College Entrance Scam includes former Yale Women's Soccer Coach

Justafan said:
So you’re saying that economically speaking it’s a net negative? If that was the case, we would have been bankrupt a long time ago and we certainly wouldn’t have moved up to be the 5th largest economic power in the world.

Notice I’m only speaking in economic terms, because all other issues you may have with illegal immigration are certainly subjective.
Click to expand...
I wonder what Kate Steinle thinks about that?
 
dk_b said:
Overlooked benefits: the cost of our produce and other agg products, the cost of our dinners when we eat out, the cost of our lodging when we stay in any of these places for soccer tournaments and showcases, the cost of construction if we are able to build or remodel our home, the cost of caring for our little ones so that we can go to our own jobs, etc. Obviously, not every picker is an undocumented worker but the presence of undocumented workers impacts the salaries that the business owners are willing to pay and that keeps the cost of a head of lettuce or those tomatoes much lower than they would otherwise be, just like childcare costs for me were way higher b/c there were not as many undocumented caregivers than the costs for my sister-in-law who lives in an area with an entire industry of undocumented babysitters. Other overlooked benefits are the sales taxes that those folks are paying, just everyone else, when they buy their TP, soap, plastic bags, shirts, jeans, gas, etc. Do the social programming costs outweigh these benefits? Is there a comprehensive study on the true - not just direct but ascertainable indirect - economic costs/benefits of undocumented workers? Some are making pretty definitive assertions about "costs" - not that I don't believe you but I'd love to see the sources of those costs (in a rigorous study, not an op-ed piece, no matter what side of the position you are on).
Click to expand...

I see your general argument is that it helps the economy because it’s cheap labor and keeps consumer costs down.

In other words, you agree with republicans that the minimum wage is too high for a sustainable economy - which is contradictory to liberal demands to increase the min wage, in other words, liberals created this problem.

Furthermore, this means that the liberal claim saying the min wage is not a living wage is bunk since obviously illegal immigrants are able to thrive and even enable their kids to succeed and go to college.

On top of that, libs want to expand healthcare and social security - which would put more strain on businesses. Since this is withheld from legal employee paychecks, illegals don’t pay into this system because it is illegal activity and the wages need to be kept off the books (paid in cash) and as such they are not only driving down wages for already poor unskilled workers as you stated, but they are drawing down funds from Medicare programs or skipping out on medical bills altogether when they use public services. It’s stealing, plain and simple.

You admitted illegal immigrants are also taking jobs away from legal unskilled workers - leaving these workers with less options and the higher likelihood they’ll be on welfare - another strain on the economy. If your argument is that US citizens aren’t willing to do that kind of work for min wage, then they need to either pay more or the farmers/hotels can apply for H1B visas so they can hire workers who are willing - they can come from Honduras, wherever but this guarantees the businesses are responsible for these workers and taxes are collected and paid.

Bottom line, there is no excuse for illegal activity and keeping these off the books and your arguments for illegal immigration are entirely hypocritical to the liberal position on wages and social services.
 
Sheriff Joe said:
I wonder what Kate Steinle thinks about that?
Click to expand...

Did you give up on the economic argument? Kate Steinle, very legitimate point. So do we demonize all illegal immigrants for one nut job? Do we take everybody’s guns away for the actions of Stephen Paddock, the Vegas shooter? I can respect either side you take, but be consistent.
 
I’m not saying those things and you know that I am not. What I am saying is that the economic argument - undocumented people are a drain on the economy - is often stated as an absolute but I don’t recall seeing data to back that up. The data might but if it does not consider ways in which undocumented immigrants contribute to our economy is overly simplistic at best and disingenuous or misleading or intentionally ignorant at worst.

Without the name calling and taking of concepts out of context, and with the caveat that it is an odd digression from the original topic, I think the discussion is a good one and I think it is important to consider opposing viewpoints (I don’t consider disagreements to be character flaws). I do think honest discussion is essential to civil discussion. And I always enjoy learning - whether on the micro level (about specific stories of specific individuals) or on a macro level.
 
Justafan said:
Did you give up on the economic argument? Kate Steinle, very legitimate point. So do we demonize all illegal immigrants for one nut job? Do we take everybody’s guns away for the actions of Stephen Paddock, the Vegas shooter? I can respect either side you take, but be consistent.
Click to expand...
The economic issue is a non issue, we spend billions of education, medication and incarceration. I will gladly pay the price.
We have to deal with whatever crime citizens commit, but we sure don't need to import crime and disease.
Democrats will do anything for votes and power.
 
Supermodel56 said:
I see your general argument is that it helps the economy because it’s cheap labor and keeps consumer costs down.

In other words, you agree with republicans that the minimum wage is too high for a sustainable economy - which is contradictory to liberal demands to increase the min wage, in other words, liberals created this problem.

Furthermore, this means that the liberal claim saying the min wage is not a living wage is bunk since obviously illegal immigrants are able to thrive and even enable their kids to succeed and go to college.

On top of that, libs want to expand healthcare and social security - which would put more strain on businesses. Since this is withheld from legal employee paychecks, illegals don’t pay into this system because it is illegal activity and the wages need to be kept off the books (paid in cash) and as such they are not only driving down wages for already poor unskilled workers as you stated, but they are drawing down funds from Medicare programs or skipping out on medical bills altogether when they use public services. It’s stealing, plain and simple.

You admitted illegal immigrants are also taking jobs away from legal unskilled workers - leaving these workers with less options and the higher likelihood they’ll be on welfare - another strain on the economy. If your argument is that US citizens aren’t willing to do that kind of work for min wage, then they need to either pay more or the farmers/hotels can apply for H1B visas so they can hire workers who are willing - they can come from Honduras, wherever but this guarantees the businesses are responsible for these workers and taxes are collected and paid.

Bottom line, there is no excuse for illegal activity and keeping these off the books and your arguments for illegal immigration are entirely hypocritical to the liberal position on wages and social services.
Click to expand...

You never answered my question. Your going off on tangents and did not address dk_b’s point. Putting the “liberal” label on everybody without addressing the content of the argument is weak. Your not being intellectually honest.

Even after I admitted there are costs to illegal immigration, Sheriff Joe did not have the integrity to admit there are any benefits. He’s so emotionally involved that he can’t handle even admitting a very basic fact.

Look, you may not like or agree with America’s or California’s economic model, but you can’t argue that it has been successful. What’s the model? Take young, healthy, hungry, and ambitious immigrants (legal or not) and let them be the fuel to your economy and growth. It’s that simple. In California we have an endless supply of this “fuel.” It has made both the USA and California number one.

You know why SoCal is number one in girls soccer, because we have a seemingly endless supply of talent coming through the pipelines. The South and the SEC dominate college football because they have an endless supply of 6’6” 350 lb linemen who can run a 4.5 40.

Now I’m going to anticipate the “well, I’m only against illegal immigration, let them do it legally and get in line...”. First, there has never been a line to do America’s dirty work (think cotton, railroads, and fruits and vegetables).
Before 1923, as long as you were not missing two arms an a leg, you were allowed in. Sound like open borders? There have been restrictions ever since but we all know illegal immigration exists. Have American businesses turned a blind eye, of course and we all know why.

You want to change the economic model and kick all illegal immigrants out, thats’s fine, just don’t shot on the illegals immigrants and pretend you did not gain any benefit from it.
 
Justafan said:
You never answered my question. Your going off on tangents and did not address dk_b’s point. Putting the “liberal” label on everybody without addressing the content of the argument is weak. Your not being intellectually honest.

Even after I admitted there are costs to illegal immigration, Sheriff Joe did not have the integrity to admit there are any benefits. He’s so emotionally involved that he can’t handle even admitting a very basic fact.

Look, you may not like or agree with America’s or California’s economic model, but you can’t argue that it has been successful. What’s the model? Take young, healthy, hungry, and ambitious immigrants (legal or not) and let them be the fuel to your economy and growth. It’s that simple. In California we have an endless supply of this “fuel.” It has made both the USA and California number one.

You know why SoCal is number one in girls soccer, because we have a seemingly endless supply of talent coming through the pipelines. The South and the SEC dominate college football because they have an endless supply of 6’6” 350 lb linemen who can run a 4.5 40.

Now I’m going to anticipate the “well, I’m only against illegal immigration, let them do it legally and get in line...”. First, there has never been a line to do America’s dirty work (think cotton, railroads, and fruits and vegetables).
Before 1923, as long as you were not missing two arms an a leg, you were allowed in. Sound like open borders? There have been restrictions ever since but we all know illegal immigration exists. Have American businesses turned a blind eye, of course and we all know why.

You want to change the economic model and kick all illegal immigrants out, thats’s fine, just don’t shot on the illegals immigrants and pretend you did not gain any benefit from it.
Click to expand...

I did answer your question.

You’re saying they help the economy but you provide no numbers with direct correlation to back it up any positives are significantly outweighed by the negatives. Sure businesses have relied on them even today, but they do not contribute more to the economy than if they were legal employees.

Here’s why:

1)the jobs performed by illegal immigrants today are jobs that need to be done by someone. Hence, hiring a legal worker will not only generate the same local sales as paying an illegal would, except this legal worker would get paid more and have more disposable income - higher sales more sales tax collected.

2) illegals often send money back to their home country to support their families. This takes more money away from the US economy and in essence contributes to the trade deficit because money is spent out of the country.

3) monies paid to illegals are under the table and not taxed, therefore they also do not contribute to paying for gov services which is part of the economy.

4) re: lower cost of goods. The corporations and farmers are the real winners, not the end consumer nor our economy. Again it’s a net negative effect because paying more for a service to an American citizen contributes more to the economy since the money is going to be spent here, taxes are paid, etc... all the above. And like I said before, the wage issue can be addressed with lowering the minimum wage and/or using H1B visas.

Bottom line, every job given to an illegal immigrant or outsourced takes away a job from an American citizen and/or lowers wages. We have a responsibility to take care of our own citizens, especially the poor folks and their unskilled labor. They have few enough options as it is. In one breath you’re saying give them help to get into college, in the next you’re like let’s give their parents jobs away to illegal immigrants to save a few bucks an hour.

Re: railroads, please read up on this. This was not illegal activity rather gov approved. Look into the story of Leland Stanford who was against using Chinese workers only to find they did a better job than the whites but still paid them less.

If you’re black, latino, or Asian, pay attention. Justafan’s (liberals) argument for illegal immigration is because they want to pay you less. This is in the corporate interest, not yours. This has nothing to do with equality and it works against you, quit being fooled.

It’s the same as Bernie Sanders plan to make college free. This puts the burden of educating the workforce on the taxpayers and what happens if we have more qualified workers? The worker pool grows and wages decrease - basically making your degree worth less by creating more competition for the same jobs - great for corporations, bad for employees. Even worse for the middle class because not only are you paying for your kids to get that degree, you’re paying for the poor kids to get the same degree to compete against yours - double whammy.
 
Justafan said:
You never answered my question. Your going off on tangents and did not address dk_b’s point. Putting the “liberal” label on everybody without addressing the content of the argument is weak. Your not being intellectually honest.

Even after I admitted there are costs to illegal immigration, Sheriff Joe did not have the integrity to admit there are any benefits. He’s so emotionally involved that he can’t handle even admitting a very basic fact.

Look, you may not like or agree with America’s or California’s economic model, but you can’t argue that it has been successful. What’s the model? Take young, healthy, hungry, and ambitious immigrants (legal or not) and let them be the fuel to your economy and growth. It’s that simple. In California we have an endless supply of this “fuel.” It has made both the USA and California number one.

You know why SoCal is number one in girls soccer, because we have a seemingly endless supply of talent coming through the pipelines. The South and the SEC dominate college football because they have an endless supply of 6’6” 350 lb linemen who can run a 4.5 40.

Now I’m going to anticipate the “well, I’m only against illegal immigration, let them do it legally and get in line...”. First, there has never been a line to do America’s dirty work (think cotton, railroads, and fruits and vegetables).
Before 1923, as long as you were not missing two arms an a leg, you were allowed in. Sound like open borders? There have been restrictions ever since but we all know illegal immigration exists. Have American businesses turned a blind eye, of course and we all know why.

You want to change the economic model and kick all illegal immigrants out, thats’s fine, just don’t shot on the illegals immigrants and pretend you did not gain any benefit from it.
Click to expand...
No need to put words in my mouth, let's enforce our current laws, how about that?
 
Can you imagine CA with an educational system that could actually teach, in English? Maybe we can put the school standards back where they were before the invasion.

Can you imagine going to an emergency room and not have to wait?
 
Sheriff Joe said:
Analysis: Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $116 billion annually | National
Watchdog.org
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...hcrIBDA3wcwb0fKAU&ampcf=1&cshid=1558228398309
Click to expand...

I appreciate you linking that but it still only measures direct inputs and outflows. It does not address less direct but still measurable data points that are essential for assessing economic impact. Take the child care example - if paying a certain market rate (i) allows a 2d parent to take a higher paying job that allows more taxes from the hiring family (income and sales and property because of a more expensive home) (ii) allows the childcare worker to rent an apt, spend money on daily living expenses, the only direct measure in that article would be school and other social services and sales tax but not the added income for the 2d parent, the increase consumption for two households, etc.

I’m not sitting here saying that the net net economic impact is definitively positive because I’m neither that knowledgeable nor have I ever seen a study that looks at the true impact. I can say that none of you knows either - or if you do know with certainty you have not shown that data (that article certainly doesn’t). A highly complex problem is rarely describable or solvable in simple absolutes.
 
Can you all take this to the off topic section? I would prefer not to keep checking in on the college scam topic for any updates just to read more of the same old arguments back and forth.
 
dk_b said:
I appreciate you linking that but it still only measures direct inputs and outflows. It does not address less direct but still measurable data points that are essential for assessing economic impact. Take the child care example - if paying a certain market rate (i) allows a 2d parent to take a higher paying job that allows more taxes from the hiring family (income and sales and property because of a more expensive home) (ii) allows the childcare worker to rent an apt, spend money on daily living expenses, the only direct measure in that article would be school and other social services and sales tax but not the added income for the 2d parent, the increase consumption for two households, etc.

I’m not sitting here saying that the net net economic impact is definitively positive because I’m neither that knowledgeable nor have I ever seen a study that looks at the true impact. I can say that none of you knows either - or if you do know with certainty you have not shown that data (that article certainly doesn’t). A highly complex problem is rarely describable or solvable in simple absolutes.
Click to expand...

either you believe you should pay people a living wage or you don’t. You can’t demand a minimum wage law and then also support illegal activity to get around that law. There is no justifiable reason for this and home care workers should be paid a living wage.

You’ve got to be kidding. The reason supporting this is bad is because it opens up a very high risk for human trafficking and serious abuse. This is why minimum wage laws are important to be followed. People who have illegal immigrants living in their home and only paying them nominal wages to care for their kids, cook, clean, etc... SHOULD BE ARRESTED. Can you imagine? It could easily become modern day slavery - the illegal worker has no recourse out of fear they’ll get deported so you’re going to have owners who don’t have to pay them anything, mistreat them however they want, whatever. This is what leads to human trafficking and is not okay by any means.
 
Sheriff Joe said:
The College Board: Dumbing Down America
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/05/the_college_board_dumbing_down_america.html
Click to expand...

This.

“If there’s anything we learned from the college admissions cheating scandal it's that students from wealthy families aren’t automatically advantaged. These were highly advantaged kids who still needed to cheat their way into good schools because they or their parents felt entitled to success. Tests only discriminate against those who don’t know the answers. ”

The questions on the test don’t know nor care what your race nor background is. It’s a test that tests for reasoning and acquired knowledge, not race, nothing else. Either you know the answers or you don’t, either you came prepared for it or you didn’t. Either you can complete it in time, or you can’t - or did you forget that the most commonly abused feature in the cheating scandal was the time limit exception for kids with learning disabilities?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top