Hamas vs the World

E

espola

Hamas has figured out a way to lose all political support in the Western world, perhaps all the world.
 
By the way Espola, I was first to respond to your amazing post. Maybe we can get 1,000,000 views. Anyway, please don't make me wait too long about my Q to you. If you don't answer, I will give the right answer. I'm just trying to figure out if you truly know. Thanks, Crush
 
espola said:
Hamas has figured out a way to lose all political support in the Western world, perhaps all the world.
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I'm not sure how much political support Hamas had outside of Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon and their power base in the Gaza strip. What they did was abhorrent and has rightly been condemned as an act of barbarism and disgusting terrorism. What they have managed to do though, is put the spotlight on the Palestinians and the hopelessness of their plight. That's something that everyone prefers to ignore pretty much all the time.
 
watfly said:
Yep, a lose/lose for anyone involved. A big loss for humanity.

Unfortunately, Gaza Palestinians elected Hamas to govern them. There was no secret as to what Hamas stood for when they were elected. The Gazans current plight is partly self-inflicted
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It’s certainly true that they elected them. I don’t buy the self inflicted piece though for the thousands of children dying.
 
whatithink said:
I'm not sure how much political support Hamas had outside of Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon and their power base in the Gaza strip. What they did was abhorrent and has rightly been condemned as an act of barbarism and disgusting terrorism. What they have managed to do though, is put the spotlight on the Palestinians and the hopelessness of their plight. That's something that everyone prefers to ignore pretty much all the time.
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Hamas has actually put a spotlight on how much anti-semitism still exists in the world, particularly here in the US. Call me naive, but I had no clue how pervasive anti-semitism is in our country. IDK if it was laying dormant but it has been far more vocal than racism lately.
 
watfly said:
Hamas has actually put a spotlight on how much anti-semitism still exists in the world, particularly here in the US. Call me naive, but I had no clue how pervasive anti-semitism is in our country. IDK if it was laying dormant but it has been far more vocal than racism lately.
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Yeah, antisemitism is very real, and not just with the "Jews will not replace us" crowd who were "good people on both sides" not so very long ago. That said, all criticism of the Israeli response shouldn't be taken as such, i.e. there are plenty of people who are being lazily labelled as antisemite because they are vocal about the plight of the ordinary Palestinians who are being killed in their thousands.

WRT your comment above about Hamas being elected. That's 100% true. It was in 2006. 50% of the Palestinians in Gaza weren't born then. An overwhelmingly majority didn't vote then. Ultimately the Palestinians in Gaza have no choice, no future, no hope, no life that anyone would want. As far as I can see nobody gives a F about them. The status quo (pre Oct 7th) worked for everyone ... unless you were Palestinian, but back to the number of Fs anyone gave about that.

None of that excuses Hamas who do no service to their people with their charter, their aims and their despicable terrorism. Sadly with the continued bombing in Gaza, and the "collateral" deaths that come with it, I expect Hamas' recruiting departments is working overtime with the number of new recruits.
 
whatithink said:
Yeah, antisemitism is very real, and not just with the "Jews will not replace us" crowd who were "good people on both sides" not so very long ago. That said, all criticism of the Israeli response shouldn't be taken as such, i.e. there are plenty of people who are being lazily labelled as antisemite because they are vocal about the plight of the ordinary Palestinians who are being killed in their thousands.

WRT your comment above about Hamas being elected. That's 100% true. It was in 2006. 50% of the Palestinians in Gaza weren't born then. An overwhelmingly majority didn't vote then. Ultimately the Palestinians in Gaza have no choice, no future, no hope, no life that anyone would want. As far as I can see nobody gives a F about them. The status quo (pre Oct 7th) worked for everyone ... unless you were Palestinian, but back to the number of Fs anyone gave about that.

None of that excuses Hamas who do no service to their people with their charter, their aims and their despicable terrorism. Sadly with the continued bombing in Gaza, and the "collateral" deaths that come with it, I expect Hamas' recruiting departments is working overtime with the number of new recruits.
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There is still very strong support for Hamas among Gaza Palestinians, regardless of when they were born. There are also many Gaza Palestinians that don't support Hamas. And a third group that may not actively support Hamas, but want the destruction of Israel. Many of the protests you are seeing have both Palestinian and Hamas flag wavers and often involve burning Israeli flags. (Keep in mind that flying a thin blue line flag is considered racist in America)

Let's not pretend that there is anyone else to blame for Gaza's situation than Hamas. Not only for starting the conflict, but also for using civilians, women and children as human shields. It turns my stomach to see a Palestinian child removed from the rubble of a bombed building as much as it does to see a child dressed in full fatigues with a Hamas headband. These kids just don't have a chance. Maybe the saddest part is that even if Israel eliminates Hamas there will likely be some radical Islamic group to replace them.

You say nobody gives an F about Palestinians. What would giving an F look like? And what exactly is there inherent plight (outside of the current war)? Wouldn't eliminating Hamas be the best first step? What should the US be doing?

Also, keep in mind that Palestinians in the West Bank are doing far better than those in Gaza.
 
watfly said:
There is still very strong support for Hamas among Gaza Palestinians, regardless of when they were born. There are also many Gaza Palestinians that don't support Hamas. And a third group that may not actively support Hamas, but want the destruction of Israel. Many of the protests you are seeing have both Palestinian and Hamas flag wavers and often involve burning Israeli flags. (Keep in mind that flying a thin blue line flag is considered racist in America)

Let's not pretend that there is anyone else to blame for Gaza's situation than Hamas. Not only for starting the conflict, but also for using civilians, women and children as human shields. It turns my stomach to see a Palestinian child removed from the rubble of a bombed building as much as it does to see a child dressed in full fatigues with a Hamas headband. These kids just don't have a chance. Maybe the saddest part is that even if Israel eliminates Hamas there will likely be some radical Islamic group to replace them.

You say nobody gives an F about Palestinians. What would giving an F look like? And what exactly is there inherent plight (outside of the current war)? Wouldn't eliminating Hamas be the best first step? What should the US be doing?

Also, keep in mind that Palestinians in the West Bank are doing far better than those in Gaza.
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What a mess
 
watfly said:
There is still very strong support for Hamas among Gaza Palestinians, regardless of when they were born. There are also many Gaza Palestinians that don't support Hamas. And a third group that may not actively support Hamas, but want the destruction of Israel. Many of the protests you are seeing have both Palestinian and Hamas flag wavers and often involve burning Israeli flags. (Keep in mind that flying a thin blue line flag is considered racist in America)

Let's not pretend that there is anyone else to blame for Gaza's situation than Hamas. Not only for starting the conflict, but also for using civilians, women and children as human shields. It turns my stomach to see a Palestinian child removed from the rubble of a bombed building as much as it does to see a child dressed in full fatigues with a Hamas headband. These kids just don't have a chance. Maybe the saddest part is that even if Israel eliminates Hamas there will likely be some radical Islamic group to replace them.

You say nobody gives an F about Palestinians. What would giving an F look like? And what exactly is there inherent plight (outside of the current war)? Wouldn't eliminating Hamas be the best first step? What should the US be doing?

Also, keep in mind that Palestinians in the West Bank are doing far better than those in Gaza.
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Giving a F would be getting serious about a 2 state solution and making Hamas redundant, imv. Is there anyone actually driving a solution - I don't see it. Lots of words every now and again, but no action. Israel should give Gaza some autonomy, i.e. not ensure that they are 100% reliance on whether Israel wants them to have food, water, fuel, power, medicine etc., you know - treat them as people who should have the right and ability to strive for something better for themselves and their children. Give them an alternative to the Hamas hate.

I don't think the West Bank are really doing much better - better for sure, but the bar (Gaza) is set at as low a level as you could. 500K Jewish settlers have taken land from Palestinians on the West Bank. There have been multiple attacks by settlers on Palestinians there also, this year alone.

Jewish settler population in West Bank surpasses 500,000 - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

The solution has to be peaceful coexistence of Israel and a Palestinian state. Hamas don't want that and the extreme right in Israel (who share power) want a Greater Israel, so no from them too.

It is a complete mess and the innocents on both sides, as always, are the ones that suffer the most.
 
whatithink said:
Giving a F would be getting serious about a 2 state solution and making Hamas redundant, imv. Is there anyone actually driving a solution - I don't see it. Lots of words every now and again, but no action. Israel should give Gaza some autonomy, i.e. not ensure that they are 100% reliance on whether Israel wants them to have food, water, fuel, power, medicine etc., you know - treat them as people who should have the right and ability to strive for something better for themselves and their children. Give them an alternative to the Hamas hate.

I don't think the West Bank are really doing much better - better for sure, but the bar (Gaza) is set at as low a level as you could. 500K Jewish settlers have taken land from Palestinians on the West Bank. There have been multiple attacks by settlers on Palestinians there also, this year alone.

Jewish settler population in West Bank surpasses 500,000 - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

The solution has to be peaceful coexistence of Israel and a Palestinian state. Hamas don't want that and the extreme right in Israel (who share power) want a Greater Israel, so no from them too.

It is a complete mess and the innocents on both sides, as always, are the ones that suffer the most.
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I support a two-state solution, which is impossible without the elimination of Hamas and its ilk. It's still difficult even with the elimination of Hamas, as I'm not convinced that most Palestinians support a two-state solution. Egypt doesn't want to accept Palestinian refugees because they are concerned about them radicalizing citizens. It's also tough for hard-line Israeli's to trust Palestinians when they keep getting attacked. Palestinians need to prove they can handle a two-state solution, before one can be successful. Remember that Israel unilaterally left (aka disengaged) Gaza nearly 20 years ago and that has done nothing to quell violence from Gaza. I think peaceful coexistence is a pipe-dream. Certain Palestinians have never proven to be peaceful and Israel has never been tolerant of attacks on their citizens.
 
watfly said:
I support a two-state solution, which is impossible without the elimination of Hamas and its ilk.
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Have you tried a Hamas Burger? Gaza Strips are fucking tasty, sprinkled with goat cheese and Palestinian sauce. I think we're getting played to rush into war and death. These blood suckers love death & fear. I support no more people dying, especially those caught in the middle, like all of us. I will say the Hamas group teaches their kids very young to kill & hate others and that has me very concerned.
 
watfly said:
I support a two-state solution, which is impossible without the elimination of Hamas and its ilk. It's still difficult even with the elimination of Hamas, as I'm not convinced that most Palestinians support a two-state solution. Egypt doesn't want to accept Palestinian refugees because they are concerned about them radicalizing citizens. It's also tough for hard-line Israeli's to trust Palestinians when they keep getting attacked. Palestinians need to prove they can handle a two-state solution, before one can be successful. Remember that Israel unilaterally left (aka disengaged) Gaza nearly 20 years ago and that has done nothing to quell violence from Gaza. I think peaceful coexistence is a pipe-dream. Certain Palestinians have never proven to be peaceful and Israel has never been tolerant of attacks on their citizens.
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Disengaging from Gaza is a bit of a euphemism. Israel put a wall around it and control everything that goes in and out, that's not really disengaging, that's exerting complete control - its not for nothing that its being referred to as the largest open air prison in the world. Likewise the Israeli hardliners are actively attacking Palestinians and more actively taking land in the West Bank, land which everyone acknowledges is Palestinian land, but they do it anyway, with the actual encouragement and support of active members of the Israeli government - not all, but enough. Those Israeli hardliners do not want a two state solution, they want a greater Israel with both Gaza & the West Bank devoid of Palestinians.

I think most Palestinians would take a two state solution in a heart beat. I don't think Hamas or the Palestinian Authority would be that happy though, as that might give rise to democracy and the end of their existence. I also don't think Israel would agree to it both because of their internal politics and from a security perspective, it would be a nightmare for them to have a free and independent Palestinian state on their border.
 
whatithink said:
Disengaging from Gaza is a bit of a euphemism. Israel put a wall around it and control everything that goes in and out, that's not really disengaging, that's exerting complete control - its not for nothing that its being referred to as the largest open air prison in the world. Likewise the Israeli hardliners are actively attacking Palestinians and more actively taking land in the West Bank, land which everyone acknowledges is Palestinian land, but they do it anyway, with the actual encouragement and support of active members of the Israeli government - not all, but enough. Those Israeli hardliners do not want a two state solution, they want a greater Israel with both Gaza & the West Bank devoid of Palestinians.

I think most Palestinians would take a two state solution in a heart beat. I don't think Hamas or the Palestinian Authority would be that happy though, as that might give rise to democracy and the end of their existence. I also don't think Israel would agree to it both because of their internal politics and from a security perspective, it would be a nightmare for them to have a free and independent Palestinian state on their border.
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Giving Palestine a two state solution right now would be like giving your kid a Porsche after theyve crashed the Civic a handful of times. Hamas actions only have put a spotlight on the utter evil of radical Islam, and setback hopes of a two state solution even farther. To imply their barbaric slaughter has any positive impact for the Palestinians is really distasteful. Unfortunately, we have many in our socalled elite institutions who attempt to rationalize the murder of Jews.
 
watfly said:
Giving Palestine a two state solution right now would be like giving your kid a Porsche after theyve crashed the Civic a handful of times. Hamas actions only have put a spotlight on the utter evil of radical Islam, and setback hopes of a two state solution even farther. To imply their barbaric slaughter has any positive impact for the Palestinians is really distasteful. Unfortunately, we have many in our socalled elite institutions who attempt to rationalize the murder of Jews.
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A two state solution has no legs at the moment, and will never have any if Hamas is in control, and quite rightly so too. Their barbaric slaughter, as you correctly state, is not having any positive impact on Palestinians, esp. not in Gaza where they are dying as a direct result of it. I'm not sure who you think is rationalizing the murder of Jews, I've not seen that. Are you referring to the students in Harvard maybe?
 
whatithink said:
A two state solution has no legs at the moment, and will never have any if Hamas is in control, and quite rightly so too. Their barbaric slaughter, as you correctly state, is not having any positive impact on Palestinians, esp. not in Gaza where they are dying as a direct result of it. I'm not sure who you think is rationalizing the murder of Jews, I've not seen that. Are you referring to the students in Harvard maybe?
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Columbia
Cornell (hamas killing jews was exhilarating)
GW
Emory
NYU
Tulane
Stanford

Just to name a few.
 
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