Club Team Tiers

Interesting anecdotal/aside: I have always been one of the parents encouraging my kids from the sideline (always positive/general, never coaching or yelling specific instructions). I think my two most used phrases are probably "hustle" and "get there".

I have found myself shouting less, though, as my son has gotten better. To wit, it feels like he's beyond the point of needing encouragement to put in the effort on the field, so I find myself now mainly just applauding good plays, and not otherwise being very vocal on the sideline. Whereas previously it seemed like there were a lot of low-energy moments, now it seems like the effort is there, and it's just a matter of execution, for which yelling from the sideline doesn't really help.

I can see how (notwithstanding the occasional jackass parent) the sideline would be much more quiet at higher levels of play.
Sometimes you just need to let things go.

Here's a fun one you'll enjoy...

My youngest started playing competitive and at a recent tournament I brought my chair + sat about 4 feet off the line to watch. Several of the other parents did the same. When the game started a couple of the parents actually stood in front of the other parents that were sitting in chairs while the game was going on to yell at their kids while walking to and down the line.

Sigh...
 
Ask him yourself. If it's not a good enough explanation, stop paying him $10/year. Immediately jumping to "who's behind it, can we trust him or is something nefarious going on" says more about you than either him or the app.
I’ve got a feeling you have already let him know about this glitch. His choice if he wants to explain it here or not. But this is a major red flag for me.
 
But this is a major red flag for me.
A major red flag of what? You think he's purposely manipulating the data for a single U14 team? That's silly. Do you have any idea how much badly structured data that app handles from how many disparate sources? The amount of work it takes to keep it as accurate as it is is astounding.
 
A major red flag of what? You think he's purposely manipulating the data for a single U14 team? That's silly. Do you have any idea how much badly structured data that app handles from how many disparate sources? The amount of work it takes to keep it as accurate as it is is astounding.
Major red flag because it’s very hard to screw this one up. And this one is easy to spot because that team is no way 4th in California. If he can screw that one up, how many ones that are hard to spot are also screwed up?
 
Frankly, your statements come across as if you may not have much of an idea about how any of this works. First, it looks like one of the recalcs has gone through, and here's where that team is showing now:

pats 2014b - 2.jpg

I think over the next day or so as it goes through recalcs, Defense will likely start to look more normal as well.

The way SR works, is to apply a rating to a team entity, based on how well it does against another team entity. If one entity does better than expected, its rating goes up slightly; conversely if it does worse than expected, its rating goes down slightly. Once team has enough rated games in its recent history, its rating becomes public and it's now on the ranked list. The point of all of this isn't to create a list, and to make sure the list is "right". It is to predict game performance/outcomes, and if Team A plays Team B, and Team A has a higher rating than Team B, Team A should win. This can be (and is) checked recursively, as often as every week or two. Of the last few thousand most recent games, how many predictions came true (a higher rated team won), and how many didn't. That measure of predictivity is the main objective of the entire system, and however high it can get, the more likely the individual ratings will predict game results, and a downstream result is that putting the ratings in an ordered list will show teams in order of best performing to least performing. A number to keep in mind from last season, was that SR was running at over 82% predictivity for all games, which means it was picking about 5 of 6 winners correctly (where there was a winner). If you want more recent #'s, shoot the support email a question, I'm sure they'd be happy to share. The predictivity number of one of the other well known ranking systems is so far off from this they should be embarrassed. IMO I think the predictivity data should be posted publicly within the app as the number updates over time - but any time it's posted publicly on boards like this or on any of the FB groups, there's more chatter from people who simply don't understand what it really means, that it becomes more frustrating to try and explain than to just leave it unsaid. But ultimately, that is the reason that people should trust or not trust the predictions, and therefore the ratings. It is measured quite often at the macro level, and I'm sure there are all kinds of tweaks over time as the data shifts to optimize that number (number of weeks of games that are relevant, how many games are necessary to be relevant, how much to discount a game 2 months ago vs 1 month ago, how much to discount a 5-0 win vs. a 3-2 win, and any number of additional factors that someone can modify if they have access to all of the data). Another check that any user can do over time is just to follow the results for a team they are familiar with. Over time - is it predicting outcomes at an expected rate, or is it not? The good news - is that it generally is, that's what the macro numbers can show. Seeing that it predicted X number of wins for that team correctly over the last 2 or 3 seasons, is also a good indicator and way to build trust (or not). All of this can also be seen just by looking down the game history, and seeing how many games were significant overperforms or underperforms against their rating (Green/Red); most teams have a smaller number of these than one might expect.

Now in this particular case, you noticed an outlier - and from time to time these pop up - but the good news is they seem to be temporary. After a short period of time, when the recalcs run again, it becomes normalized. If you look at the first screenshot, this team was a 43.x, and now it is a 41.x. If you look at just the handful of games in their history, and how they performed against other teams and their own ratings, back of the napkin math shows that 41.x is probably more accurate, and 43.x makes no sense. I've seen that before, for example merging a team 15th in state with more of their games in an entity ranked 22nd in state, and the merged team is suddenly #1 in state or even #1 nationally. There is some yet not understood reason why this happens sometimes, and the initial rating is inflated. The good news is that this has always turned out to be temporary, and all will be sorted with just a little patience as it recalcs.

The math isn't particularly complicated here, but it is quite alot of pretty iffy quality data sometimes from hundreds of different sources, and it is quite a production that they have put together to make it as automated as they have. Whenever I notice math or other display errors, I've worked with them to try and understand how/what/why to see what I wasn't getting, or if it was a bug to be squashed. There have been quite a few tweaks over time to make the data that is displayed more accurate. As one example, the club ratings were for quite a long time not quite matching what we could see through the app if we did the same math manually. It turns out that there are/were a bunch of different categories about whether a team rating is trusted enough to show publicly, and one that is stored against the team - for when enough games showed that it would be public. The team list in a club would show some ratings for teams, but those ratings weren't trusted enough to be averaged in as a team counted in the club rating. Tracking that bug down took weeks, until enough examples appeared that showed more clearly what was happening - and the club ratings calc was then adjusted to more correctly display what one would expect by seeing the ratings of the individual teams.

This one is perhaps even more insidious, but appears less impactful. For an unknown reason, on rare occasions, when data is added manually, it seems that the initial calcs show unexpected results. Since this is such a small amount of data compared to the vast quantity that is ingested and matched automatically, it's not a big deal in the scheme of things - rankings and ratings over time do not seem to be affected much at all. And any of the outliers appear to fix themselves in short order.

IMO, calling this a "major red flag" and wondering who is behind this and how can we trust this, as if this puts much or all of the other data at risk, greatly exaggerates what the actual problem may be or its impact.
 
I actually understand how this works. This is not unlike the UTR rating in tennis or the WTN rating. Those rating methods are endorsed by the tennis governing bodies. The game data for that ecnl team does not support its rating at 4th or even at 23rd as it is showing now. If they don’t exactly know how it came about, it doesn’t give us a lot of confidence with the rest of the data. I don’t know what affiliation you have with soccer ranking but you seem to get offended when the data is questioned. I suggest you spend some time and figure this out. Don’t think you can call it an outlier. It probably has something to do with them being a new team and perhaps them being an “ecnl” team a weighting factor is applied so they don’t have to work their way up from the bottom. I don’t know just guessing here.
 
The game data for that ecnl team does not support its rating at 4th or even at 23rd as it is showing now. If they don’t exactly know how it came about, it doesn’t give us a lot of confidence with the rest of the data.

You're probably right that due to lack of data for that team, it's a big wonky right now.
However, as more game data get added for that team, I reckon the ranking up or down will get stabilized and settle into a position.

I, for one, is surprised how accurate the score predictions are for a system/algorithm that isn't all that complicated.

For a team with a lot of data versing another team with a lot of data, it's pretty accurate - maybe off by a goal... sure there are exceptions where it's way off... but for the most part, seems pretty good.

I have no affiliation and do not know the guy behind it!
I just like predictive models and numbers... :)
 
Major red flag because it’s very hard to screw this one up. And this one is easy to spot because that team is no way 4th in California. If he can screw that one up, how many ones that are hard to spot are also screwed up?
You make it sound as if you think this is done by hand. "He" isn't doing anything other than running a well-established algorithm over the results from various sources. Some anomaly got into the data when the age groups were changed for the new season. These things happen and eventually work themselves out.
 
It probably has something to do with them being a new team and perhaps them being an “ecnl” team a weighting factor is applied so they don’t have to work their way up from the bottom. I don’t know just guessing here.
There's no weighting applied for the league a team is in. In fact, if you look at the data overall, top teams in lower leagues tend to do better because they get boosts from blowing teams out.
 
There's no weighting applied for the league a team is in. In fact, if you look at the data overall, top teams in lower leagues tend to do better because they get boosts from blowing teams out.
This is not true.

if you're a better team in a crappy league to advance in ranking you'll need to beat opponents by 8+ goals a game. Although I haven't seen it (because Im not looking that closely) I bet there's situations where a really good team will play a terrible team and win 1-0 but go down in ranking.

What ends up happening is good teams in bad leagues are forced to blow out opponents. When this happens opponent parents think you're being a bully and players start cheap shoting / fouling to get back at you the only way they can.

Nobody wants to blow out opponents.
 
if you're a better team in a crappy league to advance in ranking you'll need to beat opponents by 8+ goals a game. Although I haven't seen it (because Im not looking that closely) I bet there's situations where a really good team will play a terrible team and win 1-0 but go down in ranking.

What ends up happening is good teams in bad leagues are forced to blow out opponents. When this happens opponent parents think you're being a bully and players start cheap shoting / fouling to get back at you the only way they can.

Nobody wants to blow out opponents.

I think that this is relatively accurate. If a team generally plays opponents of lower ratings and wins by X; they are going to have a lower rating themselves compared to a team that generally plays opponents with somewhat higher ratings and wins by the same X. It may seem unfair to the first team that they have to beat teams by significantly more, to achieve the same numerical rating as the team that is playing teams with higher ratings - but that's reality. If they want a higher rating, they need to do exactly that - either play teams with a higher rating, or beat teams with a lower rating by more.

But this is just interpretation of the data afterwards - not a direct objective. The objective of the algorithms are if the rating of the team will fairly predict the outcomes of its future matches against its opponents. The objective of the team is to win matches. Nobody's main objective should be getting a high score on SR (confidential tip: play in highest level league, win more than other teams).
 
Your reactions don't make this seem likely.
Ok Mark. I am just a whistle blower. If the tournaments are using this app for the brackets, we expect more accuracy. All you need to do is come out and say it places teams with ecnl and mls in their names at near the top of the ranking when they are new and let it drop from there. This is perfectly good explanation. There is no need to get all defensive.
 
I'm not Mark. And you're not particularly savvy.

One tip - stop using "we" when nobody is agreeing with you.
Ok Mark. You still can’t explain how a team with that record is placed 4th in the “initial calculation”. Something is wrong with your algorithm. Maybe shouldn’t publish the data until you are in your 10th calculation.
 
Ok Mark. I am just a whistle blower. If the tournaments are using this app for the brackets, we expect more accuracy. All you need to do is come out and say it places teams with ecnl and mls in their names at near the top of the ranking when they are new and let it drop from there. This is perfectly good explanation. There is no need to get all defensive.
But it's false.
 
This is not true.

if you're a better team in a crappy league to advance in ranking you'll need to beat opponents by 8+ goals a game. Although I haven't seen it (because Im not looking that closely) I bet there's situations where a really good team will play a terrible team and win 1-0 but go down in ranking.

What ends up happening is good teams in bad leagues are forced to blow out opponents. When this happens opponent parents think you're being a bully and players start cheap shoting / fouling to get back at you the only way they can.

Nobody wants to blow out opponents.
This doesn't match my experience at all. When the score gets uneven, heads go down. Even if teams take their foot of the gas, they often start scoring more because they're more relaxed. Or they put the defenders up top and you know they want to keep scoring. Better teams in crappy leagues routinely do blow out their opponents. I haven't looked at the RL leagues lately, but when my son was playing there you'd often see 10 or even 14-0 games. These are less common in NL or MLS because the levels are flatter. These blowouts tend to inflate the top RL teams overall rankings. It's also why you see ECNL teams higher up the rankings than head-to-head matches with MLS teams would predict.

The only way to know for sure would be to do a wider analysis of predicted vs. actual outcomes in head-to-head matches between leagues, but that's what my intuition of the data suggests.
 
Ok Mark. I am just a whistle blower. If the tournaments are using this app for the brackets, we expect more accuracy. All you need to do is come out and say it places teams with ecnl and mls in their names at near the top of the ranking when they are new and let it drop from there. This is perfectly good explanation. There is no need to get all defensive.
Search for ECNL among younger teams, then scroll down. You’ll find plenty of teams down at the bottom. 2014 have a “pre ecnl“ at 2065. 2012 have an ECNL at 1388, and an “ECNL RL” down at 2117.

That doesn’t look like the algorithm gives any weight at all to a text search for “ECNL”

The simpler explanation is that parents do a search for ECNL teams, and some of them give it a lot of weight. This helps ecnl teams recruit better players, at a cost of some roster churn at U13 (and beyond).
 
Back
Top