Do ref complaints matter?

MWN said:
The unfortunate thing here is the next time this Dad see's a DOGSO (but outside the box) and a red card is given he is going to be so confused and probably yell and scream and kick, not realizing the triple punishment justification for yellow in the box and red outside the box. Then when the DOGSO is for a "holding, pulling or pushing" in the box and a red card is given, the poor guy's head will explode and some kid will be fatherless.
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So that is why we go through all of the training every year, to make the calls that will cause some Soccer Crazy dad’s head to explode.
 
MWN said:
The unfortunate thing here is the next time this Dad see's a DOGSO (but outside the box) and a red card is given he is going to be so confused and probably yell and scream and kick, not realizing the triple punishment justification for yellow in the box and red outside the box. Then when the DOGSO is for a "holding, pulling or pushing" in the box and a red card is given, the poor guy's head will explode and some kid will be fatherless.
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And if you showed your post to 98% of parents, and 80% of coaches that are yelling at referees, they would have no idea what this means.
Surfref said:
So that is why we go through all of the training every year, to make the calls that will cause some Soccer Crazy dad’s head to explode.
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Yes, that makes it all worth it!
 
I love how technology make parents feel empowered... will this video show a ref who made a bad call? Spare the world those stupid videos. Instead teach the kids on how to navigate through life’s obstacles and how to deal with adversity. Teach the kids to take matters into their own hands by playing the type of game that produce results. Be positive and stop looking for excuses
 
Toch said:
I love how technology make parents feel empowered... will this video show a ref who made a bad call? Spare the world those stupid videos. Instead teach the kids on how to navigate through life’s obstacles and how to deal with adversity. Teach the kids to take matters into their own hands by playing the type of game that produce results. Be positive and stop looking for excuses
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In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report). When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.
 
Fact said:
In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report). When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.
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no.
as i've advocated many times, if there is a referee who "allows" a game to get out of control, probably more accurately, can't stop the game from getting out of control, then there's always a coach who could pull off rowdy players, or god forbid, players themselves who could just simply play soccer and not kickbox. i have yet to see a referee injure a player. I'm not saying there isn't an instance when a small amount of culpability might be laid on a referee who doesn't take action for a very high temperature game, but at no time is a referee encouraging players to hurt each other.

I had two injuries in a game recently. one was likely a broken wrist when a player was pushed out of bounds and fell poorly on his wrist. it was foul, not a caution, just a foul. the other injury was two players kicking the same ball very forcefully. one player had a serious knee injury from the force. was i "likely the source of mismanagement"?
 
Fact said:
In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report). When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.
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Yes 110%. The ref doesn't cause a team to play dirty -- but they can enable the team to KEEP playing dirty, raising the odds of serious injury.
 
TangoCity said:
Yes 110%. The ref doesn't cause a team to play dirty -- but they can enable the team to KEEP playing dirty, raising the odds of serious injury.
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enable a team to keep playing dirty....... no. not really.
a referee can only punish infractions and penalize misconduct. if the team still wants to act like thugs, they still can.
 
baldref said:
enable a team to keep playing dirty....... no. not really.
a referee can only punish infractions and penalize misconduct. if the team still wants to act like thugs, they still can.
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Oh come on. Safe, fun, fair. It is the duty of the referee crew to provide a safe, fun and fair game. If the game is not safe they can talk to, caution and or remove players/coaches. If they are unwilling to use these tools then they are ENABLING the team to keep playing dirty and become complicit in the problem -- AN UNSFAFE GAME!
 
TangoCity said:
Oh come on. Safe, fun, fair. It is the duty of the referee crew to provide a safe, fun and fair game. If the game is not safe they can talk to, caution and or remove players/coaches. If they are unwilling to use these tools then they are ENABLING the team to keep playing dirty and become complicit in the problem -- AN UNSFAFE GAME!
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Wow! You must’ve just learned that word from some self help book and couldn’t wait to use it
 
baldref said:
enable a team to keep playing dirty....... no. not really.
a referee can only punish infractions and penalize misconduct. if the team still wants to act like thugs, they still can.
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The issue arises when the referee doesn't punish infractions and penalize misconduct. I assume you are unfamiliar with that since it never happens in the games you referee.
 
The responsibility for game play falls first on the players. Players have a duty to play in a "careful" manner and respect their opponents. When a player plays in a "careless" manner a foul occurs. When a players plays in a "reckless" manner a caution should be awarded. When a player is violent or intends to injure another player ... they are sent off. The referee's response is reactionary to a past event.

Second, it falls on the coach. The temperament of a team is directly proportional to the temperament of the coach. Coaches that vocally challenge and chastise players who display careless or reckless play and support the referee crew are the good ones and fulfilling their obligation to ensure play within the rules. Coaches that challenge referee calls (and parents) create additional motivation for the players to play in a careless and/or reckless manner. The technical term used for these coaches and parents is "IA" (irresponsible assholes)

The referee is the last defense ... kinda like a goal keeper. Empowered to stop the nonsense and manage the game BECAUSE the players and coaches have failed in their obligations.
 
MWN said:
The referee is the last defense ... kinda like a goal keeper. Empowered to stop the nonsense and manage the game BECAUSE the players and coaches have failed in their obligations.
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and my point is, that there are no guarantees that cards, send offs, etc., cures all ills. the responsibility lies with the coaches, players, and the parents of the players.

also, as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, at younger ages, and on lower level games, the referee might not be experienced enough to know exactly how to manage thuggery.
 
espola said:
The issue arises when the referee doesn't punish infractions and penalize misconduct. I assume you are unfamiliar with that since it never happens in the games you referee.
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i assume you are unfamiliar with intelligence since you have never displayed it on these boards.
 
Fact said:
In my opinion it is about safety not feeling empowered and if there is a ref that lets a game get out of control and kids are injured due to their indifference they should be called out (not at the field but in a game report). When a game has several injuries that take multiple kids out of the game, the ref is the likely source of mismanagement.
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I agreed with your initial statement about safety, but not about your assertion that multiple injuries are the refs fault. Too many people blame the Referee for injuries that the referee had no control over. Sure if there is A player that commits a dangerous tackle and the referee does not give a card and it happens again and someone is hurt than it may fall on the referee as the one at fault, but the layer is still also responsible for the dangerous tackle. I had a game last week that resulted in four bad injuries, two players going to the hospital via ambulance, another taken by POV to the ER and a forth that probably should have gone to the ER. None of them were the Referee team’s fault.

Injury 1 & 2 were from from a ball out in the open that two players ran at full speed to get and kicked it at the same time. Result was complete tib/fib break and ambulance ride for player 1 and broken wrist for player 2. Completely clean play. Injury 3 was the keeper diving to make a save hit his head on the goalpost and had to leave the game with concussion symptoms. No fault of the Referee. Injury 4 and second ambulance was a player taking off in a sprint to catch a through ball tore his Achilles’ tendon (it rolled up into his calf. No fault of the referee.
 
baldref said:
and my point is, that there are no guarantees that cards, send offs, etc., cures all ills. the responsibility lies with the coaches, players, and the parents of the players.

also, as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, at younger ages, and on lower level games, the referee might not be experienced enough to know exactly how to manage thuggery.
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Of course there are no guarantees but if those tools aren't used - or used even close to correctl
Surfref said:
I agreed with your initial statement about safety, but not about your assertion that multiple injuries are the refs fault. Too many people blame the Referee for injuries that the referee had no control over. Sure if there is A player that commits a dangerous tackle and the referee does not give a card and it happens again and someone is hurt than it may fall on the referee as the one at fault, but the layer is still also responsible for the dangerous tackle. I had a game last week that resulted in four bad injuries, two players going to the hospital via ambulance, another taken by POV to the ER and a forth that probably should have gone to the ER. None of them were the Referee team’s fault.

Injury 1 & 2 were from from a ball out in the open that two players ran at full speed to get and kicked it at the same time. Result was complete tib/fib break and ambulance ride for player 1 and broken wrist for player 2. Completely clean play. Injury 3 was the keeper diving to make a save hit his head on the goalpost and had to leave the game with concussion symptoms. No fault of the Referee. Injury 4 and second ambulance was a player taking off in a sprint to catch a through ball tore his Achilles’ tendon (it rolled up into his calf. No fault of the referee.
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I think that is what most people are saying. The player/coach (maybe even parent of player) is responsible for the dirty play and injury the first time. When there are a dozen wreckless fouls with many of them bordering on violent with teammates congratulating each other for injuring players and the referee has done NOTHING other than call some of them fouls then the referee becomes complicit in the carnage. Yes, it is not the referee slamming a players head into the ground, yes it is not the referee who throws a punch at someone's face -- but when the referee utterly fails to act on it then he/she has enabled those dirty players to continue what they are doing. Yes, the players and teams are the ones who should be punished but that referee needs to be retrained or find another low paying hobby.
 
Surfref said:
I agreed with your initial statement about safety, but not about your assertion that multiple injuries are the refs fault. Too many people blame the Referee for injuries that the referee had no control over. Sure if there is A player that commits a dangerous tackle and the referee does not give a card and it happens again and someone is hurt than it may fall on the referee as the one at fault, but the layer is still also responsible for the dangerous tackle. I had a game last week that resulted in four bad injuries, two players going to the hospital via ambulance, another taken by POV to the ER and a forth that probably should have gone to the ER. None of them were the Referee team’s fault.

Injury 1 & 2 were from from a ball out in the open that two players ran at full speed to get and kicked it at the same time. Result was complete tib/fib break and ambulance ride for player 1 and broken wrist for player 2. Completely clean play. Injury 3 was the keeper diving to make a save hit his head on the goalpost and had to leave the game with concussion symptoms. No fault of the Referee. Injury 4 and second ambulance was a player taking off in a sprint to catch a through ball tore his Achilles’ tendon (it rolled up into his calf. No fault of the referee.
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I don't think that anyone is saying that most injuries are the primary fault of the referee. However, its the USSF's position that the referee's fundamental responsibility is for the safety of the players. We have all seen refs, although, very few, that have not fulfilled that responsibility. What I believe the non-ref posters are trying to articulate is the safety situation that you described below (emphasis added). No one can deny that allowing nasty play can easily lead to unneeded injuries. For me the only reason a complaint should be filed against a ref should be in those situations where the ref compromised player safety or was abusive.

Surfref said:
After games my DD sometimes refers to college soccer as a rugby match. DD is also a referee and she tends to blame the college refs for letting games get out of hand to the point that the players will take enforcement into their own hands. She had a game last week that was like this. On one play with the ball at my DD feet, the defender had a hold of her collar and was pulling back and down. The referee had a good view of this from about 10 yards away and did not make the call. The next thing that happened was a reminder to me that my little 5'2" daughter is not always nice and sweet. DD sent an elbow into the defenders ribs than a straight arm to her face before the defender let go. No call from the referee. Most of the overly physical nasty play I have seen during college games is in a large part due to the referee not keeping the game under control and allowing the nasty play.
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TangoCity said:
Of course there are no guarantees but if those tools aren't used - or used even close to correctl


I think that is what most people are saying. The player/coach (maybe even parent of player) is responsible for the dirty play and injury the first time. When there are a dozen wreckless fouls with many of them bordering on violent with teammates congratulating each other for injuring players and the referee has done NOTHING other than call some of them fouls then the referee becomes complicit in the carnage. Yes, it is not the referee slamming a players head into the ground, yes it is not the referee who throws a punch at someone's face -- but when the referee utterly fails to act on it then he/she has enabled those dirty players to continue what they are doing. Yes, the players and teams are the ones who should be punished but that referee needs to be retrained or find another low paying hobby.
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I made $1337 last month with an average of $44 an hour. Doesn’t sound low paying to me and it definitely is not a hobby. The IRS auditor that reviewed my tax return two years ago refered to refereeing as a professional career since we have to be credentialed and maintain continuing education.

I will agree with you that if the Referee does not use the tools (fouls, cards, voice, advantage) at their disposal to manage the game that they are partially responsible. The majority of the time referees do use their tools and players still act badly, but the Referee gets the blame when it should be the coach and player. There are a few referees out there that probably should drop their whistle in the trash and go find something else to do on the weekends. The majority, 99 percent, of refs enter the field with the intention of calling a good, safe, and competitive game.
 
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