ECNL Broken?

[dad4]

I’m not even convinced we need significant financial backing.

If you want to run elite training camps 3x per week for the 40,000 parents who *think* their kid is elite, that costs money. The money is collected from the 40,000 parents, and you have a letter league.

If you want to run elite camps/playdates one time a week for the 800 players you actually care about, it costs far less money. And it actually brings top players together, which is what you want.

The catch is, you can’t outsource the elite camp system to your letter league coach. If you do that, he’ll try to poach the top players, and other coaches will stop sending kids.

 

[Messi>CR7]

I agree that the pay to play model is flawed, but until there is serious $ in Women's professional soccer, we are stuck with it.

That pretty much summed it up. I don't follow Europe's pro women's league, but I remember in 2019 La Liga women held a strike just to fight for a humbling €20K in minimum salary. The fact that women's league in England was promptly cancelled during Covid while the top two men's flights managed to finish the season should provide some evidence on how profitable the women's league is.

Club soccer industry is a business. It's kind of silly to bash clubs or leagues for trying to make money. Apple charges $1,000 for the iPhone 11 Pro instead of $800 because they want to separate that extra $200 from your wallet. They don't charge you $1,200 because you might opt for a Samsung instead. Whether it's worth it or not has more to do with the value (often intangible) it provides than the absolute dollar value. ECNL's charter is to provide a service so it's easier for kids to get college exposure. It's not their goal to make soccer ubiquitous and affordable, or to ensure the success of USWNT.

How important is it for soccer to be affordable so more kids can participate thus all talented players can be discovered? First world problem IMHO. I think colleges tuition needs to be more affordable for all, and so should healthcare. If we as a nation feel it's imperative for US to be world class in soccer and want to throw some PPP money into it, I'm all for it. First thing we need to do is convert a basketball court into a futsal court at every local school. Imagine kids can just hop on their bikes and go play pick-up at the playground now? There would be no need to drive to Arizona or Utah just to play some games.

 

[happy9]

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That pretty much summed it up. I don't follow Europe's pro women's league, but I remember in 2019 La Liga women held a strike just to fight for a humbling €20K in minimum salary. The fact that women's league in England was promptly cancelled during Covid while the top two men's flights managed to finish the season should provide some evidence on how profitable the women's league is.

Club soccer industry is a business. It's kind of silly to bash clubs or leagues for trying to make money. Apple charges $1,000 for the iPhone 11 Pro instead of $800 because they want to separate that extra $200 from your wallet. They don't charge you $1,200 because you might opt for a Samsung instead. Whether it's worth it or not has more to do with the value (often intangible) it provides than the absolute dollar value. ECNL's charter is to provide a service so it's easier for kids to get college exposure. It's not their goal to make soccer ubiquitous and affordable, or to ensure the success of USWNT.

How important is it for soccer to be affordable so more kids can participate thus all talented players can be discovered? First world problem IMHO. I think colleges tuition needs to be more affordable for all, and so should healthcare. If we as a nation feel it's imperative for US to be world class in soccer and want to throw some PPP money into it, I'm all for it. First thing we need to do is convert a basketball court into a futsal court at every local school. Imagine kids can just hop on their bikes and go play pick-up at the playground now? There would be no need to drive to Arizona or Utah just to play some games.

It's definitely a business and it's most definitely a first world problem for us . Which to me is the irony of soccer in the US. Their certainly isn't an uproar that the men's team sucks and in 10 years or less, there will not be an uproar that the women's side will be on par or sub par VS the rest of the world. Soccer is barely considered a sport in this country and no one really cares, except those on kids soccer forums. Many on here are crossing fingers and hoping that the ROI on a letter league pans out with paid tuition. It's why ECNL and others exist.

And yes, to your point about basketball courts into futsal courts - next time you are on the east coast, NJ specifically, check them out, they are all over the place. Definitely culturally driven.

 

[Franco2020]

That pretty much summed it up. I don't follow Europe's pro women's league, but I remember in 2019 La Liga women held a strike just to fight for a humbling €20K in minimum salary. The fact that women's league in England was promptly cancelled during Covid while the top two men's flights managed to finish the season should provide some evidence on how profitable the women's league is.

Club soccer industry is a business. It's kind of silly to bash clubs or leagues for trying to make money. Apple charges $1,000 for the iPhone 11 Pro instead of $800 because they want to separate that extra $200 from your wallet. They don't charge you $1,200 because you might opt for a Samsung instead. Whether it's worth it or not has more to do with the value (often intangible) it provides than the absolute dollar value. ECNL's charter is to provide a service so it's easier for kids to get college exposure. It's not their goal to make soccer ubiquitous and affordable, or to ensure the success of USWNT.

How important is it for soccer to be affordable so more kids can participate thus all talented players can be discovered? First world problem IMHO. I think colleges tuition needs to be more affordable for all, and so should healthcare. If we as a nation feel it's imperative for US to be world class in soccer and want to throw some PPP money into it, I'm all for it. First thing we need to do is convert a basketball court into a futsal court at every local school. Imagine kids can just hop on their bikes and go play pick-up at the playground now? There would be no need to drive to Arizona or Utah just to play some games.

[/QUOTE]

Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side. Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.

 

[youthsportsugghhh]

Any news on the games that were played around the country in ECNL the last couple of weekends? Scores/Quality/Competitiveness? My daughters club just started going to 3 trainings a week here in NorCal, but the air has kind of slowed that down too. Once we do get back to playing those teams that are already playing will have a decided advantage, but I don't think for that long over the teams that aren't. That of course will also depend on the talent of the teams not playing as of yet -- quality will always be quality.

 

[youthsportsugghhh]

Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side. Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.
[/QUOTE]
Part of that is that they don't have the structure when they start learning the game -- they just try things to see what works and learn the beauty in the creativity of the game of soccer. It also allows them to be able to adapt to any situation instead of the rigidness of the "taught" game here in the US. I have tried to get my daughter(s) to join pickup games at the park, they don't want to, but it would definitely expand their games.

 

[happy9]

Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side. Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, and that's my point. In the US we pay thousands (you, me, them, us) of dollars a year on a sport that historically and culturally is played on dirt fields and concrete courts all over the world. Yes, EPL, La Liga, etc have awesome facilities and they foot the bills for their academies. I get it.

It's not going to change here in the US. Our men's team will always be middle of the pack, barely making international tournaments. I'm fine with that, I still watch other sports (well, not lately, not even MLS, but I digress). My kids will eventually stop playing soccer and my interests will shift to other things or back to things.

Our women's side is starting to migrate to Europe. The lure of the champions league is too much - Alex Morgan (Lyon), Tobin Heath (Man United), Rose Lavelle (Man City), Sam Mewis (Man city). This is just the beginning. Maybe they are moving out of the way of upcoming talent. This doesn't bode well for the NWSL. Their brand is tied to the WMNT. At some point, and if the dollars are there, our best women players will go direct to Europe, just like our men do and then what?

 

[LASTMAN14]

Agree, its a business, but that does not make it the best model to develop world class talent, at least not on the men's side. Ultimately, the best players in the world still come from poverty. Soccer is a poor man's sport everywhere in the world but the US, so if we want to grow our National team, we must find a way to include all levels of talent regardless of income.

Absolutely, and that's my point. In the US we pay thousands (you, me, them, us) of dollars a year on a sport that historically and culturally is played on dirt fields and concrete courts all over the world. Yes, EPL, La Liga, etc have awesome facilities and they foot the bills for their academies. I get it.

It's not going to change here in the US. Our men's team will always be middle of the pack, barely making international tournaments. I'm fine with that, I still watch other sports (well, not lately, not even MLS, but I digress). My kids will eventually stop playing soccer and my interests will shift to other things or back to things.

Our women's side is starting to migrate to Europe. The lure of the champions league is too much - Alex Morgan (Lyon), Tobin Heath (Man United), Rose Lavelle (Man City), Sam Mewis (Man city). This is just the beginning. Maybe they are moving out of the way of upcoming talent. This doesn't bode well for the NWSL. Their brand is tied to the WMNT. At some point, and if the dollars are there, our best women players will go direct to Europe, just like our men do and then what?
[/QUOTE]
The pay structure with the teams in England allows them to financially offer players more. They are able to do this because those funds do not need to come from the team, but rather any entity affiliated with it. This advantage will draw the best talent. For example Sam Kerr at Chelsea is paid 400k. Most of that does not come from the Chelsea women's team but from an entity owned by Roman Abramovich.

 

[Messi>CR7]

Our women's side is starting to migrate to Europe. The lure of the champions league is too much - Alex Morgan (Lyon), Tobin Heath (Man United), Rose Lavelle (Man City), Sam Mewis (Man city). This is just the beginning. Maybe they are moving out of the way of upcoming talent. This doesn't bode well for the NWSL. Their brand is tied to the WMNT. At some point, and if the dollars are there, our best women players will go direct to Europe, just like our men do and then what?

Nothing wrong with that scenario if we're talking about building the best national teams possible. If the best training and competition take place in Europe, by all means our national team players should be there.

For many Latin American countries, the working model for men has been:
-Local clubs invest in young talent
-Sell good players (18 or older) to big European clubs for transfer fees to recoup their investment
-These players work on their craft in Europe, and return to their countries to play Copa America, Olympics, and World Cup.

Or we can go the China route and spend tax payers' money if soccer is important to us as a nation:

'China's soccer dream': Why Beijing wants to dominate the sport by 2050

President Xi Jinping, an avid soccer fan, is recruiting thousands of kindergartens across the country to realise China's ambitious "soccer dream" to dominate the sport by 2050.

www.abc.net.au

Where will be the investment come from for women in the US? I agree pay-to-play leaves out talents especially on the girls side, but money needs to come from somewhere if you want more inclusion.

 

[happy9]

Nothing wrong with that scenario if we're talking about building the best national teams possible. If the best training and competition take place in Europe, by all means our national team players should be there.

For many Latin American countries, the working model for men has been:
-Local clubs invest in young talent
-Sell good players (18 or older) to big European clubs for transfer fees to recoup their investment
-These players work on their craft in Europe, and return to their countries to play Copa America, Olympics, and World Cup.

Or we can go the China route and spend tax payers' money if soccer is important to us as a nation:

'China's soccer dream': Why Beijing wants to dominate the sport by 2050

President Xi Jinping, an avid soccer fan, is recruiting thousands of kindergartens across the country to realise China's ambitious "soccer dream" to dominate the sport by 2050.

www.abc.net.au

Where will be the investment come from for women in the US? I agree pay-to-play leaves out talents especially on the girls side, but money needs to come from somewhere if you want more inclusion.

We won't do anything, we'll continue with the current model. There are rumblings of the CCL, USYS, etc.. raising money to fund soccer at the grass roots level. Let's hope that takes hold. There isn't enough interest (outside of profit) to drive a national inclusion effort, boys or girls. Our best athletes don't play soccer and they likely never will. Status quo will be maintained, we'll get fired up every 4 years. For those of us that like soccer, we'll cross our fingers that old euro players come to the MLS. LA Galaxy was a blast to watch last year and now you have Chichirito, which should be fun. Wait until Messi finally makes it to Inter Miami. I had a blast watching Drogba play for a year for Phoenix Rising.

 

[LASTMAN14]

We won't do anything, we'll continue with the current model. There are rumblings of the CCL, USYS, etc.. raising money to fund soccer at the grass roots level. Let's hope that takes hold. There isn't enough interest (outside of profit) to drive a national inclusion effort, boys or girls. Our best athletes don't play soccer and they likely never will. Status quo will be maintained, we'll get fired up every 4 years. For those of us that like soccer, we'll cross our fingers that old euro players come to the MLS. LA Galaxy was a blast to watch last year and now you have Chichirito, which should be fun. Wait until Messi finally makes it to Inter Miami. I had a blast watching Drogba play for a year for Phoenix Rising.

Question-I’ve heard others make this statement before, but who do you think our best athletes are specifically? Curious on your thoughts.

 

[baller]

Any news on the games that were played around the country in ECNL the last couple of weekends? Scores/Quality/Competitiveness? My daughters club just started going to 3 trainings a week here in NorCal, but the air has kind of slowed that down too. Once we do get back to playing those teams that are already playing will have a decided advantage, but I don't think for that long over the teams that aren't. That of course will also depend on the talent of the teams not playing as of yet -- quality will always be quality.

Are you playing non-cohorted, full contact (ie, traditional soccer/training sessions)? Was still "distance" training before 150+ AQI shut things down completely.

 

[youthsportsugghhh]

Are you playing non-cohorted, full contact (ie, traditional soccer/training sessions)? Was still "distance" training before 150+ AQI shut things down completely.

"Distance"

 

[happy9]

Question-I’ve heard others make this statement before, but who do you think our best athletes are specifically? Curious on your thoughts.

That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity. I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet. There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind). I think it's a matter of opinion. Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer - Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa. I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it. Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4? He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.

The list is open to debate of course. Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.

My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone. Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are. There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.

 

[youthsportsugghhh]

Question-I’ve heard others make this statement before, but who do you think our best athletes are specifically? Curious on your thoughts.

On the girls side it is closer than on the boys side, but I would say that the better all-around athletes are basketball players as an overall group.

 

[Dubs]

That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity. I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet. There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind). I think it's a matter of opinion. Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer - Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa. I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it. Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4? He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.

The list is open to debate of course. Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.

My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone. Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are. There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.

Oh boy... you opened up Pandora's box with this one . As you say, it's subjective...however, IMHO, it is unquestionably pro hockey players. They are the most skilled athletes on the planet. The combination of skills, in terms of hand/eye, skating (alone) and physicality of the game put these people on top.

 

[happy9]

Oh boy... you opened up Pandora's box with this one . As you say, it's subjective...however, IMHO, it is unquestionably pro hockey players. They are the most skilled athletes on the planet. The combination of skills, in terms of hand/eye, skating (alone) and physicality of the game put these people on top.

Hockey players are cool and have a unique skill. I won't argue that at all. I bet you Larry Bird played hockey and decided to play basketball..

 

[Soccer43]

how are you defining "best athlete"? what is your criteria for that list?

 

[LASTMAN14]

That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity. I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet. There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind). I think it's a matter of opinion. Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer - Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa. I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it. Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4? He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.

The list is open to debate of course. Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.

My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone. Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are. There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.

Very good response. And any answer is subjective. No doubt that’s true. The examples in the list of athletes was strong. And the mention of basketball in its own and as Dubs suggesting of hockey makes a strong case as well. I agree that these two sports may have the best well rounded athletes especially at the pro/int level. Do you think that most of those athletes based on purely their athletic aptitude (not training in a sport) and physical build (height, natural weight, etc) could actually play soccer at the highest level?

 

[Messi>CR7]

That's a great question and answers will very due to subjectivity. I personally think, in terms of being athletic, basketball players are the greatest athletes on the planet. There are plenty of players in the NFL who were collegiate basketball players (Antonio Gates, Julius Peppers, Jimmy Graham come to mind). I think it's a matter of opinion. Then there are the NBA players who were influenced by soccer - Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Luca Doncic, Leandro Barbosa. I'm sure there are others. Maybe Messi played another sport, but I doubt it. Can you imagine Lebron James playing the 9 or the 4? He's an incredible athlete and likely could have played in the NFL.

The list is open to debate of course. Toughest athletes on the planet? --> Cyclist on the Pro Tour.

My point is that in the US, the athletic kids gravitate towards the sports on TV, the sport where they can idolize someone. Not too many kids in Milwaukee know who Michael Bradley, Jozy Altidore or Clint Dempsey are. There are some kids who do, but most kids haven't a clue.

I also think basketball players are the best athletes. However, IMO most NBA players would be too tall to excel in soccer since the ball is played close to the ground. Take away centerbacks and goalkeepers, I would guess the best soccer players in the world average 5'10", +- 2 inches.

The problem in the US, as you correctly pointed out, is that kids watch TV and most play basketball and football. But a majority of them can't make it to college or pro because they don't have the required size. Perhaps we can implement a draconian policy such that if your dad is <5'9" and your mom is <5'3", you can only participate in soccer but not basketball or football. If we could do that, US will be a powerhouse in soccer.

 

[LASTMAN14]

I also think basketball players are the best athletes. However, IMO most NBA players would be too tall to excel in soccer since the ball is played close to the ground. Take away centerbacks and goalkeepers, I would guess the best soccer players in the world average 5'10", +- 2 inches.

The problem in the US, as you correctly pointed out, is that kids watch TV and most play basketball and football. But a majority of them can't make it to college or pro because they don't have the required size. Perhaps we can implement a draconian policy such that if your dad is <5'9" and your mom is <5'3", you can only participate in soccer but not basketball or football. If we could do that, US will be a powerhouse in soccer.

I forgot to mention that in my response to H9 that I to and like you accept that the major pro sports here are a huge factor in attracting athletes despite their ability, skill, etc.