ECNL R

[RandomSoccerFan]

Here's what happens when you have bottom feeders and blowouts in a league.

- The top teams will get frustrated playing teams they know they're going to blowout. They'll consider it a waste of time especially if theres significant travel involved.
- Bottom feeders that dont improve will never improve. Don't try to reason with them or put them on improvement plans because it will never happen.
- Other leagues will try to lure top teams to their league. The bait will be less or no more blowouts / waste of time games.

It's like saying the problem with dogs is that they bark and shed. It may be objectively a true statement - but it's the case almost everywhere. Every league has bottom feeders and blowouts. Believing that isn't the case in some hypothetical "well-run" league where everyone is "close to equal", is a fantasy. It isn't true in any professional league in any sport, any college league, or any youth league, at any level.

As I said before NOCALs association with ECNL seems forced and unnecessary. It would make more sense to be separate and not aligned. The member clubs dont even seem to like it either because they've created 2 different ECRL leagues.

I disagree fully with your interpretation. It doesn't make any sense. Even your justification is non-sensical. ECNL & Norcal evidently enjoyed the tie-up so far to such an extent that they created another combined league between them. Whether we think it's a good idea for one or both of them is irrelevant - they evidently feel differently.

 

[NorCalDad]

Here's what happens when you have bottom feeders and blowouts in a league.

- The top teams will get frustrated playing teams they know they're going to blowout. They'll consider it a waste of time especially if theres significant travel involved.
- Bottom feeders that dont improve will never improve. Don't try to reason with them or put them on improvement plans because it will never happen.
- Other leagues will try to lure top teams to their league. The bait will be less or no more blowouts / waste of time games.

As I said before NOCALs association with ECNL seems forced and unnecessary. It would make more sense to be separate and not aligned. The member clubs dont even seem to like it either because they've created 2 different ECRL leagues.

I suspect NorCal is doing it to so they can still exist. MLSN made the X2 agreement with CalNorth originally last year. It's not a crazy leap to think MLSN could just work with CalNorth and not even look at NorCal. Also MLSN teams actively sway their players away from PDP. I think NorCal probably still does fine U8-U12, but the older groups have been cannibalized by ECRL and MLS2. So they needed to find some kind of relevance.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

I suspect NorCal is doing it to so they can still exist. MLSN made the X2 agreement with CalNorth originally last year. It's not a crazy leap to think MLSN could just work with CalNorth and not even look at NorCal. Also MLSN teams actively sway their players away from PDP. I think NorCal probably still does fine U8-U12, but the older groups have been cannibalized by ECRL and MLS2. So they needed to find some kind of relevance.

I believe this is wildly mistating the relative strength (in terms of both size and financial capability) of Norcal Premier vs. CalNorth (and vs. MLS N). This is the schedule for NorCal Premier for the fall. This is the schedule for just the NPL portion of NorCal Premier for the fall. This is the list of member clubs. There are hundreds of member clubs, with many thousands of teams.

CalNorth is dying, and lost virtually all of their competitive clubs as they have progressively moved over to NorCal Premier over the past five years. MLS2 was a last gasp for the organization to try and stay relevant, and it remains to be seen whether it will be a successful gambit for them. MLS2 is a very small fraction of the size of NorCal Premier, and might not be enough for CalNorth to stand on their own - and will likely require MLS to subsidize them almost entirely for them to continue to exist.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

One particularly sad note in all this is CalNorth continuing to try and market themselves as "the true state cup", because their winner moves on to a national competition. Meanwhile, the CalNorth state cup "winners" are often > #100 in state. Many years ago, it was considered a prestigious honor, but it hasn't been true for a very long time.

 

[NorCalDad]

I believe this is wildly mistating the relative strength (in terms of both size and financial capability) of Norcal Premier vs. CalNorth (and vs. MLS N). This is the schedule for NorCal Premier for the fall. This is the schedule for just the NPL portion of NorCal Premier for the fall. This is the list of member clubs. There are hundreds of member clubs, with many thousands of teams.

CalNorth is dying, and lost virtually all of their competitive clubs as they have progressively moved over to NorCal Premier over the past five years. MLS2 was a last gasp for the organization to try and stay relevant, and it remains to be seen whether it will be a successful gambit for them. MLS2 is a very small fraction of the size of NorCal Premier, and might not be enough for CalNorth to stand on their own - and will likely require MLS to subsidize them almost entirely for them to continue to exist.

It's not really about the size of the two. MLSN/2 lack coverage for U8/U12. They could get CalNorth to do that especially if there's disagreement around BY/SY approach. MLSN clubs now that they have MLS2 really don't need any of NorCal's offerings at U13-U18. The same goes for GA/Aspire. By relevant, I meant involved with the higher levels of soccer. The NorCal premier teams at U13-U18 are pretty much just rec teams -- which is totally different can of worms of debate.

I think CalNorth does some things right. For example, the way they manage ODP vs NorCal's PDP is superior. PDP cuts players at a very young age, prior to growth spurts -- exacerbating one of the core issues with youth soccer. NorCal only allows players that are affiliated with NorCal clubs to participate. ODP resets every year and is open to everyone. ODP also has more competitions nationally. I mean that's if you put any value into those programs to begin with -- I think they're good life experiences for kids asked to participate but I don't think either of them carry as much weight as they used to.

I mean there has to be reasons why NorCal wanted to get more involved with ECNL. I don't think it was simply because "it felt good".

 

[soccer4us]

I would love to know how Los Gatos got ECNL on the boys side. There are NPL (now RL) clubs that are ranked much higher on the boys side in NorCal. Why didn't they get ECNL? The entire thing is a scam IMHO. It's all driven by business ($$$) and back room deals within the old boys network of soccer bros.

You guys complain about RL clubs getting a sweet deal - its nothing compared to ECNL clubs on the girls side. Many of those clubs lose all the time outside of ECNL but they have the ultimate golden handshake. How can clubs like Marin and Pleasanton still have ECNL? Let's be honest, most of their teams are RL level at best. I wonder why they can't turn it around - get some good coaches, and run your clubs right - the talent will come, but something is wrong at those clubs because they can't get good despite having a golden handshake.

The old NPL setup in NorCal was the best - true pro/rel that ensured good match ups. That has all been blown up. As has already been said here some of these clubs in RL stink at many age groups but that is also true in the ECNL and GA - just go look at the scores. It's all stupid. Someone up above mentioned that ECNL needs to expand - this is true and why all of this is happening. ECNL will grow to 15 clubs on both boys and girls side with in the next 5 years would be my guess. Girls just added Odyssey - don't go look at the scores of their games - OUCH. I always wonder about the parents / players on a team that is getting crushed by 5+ goals every game - how do you keep going? How do you keep throwing $$$ at that? I feel for you and I know some of you are out there reading this...would love it hear your thoughts. And not just picking on Odyssey - they have an excuse, they are new to the league - go look at the GA - it's brutal. I feel for those players and parents.

Then there is the ECNL clubs forming their own RL league - I guess they had to do that to protect their B teams - a good business decision for sure. But lets all be clear, at every level of youth soccer in the USA, it is all business first and kids and families last.

What I propose for youth soccer? Pro/Rel for all levels of youth soccer - no more 11-0 games, all games meaningful, players play at their level and have a chance to grow and build their confidence...what a bummer that it can't be like that.

Because of who their current DOC is. Easy answer there.

 

[Highlander]

Because of who their current DOC is. Easy answer there.

So it's not the quality of the teams, players and coaches, but the guy at the top who has some contacts. Proves my point.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

It's not really about the size of the two. MLSN/2 lack coverage for U8/U12. They could get CalNorth to do that especially if there's disagreement around BY/SY approach. MLSN clubs now that they have MLS2 really don't need any of NorCal's offerings at U13-U18. The same goes for GA/Aspire. By relevant, I meant involved with the higher levels of soccer.

I disagree. It's entirely about the size of the two, which is directly related to how many parents have shown their willingness to pay X thousand per year on their product. CalNorth has completely failed as an organization in providing a product that enough people have been convinced enough to support financially. MLS N is able to use that failure to convince them to do pretty much anything they want - and one of the things they wanted was for them to set up a secondary crappy league that they could control. MLS N certainly might have a long-term objective to expand lower and recreate leagues that would more directly compete with NorCal. But CalNorth's own history shows that it certainly hasn't been able to do it.

I think CalNorth does some things right. For example, the way they manage ODP vs NorCal's PDP is superior. PDP cuts players at a very young age, prior to growth spurts -- exacerbating one of the core issues with youth soccer. NorCal only allows players that are affiliated with NorCal clubs to participate. ODP resets every year and is open to everyone. ODP also has more competitions nationally. I mean that's if you put any value into those programs to begin with -- I think they're good life experiences for kids asked to participate but I don't think either of them carry as much weight as they used to.

ODP and PDP in California are completely useless and have been for many years. Neither one of them should be held out as a standard for how things could or should be done to identify and/or develop uniquely talented players. Those that believe that this isn't the case - are fooling themselves.

I mean there has to be reasons why NorCal wanted to get more involved with ECNL. I don't think it was simply because "it felt good".

To get to change the name of their top division from "NPL Champions League" to "ECNL-RL" isn't a win for them? Why wouldn't they want to associate with one of the top leagues in California that competes at a higher level than any of their existing offerings? Both parties - ECNL and Norcal - believe they are getting something out of the partnership; it's clearly different things for both sides.

 

[soccer4us]

So it's not the quality of the teams, players and coaches, but the guy at the top who has some contacts. Proves my point.

Big part of the equation I'd say. One would hope you need some facilities and at least decent talent as well. I don't know the boys side at LGU so they likely have some talent and a few good coaches at least but hard to believe fully deserved ECNL over some other options. You can say that throughout the country in many leagues I am sure as well. Hope it goes well for them though!

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

So it's not the quality of the teams, players and coaches, but the guy at the top who has some contacts. Proves my point.

No, it doesn't. The club needs to have the appropriate teams, players, coaches, facilities, financial prospects, and more - in order to join the league. They are all required - but they're not sufficient. If it doesn't have any connections - it's also not likely to get one of the limited spots.

 

[NorCalDad]

I disagree. It's entirely about the size of the two, which is directly related to how many parents have shown their willingness to pay X thousand per year on their product. CalNorth has completely failed as an organization in providing a product that enough people have been convinced enough to support financially. MLS N is able to use that failure to convince them to do pretty much anything they want - and one of the things they wanted was for them to set up a secondary crappy league that they could control. MLS N certainly might have a long-term objective to expand lower and recreate leagues that would more directly compete with NorCal. But CalNorth's own history shows that it certainly hasn't been able to do it.

Most parents at U8-U12 couldn't tell you the difference between NorCal and CalNorth. If MLSN clubs said...."We're doing CalNorth"....those parents that want their kids doing MLSN would abide.

ODP and PDP in California are completely useless and have been for many years. Neither one of them should be held out as a standard for how things could or should be done to identify and/or develop uniquely talented players. Those that believe that this isn't the case - are fooling themselves.

I don't completely disagree, but I do think those programs are good for players to put themselves into scenarios where they have to compete in unfamiliar scenarios. If you simply compare ODP to PDP, the differences are pretty clear.

To get to change the name of their top division from "NPL Champions League" to "ECNL-RL" isn't a win for them? Why wouldn't they want to associate with one of the top leagues in California that competes at a higher level than any of their existing offerings? Both parties - ECNL and Norcal - believe they are getting something out of the partnership; it's clearly different things for both sides.

I think there are a lot of reasons NOT to do this. One of which is the potential of ostracizing MLSN/GA clubs. But I think you're making my point about relevancy -- part of the reason for this marriage is to still have a hand in higher level soccer.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I suspect NorCal is doing it to so they can still exist. MLSN made the X2 agreement with CalNorth originally last year. It's not a crazy leap to think MLSN could just work with CalNorth and not even look at NorCal. Also MLSN teams actively sway their players away from PDP. I think NorCal probably still does fine U8-U12, but the older groups have been cannibalized by ECRL and MLS2. So they needed to find some kind of relevance.

This makes sense + explains NorCals alignment with ECNL.

So now we're going to have league wars all the way into littles.

So sad and unnecessary.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Most parents at U8-U12 couldn't tell you the difference between NorCal and CalNorth. If MLSN clubs said...."We're doing CalNorth"....those parents that want their kids doing MLSN would abide.

Many, perhaps most, parents couldn't tell the difference or care which league their club is affiliated. But they care very much about their particular experience in club, and the level, quantity, and distance you need to travel to find games. As CalNorth became more and more a ghost town, it was a steady stream of clubs running away, until it became a torrent once the ones left were playing with a handful of also-ran clubs and had to travel halfway across the state to get to them. Club operators know very well that CalNorth is terrible, and they are the ones that were aiming the dollars (that initially come from the parents) at Norcal Premier (and ECNL), and diverting them from CalNorth.

I think there are a lot of reasons NOT to do this. One of which is the potential of ostracizing MLSN/GA clubs.

Carlsbad7 feels the same way. Both leagues have decided that your (and his) opinions aren't the ones that held the day. They evidently think you're wrong - and I think they likely have more inside knowledge on the financials than any of us do.

But I think you're making my point about relevancy -- part of the reason for this marriage is to still have a hand in higher level soccer.

No - your point implied that NorCal was irrelevant now, and had to make this change to stay relevant. That is fundamentally untrue. But rebranding their top league as the lower league of one of the already well-established high-level leagues seems to have worked out well so far. Remember, this happened several seasons ago - it's silly to argue with it as if it just happened last week.

Stepping back from the Pro/Rel component of RL and adding another RL league for already existing ECNL clubs, well that's what this thread is about. Good idea, dumb idea, we're all going to see over the next season or two.

 

[Carlsbad7]

When I try to figure out why someone would make a specific decision, I review the actions they've made in the past and balance that against similar decisions made by their peers.

Other regional leagues like NorCal haven't aligned with ECNL they way they have. Everyone else seems to stay seperate from the older leagues. Its just not a common thing for leagues primarily aimed at youngers to link up to a specific olders league. My personal opinion on this is that they generally don't align to a specific league because there's not enough olders teams to play if you do it.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

You are misclassifying NorCal Premier as an organization that is primarily aimed at youngers. They have hundreds of clubs, putting up teams intended for 7 year-olds through 19 year-olds, and ranging from the lowest level copper teams, through the highest level ECNL-RL teams once in the teen years (was originally NPL Champions league). Yes - there are more teams of the youngers - but that's the same everywhere in the country. If you look across the state (or the country) there are half as many 2009 teams as there are 2012 teams. And if you go to 2007/2008 teams, it goes down a bit from 2009 teams, even though it now has two years of birthdays. At the oldest levels, a good chunk of kids have peeled off for MLS N, ECNL, GA, and even some smaller offshoots like EA - but there still remains a larger population of kids that are in the "non-letter leagues" that are still playing soccer with NorCal Premier and other similar organizations.

You're likely correct - that if there were a bunch of olders leagues competing with each other in an environment were there simply weren't enough kids, the math just doesn't work. But in California, Florida, Texas, and maybe a select few other locations where there are many thousands of kids still playing throughout the age groups, there is plenty of opportunity for clubs to make money fielding teams that aren't just in the few exclusive leagues listed above.

 

[Highlander]

No, it doesn't. The club needs to have the appropriate teams, players, coaches, facilities, financial prospects, and more - in order to join the league. They are all required - but they're not sufficient. If it doesn't have any connections - it's also not likely to get one of the limited spots.

Yes it does as I know what LGU has and what the other clubs have in all those categories and the other clubs have equal if not better on everything other than perhaps the old boys network. I'm sure LGU cut a deal with NorCal to move both Boys MLS Next and Girls GA to ECNL and ECNL-RL. Pretty obvious that's what happened - they don't deserve it on the boys side if you look at things equally - but business is business. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Let's face it - ECNL on the boys side is pretty bad, so who really cares about any of this? Well, the parents care about the badge and will pay up big $$$ for it and are even willing to throw their kid into the meat grinder and lose by 5+ goals every week. It's a great business LOL

 

[soccerdad247]

Yes it does as I know what LGU has and what the other clubs have in all those categories and the other clubs have equal if not better on everything other than perhaps the old boys network. I'm sure LGU cut a deal with NorCal to move both Boys MLS Next and Girls GA to ECNL and ECNL-RL. Pretty obvious that's what happened - they don't deserve it on the boys side if you look at things equally - but business is business. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Let's face it - ECNL on the boys side is pretty bad, so who really cares about any of this? Well, the parents care about the badge and will pay up big $$$ for it and are even willing to throw their kid into the meat grinder and lose by 5+ goals every week. It's a great business LOL

I would argue MLSN on the boys side is just as bad. The league has become nothing more than a glorified rec league for the most part as well - wins and losses don't matter anymore at U13/U14, mandatory playing times regardless if a kid has the level (or even comes to practice) etc....its all pay to play. You pay, you play...all the leagues are the same. MLSN is nothing more than a name that is being used to gobble up all the money out there under the guise of "player development" and "highest level of competitive soccer". And its working - you see all these clubs who now have the 2nd tier of MLSN (which, lets be honest, were just a bunch of NPL or ECNL-RL teams), marketing themselves as MLSN....and its clear parents are falling for it and happily handing over their $5-$6k. Look at some of the results from the 1st week of that tier 2 - 16-0 in some matches, lol.

Nothing will change as long as theres a half dozen or more different leagues all fighting for our money...all it means is everything is diluted and no one is truly good.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I would argue MLSN on the boys side is just as bad. The league has become nothing more than a glorified rec league for the most part as well - wins and losses don't matter anymore at U13/U14, mandatory playing times regardless if a kid has the level (or even comes to practice) etc....its all pay to play. You pay, you play...all the leagues are the same. MLSN is nothing more than a name that is being used to gobble up all the money out there under the guise of "player development" and "highest level of competitive soccer". And its working - you see all these clubs who now have the 2nd tier of MLSN (which, lets be honest, were just a bunch of NPL or ECNL-RL teams), marketing themselves as MLSN....and its clear parents are falling for it and happily handing over their $5-$6k. Look at some of the results from the 1st week of that tier 2 - 16-0 in some matches, lol.

Nothing will change as long as theres a half dozen or more different leagues all fighting for our money...all it means is everything is diluted and no one is truly good.

P2P clubs are both good and bad.

College Soccer (in its current form) is what screws everything up.

At the youngest ages P2P soccer brings out the most players. In other countries soccer when young is free so nobody really takes it seriously because they have no skin in the game. However when players start getting older P2P becomes an albatross holding talented players back to maximize profits. Acadamies at this age take off because they only move forward players with potential and because its free the only ones playing love the game for the game itself.

Colleges + scholorships are a shiney light at the end of the dark P2P tunnel. This keeps parents and players engaged and continuing to pay because just maybe they'll get their money back in the form of a scholorship.

If you remove college from the equation olders P2P wouldn't exist.

 

[NorCalDad]

I would argue MLSN on the boys side is just as bad. The league has become nothing more than a glorified rec league for the most part as well - wins and losses don't matter anymore at U13/U14, mandatory playing times regardless if a kid has the level (or even comes to practice) etc....its all pay to play. You pay, you play...all the leagues are the same. MLSN is nothing more than a name that is being used to gobble up all the money out there under the guise of "player development" and "highest level of competitive soccer". And its working - you see all these clubs who now have the 2nd tier of MLSN (which, lets be honest, were just a bunch of NPL or ECNL-RL teams), marketing themselves as MLSN....and its clear parents are falling for it and happily handing over their $5-$6k. Look at some of the results from the 1st week of that tier 2 - 16-0 in some matches, lol.

Nothing will change as long as theres a half dozen or more different leagues all fighting for our money...all it means is everything is diluted and no one is truly good.

I think when I say MLSN is better it has more to do with where the stronger players are going. It's no different than GA vs ECNL on the girls side. By and large the stronger players are going to ECNL on the girls side. It has nothing to do with the leagues themselves, the clubs, or the coaching really. It's just where critical mass is and where players believe they will get the most exposure.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Pretty obvious that's what happened - they don't deserve it on the boys side if you look at things equally - but business is business.

This is clearly not what the people running ECNL believe. They felt that Los Gatos deserved the spot. "Business is business" means that they chose the club that is most likely able to grow their business. Not agreeing with their rationale is certainly anyone's prerogative - but your beliefs on who should "deserve a spot" and who shouldn't, don't matter much to those actually making the decisions.

I would argue MLSN on the boys side is just as bad. The league has become nothing more than a glorified rec league for the most part as well - wins and losses don't matter anymore at U13/U14, mandatory playing times regardless if a kid has the level (or even comes to practice) etc....its all pay to play. You pay, you play...all the leagues are the same.

MLSN has many of the same problems as other competing leagues - but that's not saying that the leagues are equivalent (in team strength, or anything else) On the boys side they are significantly, measurably, unquestionably stronger than any other youth boys league. A top MLS N team will embarrass a top team from any other league, an average MLS N team would expect to beat an average team from any other league, and yes - there are terrible MLS N teams - who would fare well against terrible teams in other leagues.

I think when I say MLSN is better it has more to do with where the stronger players are going. It's no different than GA vs ECNL on the girls side. By and large the stronger players are going to ECNL on the girls side. It has nothing to do with the leagues themselves, the clubs, or the coaching really. It's just where critical mass is and where players believe they will get the most exposure.

This.

 

[Highlander]

This is clearly not what the people running ECNL believe. They felt that Los Gatos deserved the spot. "Business is business" means that they chose the club that is most likely able to grow their business. Not agreeing with their rationale is certainly anyone's prerogative - but your beliefs on who should "deserve a spot" and who shouldn't, don't matter much to those actually making the decisions.

I think you are making my point - its a business decision by ECNL and NorCal who runs ECNL in this region. If it were only based on the merit of the teams, the facilities, the coaches, the club leadership, then other clubs would also have already been added to ECNL.