Double Yellow

Frank said:
There is no parent that should be instructing a ref on how to act even though you may be right. That is not the chain of command. Refs have assessors, peers, associations and leagues to give them instruction.
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But do they? I’m sure they do once they initially join an association, but having worked with a few associations closely and meeting/speaking with Assignors and Assessors it seems like Associations are hurting for Referees themselves so they aren’t afforded the luxury of being selective.
 
SPChamp1 said:
I understand the DOGSO guidelines. In this particular case, there was the LB about 3 steps behind the attacker. The 2 CB’s were between the attacker and the goal with the LCB being about 8yds from the play and the RCB being about 6 yds from the goal line. The attackers 1st touch on the ball was taking him toward the end line but toward the corner flag instead of toward goal.

Not a single one of the 4 criteria for a DOGSO was met in this particular case and that is what I’m saying. So a yellow card to the GK for being a “technical” foul would have absolutely been warranted. When I spoke to Referee after the game in a non confrontational manner, I asked him what he saw to consider it a DOGSO and his response was simply that the player made an attempt at the ball but missed and made contact with an attacker. I asked him which of the 4 D’s this particular play met, he said those didn’t matter and the moment the player made contact with an attacker without touching the ball it become a DOGSO situation. We ended up having a decent length conversation about this but at the end, he was still convinced that he was right even with me presenting my case.
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Agree with you now that the full picture is known. Foul with Yellow card or no card depending on the temperature of the game and if the card was needed. Sounds like you have a ref that has not been to training in couple years and has not opened the LOTG in just as long.
 
Not_that_Serious said:
come on, coaches arent expecting a call to be explained across the field. usually that happens if there is a break in play or talking to the AR who will usually relay it later. good you check players, have kids crossed checks to the point you can hear the collusion and have to yell at refs to stop the game - never mind the foul, check on the kid who isnt moving on the floor.

yes, 9/10 calls you know what is going on. but if you see a kid kick a ball at his teammates stomach and the ball goes out of bounds with no opposing player near them and give the ball to the team who kicked the ball, one might ask "Hey can i get clarification on that call". youll get random whistles where clearly nothing is going on and you have to ask "hey can i get a clarification" - you would be surprised how many times you get "No" or "Stop!". Even when no one is being rude and believe the question is fair. This rarely happened over a decade of games Ive been on the sidelines to hear - but I hear it way more often now. Maybe the crazy guy I first heard years ago is teaching refs now? A couple years ago one of the refs who said the same thing was telling other refs (during a tournament), "Dont say much. Control it. You have to get in and out of games then collect." Which led me to telling the guy that was shit advice and stop spreading how to be a bad ref to other refs - which led to dude telling me how much of a worthless human being I was. Not all refs are bad, but the bad ones are pretty unforgettable.
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If you go to the monthly referee meetings, you were instructed on the guidance from Cal South concerning comments from the bench and sidelines. The guidance was not to engage spectators or tolerate them yelling at the referee crew. Similar guidance was given concerning the coaches, but to be more tolerant and only engage them when necessary. There have been numerous incidents of Referee physical abuse over the past couple years and most of those involved a coach asking a question then escalating the situation when the referee gave an answer the coach and spectators did not like and things escalated. My daughter recently went through the D license course or whatever they call it now. She said during the training the instructor recommended not engaging in questions to the referee because the referee does not have to respond.
 
timbuck said:
Now you gotta tell the story-
Was it a couple of legit calls?
Was the ref being a bit sensitive?
Was your kid playing “on the edge”? (a good thing in my book).
Should the coach have subbed him after the 1st one because the ref was calling a tight game? (I’ve subbed a player on a yellow in the 3rd game of a tournament. Yellow about 10 minutes in and the ref was much tighter than our previous games. We were already into the finals and I didn’t want to risk her missing the final. Didn’t matter- we got killed in the final anyway).
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Nosey fella aren’t ya... lol and quite possibly just as gullible.
 
SPChamp1 said:
But do they? I’m sure they do once they initially join an association, but having worked with a few associations closely and meeting/speaking with Assignors and Assessors it seems like Associations are hurting for Referees themselves so they aren’t afforded the luxury of being selective.
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My associations do and they take it seriously and make every effort for more experienced refs to give feedback almost every weekend.

There are all levels of refs. Some have to go farther to be “good”. Most take it serious enough to work to improve.
 
How many referees attend the monthly meetings?
Sounds like a lot of work for a weekend job.
For those of you that complain about referees, how many of you would spend most of your weekend reffing youth soccer games and also attend these meetings.
Think about that next time you feel the need to show a referee a video you took from your iPhone from the comfort of your tommy Bahamas chair.
 
Surfref said:
Remember with the 2018/2019 LOTG there is no Yellow card DOGSO outside the penalty area. To be a Yellow card DOGSO the qualifying infraction must be in the penalty area. If the attacker was headed in the general Direction of the goal, with the keeper being the last Defender between him and the goal, the ball within playing Distance and just outside of the penalty area (Distance to goal), the keeper clipping (tripping) the attacker would normally meet the criteria for a DOGSO Red card. But I was not there to see it. I called a very similar DOGSO Red a couple weeks ago that the coach and manager kept yelling that it was a DOGSO Yellow. They were wrong, because there cannot be a DOGSO Yellow outside of the penalty area.
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I love the referee scolding about terminology: a person is discounted because they use an old term like obstruction, or handball, or sideline....

They may have been wrong in yelling "it was a DOGSO Yellow," but they likely meant that it should have been a yellow for a foul on a promising attack or any other number of reasons.
 
coachrefparent said:
I love the referee scolding about terminology: a person is discounted because they use an old term like obstruction, or handball, or sideline....

They may have been wrong in yelling "it was a DOGSO Yellow," but they likely meant that it should have been a yellow for a foul on a promising attack or any other number of reasons.
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The coach and I talked after the game. The coach had a vague understanding of DOGSO yellow, but was not aware that the infraction had to occur within the penalty area. Once I explained the 4D’s criteria and why there was no yellow card option the, coach agreed with me. He may not have liked the ejection, but he understood why.
 
I just want to call out a ref that I think is one of the best or pretty close to the best ref in Southern Ca-Kevin Morales...top notch. When I see him as the CR for the game, I know the game will be played under control. Makes the game easy to watch.

Surfref do you know him?
 
Surfref said:
If you go to the monthly referee meetings, you were instructed on the guidance from Cal South concerning comments from the bench and sidelines. The guidance was not to engage spectators or tolerate them yelling at the referee crew. Similar guidance was given concerning the coaches, but to be more tolerant and only engage them when necessary. There have been numerous incidents of Referee physical abuse over the past couple years and most of those involved a coach asking a question then escalating the situation when the referee gave an answer the coach and spectators did not like and things escalated. My daughter recently went through the D license course or whatever they call it now. She said during the training the instructor recommended not engaging in questions to the referee because the referee does not have to respond.
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you keep referring to the spectators, im only talking about coaches. Im also aware about how leagues & cal south want coaches to engage refs. never anything wrong with asking a question, about clarification, in a respectful manner . No yelling or disrespect involved. Ignoring comments, or snarky comments masked as questions are one thing, but to ignore "legit" questions is another. Situations dont usually escalate when questions are asked in a certain manner, an experienced ref will know what is legit or not. To ignore the question will only probably only agitate the sideline on other calls. Most of the refs who i have encountered who have the "i dont need to respond" attitude are those who feel they are never wrong , just there because it pays, or know they never have to explain a bad call with this attitude. never seen this at the pro level, refs will tell you what the call is and tell you to move on. i know this isnt the pro level, but instruction and goal should be to mimic the most professional setting available. again, i understand some coaches/sidelines are nuts, see it every week, but still need to be allowed some engagement - in a respectful manner.
 
Not_that_Serious said:
you keep referring to the spectators, im only talking about coaches. Im also aware about how leagues & cal south want coaches to engage refs. never anything wrong with asking a question, about clarification, in a respectful manner . No yelling or disrespect involved. Ignoring comments, or snarky comments masked as questions are one thing, but to ignore "legit" questions is another. Situations dont usually escalate when questions are asked in a certain manner, an experienced ref will know what is legit or not. To ignore the question will only probably only agitate the sideline on other calls. Most of the refs who i have encountered who have the "i dont need to respond" attitude are those who feel they are never wrong , just there because it pays, or know they never have to explain a bad call with this attitude. never seen this at the pro level, refs will tell you what the call is and tell you to move on. i know this isnt the pro level, but instruction and goal should be to mimic the most professional setting available. again, i understand some coaches/sidelines are nuts, see it every week, but still need to be allowed some engagement - in a respectful manner.
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Professional games have a 4th official that can communicate with the coach. There are rarely 4th officials on youth games. If play is still on going (no call), players want a quick kick, ceremonial kick (move the wall) or I have to deal with a possible injury, explaining something to the coach is my last priority. It is not because I am ignoring the coach, but because I have game management issues to handle that are more important than explaining a call or non-call to a coach. If I have the luxury of time and the coach is close enough that I don’t have to yell, I will give them a very very brief explanation. Sometimes I will just give the coach a thumbs up so they know I heard them and other times I may indicate with one of the old college or HS signals to indicate what foul I called. The last thing I want to do, especially, with HS age players is to take my eye off of the players after a foul. Players are smart and will watch a referee and as soon as the referee looks away the will retaliate or do something dumb.
 
Does anyone know what happened to the 2005 Placentia Pats flight 1 team for this season? Their wins have been wiped and it seems they have been ejected for the season.
 
*GOBEARGO* said:
I just want to call out a ref that I think is one of the best or pretty close to the best ref in Southern Ca-Kevin Morales...top notch. When I see him as the CR for the game, I know the game will be played under control. Makes the game easy to watch.

Surfref do you know him?
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I know him, he is a Temecula referee and is the Vice President of the TVSRA. He is a solid referee and he will get a lot of games. I think reffing is his full time commitment, not 100% on that, but he definitely likes the 8+ game weekends.

He refs a tight game, he loves mentoring young up and comers. He and I have had an interesting debate on how much we should tolerate from parents. He has a pretty low tolerance for mouthy parents, I prefer to ignore them as long as the ire is directed at me and not the players. He knows the laws for sure.
 
SPChamp1 said:
I understand the DOGSO guidelines. In this particular case, there was the LB about 3 steps behind the attacker. The 2 CB’s were between the attacker and the goal with the LCB being about 8yds from the play and the RCB being about 6 yds from the goal line. The attackers 1st touch on the ball was taking him toward the end line but toward the corner flag instead of toward goal.
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I think the problem with the spectator perspective (your perspective) is that you (and I if I am being a spectator) are not focused on the laws part of the game while we watch. Instead we are watching the game.

What I mean to say is that I have heard professional referee comms and they will actually say "DOGSO DOGSO DOGSO!" before a foul is even committed because if you see the foul and THEN try to look around where the defenders are, you will more often than not see 2-3 defenders behind the foul. DOGSO is a call that needs to be anticipated.

That 1-2 seconds it takes to see the foul, judge the foul, decide to call the foul, and then the time it takes to physically bring the whistle from your waist you your mouth is a huge difference.
Let us say the process is done ridiculously fast in half a second. Assuming most players can sprint 40 yards in 5 seconds, you are looking at an over 5 yards difference between where the defenders are when the foul occurs and where they are a half second later when you try and see if it is DOGSO or not.

So I am taking your "facts" about the position of the defenders with a grain of salt. As for the direction, if you are going toward the corner flag at a 45 degree angle from the center of the field it wouldn't meet the Direction criteria, but even 30 degrees from the center of the field I would still be thinking DOGSO. From parts other than the center of the field it is more of an art than a science. Remember the 4 D's are only criteria. Ie:I would overlook a weak Control criteria if the other 3 D's are pretty blatant. (weak, not non-existent)
 
99% Coaches/Parents asking for calls to be explained is A) passive aggresiveness that they don't like your call, and or B) people who watch too much NFL football or NBA basketball.
 
Not_that_Serious said:
same every week. when a ref does a good job one should tell him or her (as i have done myself) - "you did a great job". even if they did bad, still say "thank you".
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after 1 daughter's game, I was walking to collect the other daughter from the nearby playground. CR from our game randomly made eye contact as I was approaching him and he had that initial look of 'oh shit, here it comes' so I quickly defused by saying "good job today, thank you" and he looked sooooo relieved.
 
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