let alone not going to be terribly effective. No, the coach/admin isn't able to fully verify that no kid is playing elsewhere, but that's not the point either - the player has many responsibilities to his/her teammates, from grades, to behavior, and any other expectation that is laid out to be a productive member of the team. Staying eligible is certainly one of them.
MLS HG is on FIFA terroritory, not trying to exist in 2 worlds. High school is trying to take over an international territory and try and claim its dominance. The solution is for the US to incorporate HS soccer into a tiered league system where the players have to choose school, club or academy. It is straigthforward and an easy solution but since there are no consequences for all the coaches who boast about knowing these players that should not be playing on their teams and pushing the envelope why should they try and change. It doesnt impact the coach just the kids. Also the parents who are allowing most of these minors to commit fraud are no better.
sheer stupidity on the part of the school and the parents, all believing they are entitled to more and above the rules.
Only way you make this work is to require the colleges to recruit only out of high school. Club, little pee wee football, would go up to age 14 and then just stop. You either then pick the MLNS route (future pro) or the high school right (college recruitment) The issue with it is that MLSN wants it both ways: there aren't enough US academies due to our lack of 2 3 4 tiers and the growth of MLSN and those that exist are scattered for geography, they need training fodder so that's why the P2P clubs exist, they get people to go to those p2p clubs by offering the chance of college recruitment if the pro thing doesn't work out. Your problem is fundamentally college soccer, which breaks the entire system.
And college soccer only breaks the system because they offer prestige and scholorships. The level of play isnt even consistently good.
On the girls side this year, some were put in tough positions for high school playoffs. Several girls were invited to an Angel City ID Camp the week before round 1 of CIF. Sucks that they had to make that decision to sit out of CIF. Especially the seniors. And obviously most were stars on their high school teams. Seems CIF should allow for opportunities like these while still letting them compete with their HS teams. One team in our league had 2 seniors who had carried the team all season ineligible to play in CIF because they went to the ID camp. The team probably would have advanced but lost in round 1. Sucks all around.
Why would you restrict recruitment? This would be against development. If a kid is playing lower division on his high school team because he/she is a late developer but is scouted by both college and pro academy restricting his pathway would be completely against the entire premise of competitive sport. The HS team must earn its league rank over time by playing against club and academy teams. The players have to choose each season whether they play HS, club, academy or college with the same transfer rules applying to all 4. If HS team is amazing there is no reason it cannot be in top tier playing against some college and academy teams.
This purely a matter of opinion and not fact. If you are an individual adult who is 18 years old, with potential and you are only on the pro route, getting accepted in to a college with a scholarship would not be prestigious at all. Where as if you got a scholarship to a pro academy that would be prestigious. Scholarships are available outside of college too. You just have to look for them and apply.