They only problem with that is there will always be "that parent" that undermines the group benefit for their kids individual gain.
Guest players - what to do
- Thread starter lulu9155
- Start date
RobbieNorwood
BRONZE
Nothing beats $3,000.00 a year plus tournament fees plus coaching fees to see your kid sit for a guest player who you're paying for over the weekend
I get your point but if you're on the B team, why are you losing sleep over winning a tournament? That reminds me of my favorite Facebook post.
U12 SURF CUP CHAMPS! (Bronze Division) -
Narrator: this only works with the highest level or a championship contender team.
Americans like winning and losing. See my other point in the other thread. We are under a (false) assumption sports is a meritocracy so we love our heroes. The lower the soccer competition level, the more it is treated like little league.
Other nations don’t treat soccer this way. They treat it like chess and play more for love of the game than winning and losing.
The same reason some A teams get excited winning a tournament in flight 2 bracket.
Do your non soccer friends ask you which bracket Johnny’s team was when you post a picture of him lifting the trophy on Facebook?
Anecdotal case where it can make lots of sense: My son guested on a lower-tier team in our club, for the Swallows Cup last weekend. The team in question has five players out with significant injuries, and had five guest players from the mid-tier team (same age), to field a roster of ~14 (for 11x11), with a couple of their remaining players nursing injuries and playing reduced minutes. The team had good success at the tournament, whereas in the previous season they often lost very lopsided matches.
All the parents there were very happy to have the guest players, and have their kids experience some success on the field (at least in part as a consequence of that). Moreover, the games were all competitive, as opposed to the team forfeiting or likely getting rolled over otherwise. Those kids and parents certainly celebrated the victories, despite it being a lower-tier division.
I'm glad my son got some extra play time, and helped some of his friends win some games. I'm glad he helped the parents and kids on that team feel less discouraged about soccer, and I hope the other teams got better as a result of the higher level of competition. That's where guesting really makes sense, imho.
All the parents there were very happy to have the guest players, and have their kids experience some success on the field (at least in part as a consequence of that). Moreover, the games were all competitive, as opposed to the team forfeiting or likely getting rolled over otherwise. Those kids and parents certainly celebrated the victories, despite it being a lower-tier division.
I'm glad my son got some extra play time, and helped some of his friends win some games. I'm glad he helped the parents and kids on that team feel less discouraged about soccer, and I hope the other teams got better as a result of the higher level of competition. That's where guesting really makes sense, imho.
My non soccer friends know I'm a douche. My soccer friends know I'm a douche and Johnny is on the 3rd (revenue) squad.
rainbow_unicorn
PREMIER
Hey, at least they called out the division. Better than parents saying they're champs and not mentioning anything about being 5th level division.
I'm okay with coaches/clubs trying to win tournaments, especially the big recognizable ones... Play league games to develop, play tourneys to win...
But 13 seems way too many for 7v7... I wouldn't join a team if they're fielding 13 for 7v7...
9 or 10 seems like a good number...
But 13 seems way too many for 7v7... I wouldn't join a team if they're fielding 13 for 7v7...
9 or 10 seems like a good number...
Tim Powell
SILVER ELITE
Not sure I agree - especially 7v7 and 9v9 which are alterations of normal field size and sides in order to develop players at a young age.
I’d be hard pressed to find many who care who won any 7v7 or 9v9 tournament, especially once they are playing 11v11. Even at 11v11, I would say we’re talking about a small handful of tournaments (e.g. Surf Cup and a few others) where it is notable who wins.
And anything where a coach has to rely on outside players beyond the normal roster, at the expense of players on that roster, is bush league IMHO. If winning is that important, do it with your “real” team so it actually means something. Guest players IMHO should only come into play when a team has injuries and/or needs to rest players in a tourney to prevent injury.
Parents love winning, though.
The only time I'm good with bringing guest players is if we're short. Even then, guest players shouldn't start. You're the one paying monthly dues, dropping $1,500 just for the tournament travel and some kid outside the team is going to start or play more than my kid?
No way. Nothing says, "we don't value you or give a shit what you think" like pulling that stunt.
No way. Nothing says, "we don't value you or give a shit what you think" like pulling that stunt.
I think this really depends on the club, coaching, parents, vibe, etc.
Speaking for myself, I've had my kid in one club only, for the last 2.5 years (and before that just AYSO pre-Covid). It's a small-ish local city club, which prioritizes player development. They fairly regularly have guest players for games and tournaments from other teams in the club (mostly just if/when the team is short players/subs; I've never seen guest players added "just to have a better chance of winning", for example).
When the teams have guest players, they fairly regularly start, from what I've seen. I always perceived that move as more of a "thank you" expression from the coach, toward the player/parents who volunteered to help out. I don't think I've ever seen/heard another parent express displeasure over that type of coaching decision, and I never though badly of it. Also, all the coaches in the club will generally play all the kids who are available for each game, so at most you're talking about just having minutes reduced some.
That said, my son is not playing at the top level of the club, or in the top competitive league/divisions, etc., so perhaps the vibe is different at those levels. The parents at my level mostly just want our kids to improve, have fun, and maybe experience some success periodically. My kid is pretty unlikely to be a professional soccer player, and I'm not going to sweat it if he maybe plays 10 minutes less in a game so that the team can have a few subs, and/or doesn't start. I'm all for using guest players to improve the overall play experience for the kids, and I think my kid's club does a good job of that, imho.
You make some good points. For me, it was always about #s. Do we really need players or are we compensating for the bottom 3 on the roster?
I just think it's uncool to start guests over roster players that do all the work, pay for the travel and then have to sit because winning is more important.
I suspect I'd feel the same way, IF the club was bringing in players for the purpose of winning, and/or not playing the bottom players from the actual team at all.
In the case of my son's club, as noted, I've never seen them bring guest players in aside from needing numbers, and I've never seen any actual team players who were available for games (ie: there, not injured, listening to coaching, etc.) get <50% of game time on the field (I'd say at least 75% on average). As the club says, they prioritize player development over winning in general, and I've seen that for all cases, at least at the levels below the top tier (it may also be true at the top tier, but I do not have direct knowledge for those teams).
As I said, I think it's about the vibe and overall perceptions. I'm sure there are other parents like you, who would take significant offense if a coach started a guest player over a player on the team; I'm just noting that this is not uniform, and not representative of any parents on the teams in my son's club (as far as I have seen), as an anecdotal example to the contrary.
RandomSoccerFan
GOLD
Context certainly makes a difference whether it's a good experience or bad experience for the existing players on the team and any guest players that were invited to join. From a guest player perspective, it's not polite or acceptable for a coach to invite them to the game to help the team, make sure they have a uniform, and then have them sit for a good portion of the game itself. This is doubly true if it's a travel tournament. If the coach hadn't planned on playing them for much of the game - they really didn't need them - and they shouldn't have invited them. By the same token - it's not polite or acceptable for a guest player to be added to the team, and then someone who usually expects to play a good portion of the game - to sit and not play instead. It's just as true for a travel tournament - as making the effort and spending the resources to get there, and then only ride the bench for much/most of the game is hard to justify. So if the coach is inviting extra guest players too often and rostered players are losing significant playtime due to it, a conversation needs to be had. For whatever reason, the coach's perspective is that the team is better off with the guest players on the field than those that are sitting. Maybe some of the kids on the roster are playing below the expected level. Maybe there are just too many kids on the roster. Maybe the coach is recruiting the guest players for next season. Perhaps the parents can persuade the coach that bringing the guest players is not helpful for the team, and maybe they wouldn't invite as many or as often going forward. Perhaps there is more to the story that a conversation will help all understand the situation a bit better. Or perhaps it will cement the idea that this isn't the right environment for your player.
Kids also love winning. And parents love to see their kids be happy. Nothing wrong with either of those things.Not sure I agree - especially 7v7 and 9v9 which are alterations of normal field size and sides in order to develop players at a young age.
I’d be hard pressed to find many who care who won any 7v7 or 9v9 tournament, especially once they are playing 11v11. Even at 11v11, I would say we’re talking about a small handful of tournaments (e.g. Surf Cup and a few others) where it is notable who wins.
And anything where a coach has to rely on outside players beyond the normal roster, at the expense of players on that roster, is bush league IMHO. If winning is that important, do it with your “real” team so it actually means something. Guest players IMHO should only come into play when a team has injuries and/or needs to rest players in a tourney to prevent injury.
Parents love winning, though.
Not sure I agree - especially 7v7 and 9v9 which are alterations of normal field size and sides in order to develop players at a young age.
I’d be hard pressed to find many who care who won any 7v7 or 9v9 tournament, especially once they are playing 11v11. Even at 11v11, I would say we’re talking about a small handful of tournaments (e.g. Surf Cup and a few others) where it is notable who wins.
And anything where a coach has to rely on outside players beyond the normal roster, at the expense of players on that roster, is bush league IMHO. If winning is that important, do it with your “real” team so it actually means something. Guest players IMHO should only come into play when a team has injuries and/or needs to rest players in a tourney to prevent injury.
Parents love winning, though.
I mean... who cares if they won any tournament at all in any youth level... 99.9% of the kids aren't playing beyond HS age...
It's for fun and childhood memories... And it's certainly more fun for the kids to win... than lose...
And I'm not a fan of using guest players for tournaments to win...
to use a player because they're short players and guest players don't play ahead of players already on the team = sure,
using guest players to win lower level tournaments = no...
What I mean by "coaches should try to win tournaments" is a coach has been rotating kids pretty evenly throughout the final... game's tied... in the final 5 minutes, put the best team out there to try to win it... I'm a proponent of that... not "I'm going to bench all my current players to play 4 guest players every game of this tournament..."
Tim Powell
SILVER ELITE
Fair enough - we’re largely in agreement.
I’m certainly not suggesting coaches/teams don’t compete to win games at any age - it’s just the younger you get the more it should be about development by giving the kids as balanced playing time across the full roster as possible.
I would say the finest art for a coach would be determining their teams flight so they can both fully rotate the players as well as adequately compete so there is the fun of winning at least some of the time. Either that or setting expectations - a lot of people value playing apt higher flights to challenge their players/kids - just make sure they know they could get their butts kicked more often than not.
Karlton Athletic
SILVER
My youngest plays on a Tier 2 team. They were newly formed last season and were beaten by double digits virtually every game (save for a tie against the league's other bad team). We've played some Tier 3 teams at tournaments and been competitive, though still haven't actually won a game (but, I'd argue have been the better side in quite a few).
Anyway, we were having our butts handed to us even worse by some Tier 1 teams playing down in a tournament, so I polled the parents near me about being Tier 3 next season and it was unanimous, so they volunteered me to speak to the coaches, and they said they'd been thinking the same thing. All good. Coaches call a parents' meeting to talk about the next season, being Tier 3 etc..., and it creates a firestorm, with angry accusations of a bait and switch and that little Johnny shouldn't be playing tier 3 (he definitely should). Wild.
Best I can tell, the parents that play/played soccer themselves want a season of tier 3 so the boys can grasp the basics without being pressed off the ball in seconds, but the non-soccer playing parents are outraged and seem to want another season of soul crushing defeats. These are 2011s, so they have plenty of time.