Simisoccerfan
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Justafan, and just to prove my point about agitators Monkey goes and opens his big mouth. Lol
Girls DPL?
- Thread starter Soccerreccos
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2 of the 3 DOCs that started DPL are in San Diego. At their DA meetings DA 2 was all the rage. They said it was part of the DA program and provided a pathway for all players to DA since they were going to get the same training, special showcases etc. Great if all the DPL teams got into the Players Showcase (I have not checked) but that does not mean the D1 coaches that are watching the DA teams will be watching. However, a lot of DPL parents and players have been sold that this is the case. They go around claiming that they are in DA and don't understand when I tell them otherwise because they have been sold this crap and want to believe it is true.
Simisoccerfan
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Understand but that’s not me. I live in Ventura Co where besides DA, DPL was the next best option since there is no ECNL nor strong teams in other leagues. No one is under the illusion that we are part of the DA even though the DA coaches are also the DPL coaches. I do think that many of the DPL players will find a home at D2 schools and below. The same as CSL and SCDSL players. Our DPL team was lucky to attract a dozen coaches a game (a few were D1) but our DA games were getting well over 50 coaches a game (90%D1). The difference in attention is insane.
The one thing it did for my dd was create a path to the DA as it did for a couple other girls in our club. I know you will say that the same path would have existed without DPL if we were in the club. But the reality is we probably would not have joined the club. So the creation of DPL did create the opportunity for her talent to get noticed.
I think you unintentionally hit the nail on the head there Simi. You are right. DPL's fall league games are indistinguishable from its other games. That is because DPL is really just a tournament and not a true league. Spots are just guaranteed in the DPL tournament for a certain set of teams based solely on the status of their sister teams.
They have every right to set things up that way. And it's not that unique when it comes to spring "leagues" like EGSL. But in doing so DPL shouldn't claim to be an actual league.
In my mind what separates a true league from a tournament is a commitment among the participating clubs to organize teams (every season) according to their level so, as players grow up in the club soccer system, they can consistently compete against like-talented players/teams (steel sharpening steel or bronze sharpening bronze, as the case may be). Tournaments may fortuitously end with some good matchups from time to time but they serve a very different function than leagues.
To be fair, DPL is a natural (if extreme) extension of the trend started with ECNL. ECNL isn't a true league either. While it has promotion/relegation, all ECNL age group teams for a club are relegated or promoted together, not individual teams. But that was tolerated because ECNL was formed as the top-level national league so there was still pretty good matching of talent.
But now we have DA too. So there is a second top-level national league (made up mostly of what had been 2nd tier clubs). But again people were willing to accept it because it was what US Soccer wanted and was supposed to have higher level coaching and better training than ECNL.
But that wasn't enough I guess. Here in So Cal we've had a third non-league foisted upon us. DPL has all the flaws of DA/ECNL, plus: 1) it has no relegation or promotion whatsoever based on the quality of the teams that actually play in the league, 2) it's not a national league, and 3) it has no claim to having any top teams.
I think people were tolerant of closed leagues for teams that had a legitimate claim to be top teams (ECNL and then DA), but DPL teams fully admit they are not the top (they are 100% reserve teams for their DA teams). So there is no clear reason to give DPL a pass on this.
You can say, what about ECNL? Aren't the ECNL teams second teams now? Well, some are. 14 of the 84 ECNL clubs are also DA clubs and most (but not all) of those clubs try to put their better talent on their DA teams. But it sounds like those few exceptions may change very soon as dual clubs may no longer be allowed.
I understand the prior desire to allow dual clubs and keep the strongest clubs in ECNL. But it's hard to hold yourself out as a parallel top national league if those same clubs are ranking ECNL as inferior to DA.
In my view ECNL is better off letting the dual clubs go. It will be painful in the short term, but over the long term I think it's their best opportunity to draw the talent necessary to sustain themselves as a parallel top league with different rules (as opposed to a JV league).
And if ECNL does end up jettisoning the dual clubs, other changes would surely follow. Perhaps quite good ones:
One option would be for the remaining So Cal ECNL clubs to band together to play in CSL Premier, similar to what was proposed before the CSL/SCDSL schism. The ECNL teams might play their regular ECNL games against each other (with CSL crediting those games as if they had been CSL Premier league games). Then the ECNL teams would play additional games, as needed, against any non-ECNL teams (e.g., Fullerton Rangers or BYSC) that happen to make CSL Premier as well. That might be enough to convince Legends and Eagles to take their DA reserve teams out of DPL and return to Premier. Better to be in a league with a mix of ECNL and other exceptional teams than all reserve teams.
Then what happens to SCDSL? Would the four former dual club's ECNL rosters really want to jump to DPL? Probably not, especially with CSL's Premier division gaining newfound prestige. The SCDSL clubs might worry their league as a whole would start to be considered inferior to CSL.
Perhaps best then to move everyone to SCDSL Champions/Flight 1. Voila, ECNL survives, CSL and SCDSL become stronger, and we get better matchups up and down all the talent levels. DA remains an outlier, serving as a special opportunity for exceptionally talented girls who want to dedicate themselves to soccer above all else.
In any event, as you can see, this is more than a matter of scheduling a few games out of the year or figuring out how many leagues there should be. It goes to the issue of how our girls are going to be developed here and how the top tiers of teams will be matched up.
We have a precious commodity here in So Cal - a large concentration of talented and well-trained players who live within a reasonable driving distance of each other. It would be a shame if we squandered that by continuing to let the clubs Balkanize things. One more closed league and our girls might as well be playing for a local club in Nebraska.
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Simisoccerfan
PREMIER
SocalPapa,
First of all huge praise to you for the single longest post I can remember seeing. Also your proposed ideal league structure sounds great but too bad it will never happen. It’s much more likely to see more new leagues. Also nice job with creating your own definition of a league though by any common definition DPL is a league not a tournament.
First of all huge praise to you for the single longest post I can remember seeing. Also your proposed ideal league structure sounds great but too bad it will never happen. It’s much more likely to see more new leagues. Also nice job with creating your own definition of a league though by any common definition DPL is a league not a tournament.
I didn't create any definitions.
Club soccer in the US has traditionally followed the so-called "league system". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_league A league system allows promotion or relegation among a hierarchy of competitiveness (divisions).
As I explained, DA and ECNL do not follow the league system. They follow a closed model with the same teams playing each year (similar to most of the top US professional sports leagues). But both DA and ECNL are also both top-level national, year-round circuits, so the fact that they are closed is accepted without much complaint.
DPL is an outlier. It doesn't follow the league system (promotion/relegation), yet is local with a limited amount of games over a limited time period. Further, qualification to participate in DPL is not based on the team itself, but on the status of a sister team. In that respect it seems indistinguishable to me from spring tournaments such as EGSL.
In any event, no matter whether we call it a "local closed league" or "tournament", the point is DPL in not just another league. It is structurally (and fundamentally) different from other existing club soccer leagues in Southern California.
SCDSL and CSL may have differences in how teams are relegated or promoted, but both accept that team relegation and promotion are important to player development. DPL's innovation, if any, is its determination that as of U14 the traditional league system is wholly unnecessary for player development, even for players that are not on top teams. Maybe that's the case. Personally, I don't believe so. But there are many many people who are smarter and more experienced than me involved in these decisions, so we will see how it shakes out.
There is no relegation or promotion in SCDSL. Each season the DOC’s apply for the level of play don’t they?
There is promotion and relegation in both CSL and SCDSL. The difference is that in promoting and relegating teams CSL relies first (but not solely) on placement in league standings the prior year, while SCDSL relies first (but not solely) on the recommendations of each club's DOC.
Specifically, the CSL rules state:
"It is the intent of the CSL Board of Directors to promote all first (1st) place bracket winners and to consider relegating two (2) teams out of each bracket from the prior season. However, the CSL Board may, in its sole discretion, refuse to promote or relegate teams out of a particular bracket if, in the opinion of the CSL Board, such promotion or relegation will not provide the best competition or meet the objectives of the gaming circuit."
(The CSL rules also allow the Board to promote or relegate teams other than the 1st place team (or last two placed teams) and to move teams more than 1 bracket in a single year.)
SCDSL rules state:
"Team placement will be made by recommendation of Club Director of Coaching and reviewed by the Flight Review Committee comprised of the Technical Committee and various other volunteer representatives from SCDSL member clubs. Clubs found to be mis-flighting teams from season to season will be subject to review by the Technical Committee and measures may be taken by said Committee to manage and/or approve the flighting of the teams of the violating club for future seasons."
(The SCDSL rules further provide that Champions is to be made up of the "top 11 teams in the birth year".)
DPL has no promotion or relegation whatsoever as it has only one bracket.
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Simisoccerfan
PREMIER
There is no promotion or relagation in the NFL (National Football League) which is also closed and does allow anyone to just join. No one argues it should be called the NFT.
How is that Promotion/Relegation? Your point on Champions Division is well taken but that is all within a single Flight and only u13 and above.
I’m not defending DPL, I actually agree with you there!
Or NBA, NHL, MLS, MLB etc....
Of course. And I specifically mentioned that in my post. I said that a closed model with the same teams playing each other is "similar to most of the top US professional sports leagues" and then explained that DA and ECNL follow that model too, which is accepted because they are the top teams (with presumably no need for re-flighting year to year) and play a year-round season in a nation-wide league. The truth remains, a lower level set of teams playing a limited set of games against each other without any promotion or relegation (re-flighting) from year to year is indistinguishable from a club soccer tournament. But if you want to call it a league, just like EGSL calls their spring tournament a league, go ahead.
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SCDSL has promotion and relegation because teams are re-flighted each year. And performance in league play counts even though the DOCs generally gets to pick the flight. As the rules I quoted state, any club found to be mis-flighting its teams (which finding would be based on league play) will have their teams re-flighted for them the next season. Conversely, CSL rules allow the board to ignore league standings where necessary to "provide the best competition." The point is both leagues use re-flighting (taking prior-year league performance into account to at least some degree) in order to provide the best matchups season to season.
And talking about misnomers, Champions and Europa may be in the same "flight" but that is in name only as they are different levels of competition that don't actually play each other.
So looking at the Vegas schedule posted this morning, I noticed some DPL teams are conspicously absent. Weren't they supposed to get an automatic entry into Vegas? I remember that that was part of the sales pitch.
Another interesting side note, in the 04 age group, they put the top 2 DPL teams (beach & legends) in the top bracket and put the 3rd place ECNL team (Blues Kale) in the next lower bracket.
That is not the "top bracket". The USYS National League, which Beach and Legends are part of, uses this showcase as one of their national events, and has their own bracket in the tournament. All of these USYS games have been scheduled since the beginning of the year.
http://tournaments.usyouthsoccer.org/events/2017-18-National-League/Schedule/14U-Girls/Division+1/
Got it. I remember when I first saw the list I was dumbfounded to see so many teams from non traditional states that we usually see in Vegas.
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