CalSouth National Cup Question (use of ECNL players)

bababooey said:
You bring up an intriguing question about a limit on club pass players. So I went to the NC rulebook (http://media.calsouth.com/data/Down.../2017/2017CSNationalCupV17100816.pdf?rev=114F).

  1. So check out Team Eligibility (section 3.4 - Roster Continuity). It states that the roster must maintain a minimum of 9 players from the league play roster (SCDSL for this team) to the NC roster.
  2. Now check out section 3.7 (Roster Size). It states that an 03 team can have a tournament roster of 22 total players, but only 18 per game roster.
  3. Lastly, go to section 3.16.2 (Club Pass). It states that any NC team can club pass players as long as the roster meets the minimum 9 player "continuity of roster" rule.

So, with respects to the Arsenal team in question here, RB had the ability to add 10 ECNL players to this team via the Club Pass rule highlighted above. This assumes that the 12 players from the Fall roster are all still playing on this team and listed on the NC roster.

I am no fan of RB, but I don't believe he has violated any NC rule here.
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Thanks Buey, I guess a club will do whatever it takes. My only question is if they team had 9 players from the fall team to play Pres Cup. During the fall & playoffs, there were games they struggled to field enough players or even played short. I know 1 or 2 03's already left.
 
bababooey said:
You bring up an intriguing question about a limit on club pass players. So I went to the State Cup rulebook (http://media.calsouth.com/data/Down...ts/2017/2017CSStateCupV171008162.pdf?rev=F013).

  1. So check out Team Eligibility (section 3.4 - Roster Continuity). It states that the roster must maintain a minimum of 9 players from the league play roster (SCDSL for this team) to the SC roster.
  2. Now check out section 3.6 (Club Pass). It states that any SC team can club pass players as long as the roster meets the minimum 9 player "continuity of roster" rule. It does not appear there is a limit to the amount of players that can be club passed.
  3. Section 3.7 (Roster Size) states that 03 teams can have up to 22 players rostered (tournament rostered), but only 18 players per game roster.

So, with respects to the Arsenal team in question here, RB had the ability to add 10 ECNL players to this team via the Club Pass rule highlighted above. This assumes that the 12 players from the Fall roster are all still playing on this team and listed on the SC roster.

I am no fan of RB, but I don't believe he has violated any SC rule here.
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I still cannot figure out how to edit my first post, so I guess I have to reply to my prior post. ***EDITED to change to the specifics of the State Cup rulebook versus the National Cup rulebook I used earlier.
 
Keeper pops said:
Thanks Buey, I guess a club will do whatever it takes. My only question is if they team had 9 players from the fall team to play Pres Cup. During the fall & playoffs, there were games they struggled to field enough players or even played short. I know 1 or 2 03's already left.
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KP: with only 12 players listed on the SCDSL fall roster, it would seem that this team may have struggled with enough players for multiple games. Maybe this was RB's plan all along.......struggle in the Fall season to gain entry into State Cup versus National Cup (this was a flight 1 team for Fall). Then get into State Cup and use ECNL players to try and run the table. I hope I am wrong, but RB plays to win ALWAYS!

Unless this is the flight 2 team? Anyway, I am done. My head hurts.
 
bababooey said:
KP: with only 12 players listed on the SCDSL fall roster, it would seem that this team may have struggled with enough players for multiple games. Maybe this was RB's plan all along.......struggle in the Fall season to gain entry into State Cup versus National Cup (this was a flight 1 team for Fall). Then get into State Cup and use ECNL players to try and run the table. I hope I am wrong, but RB plays to win ALWAYS!

Unless this is the flight 2 team? Anyway, I am done. My head hurts.
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This was the flight one team and they petitioned to play state and was allowed to based on their league record. I'm pretty sure he lost some players as we played them in the Manchester Cup and there was already turmoil on the field and sidelines. Regardless of ringers or not, they played a clean, tactical game which I for one appreciated. Our girls competed for 60 minutes and in turn learned a lot from the game. That's how I prefer my DD to develop so goal accomplished for a C team in my opinion!
 
Keeper pops said:
Thanks Buey, I guess a club will do whatever it takes. My only question is if they team had 9 players from the fall team to play Pres Cup. During the fall & playoffs, there were games they struggled to field enough players or even played short. I know 1 or 2 03's already left.
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Are there parents on this team on the forum? I would like to know how they feel about always having to rely on the ECNL girls to fill the roster to win games. If that was my daughter's team, I would be looking for a new team or just sit out for State Cup. I'm not sure what lesson the girls are learning with RB's strategy.
 
SocalSoccerMom said:
Are there parents on this team on the forum? I would like to know how they feel about always having to rely on the ECNL girls to fill the roster to win games. If that was my daughter's team, I would be looking for a new team or just sit out for State Cup. I'm not sure what lesson the girls are learning with RB's strategy.
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So you find 1-3 ECNL Players used ok but not 7? What's the cutoff.
I think any usage of them for any reason on a C team in a major state tournament that could have resulted in knocking off another team inappropriate.
Again the inherent inequality is horrible. All you need is 1-2 ECNL players to make a difference against C team players- sorry but it's true. And the two they used are stars
 
Striker17 said:
So you find 1-3 ECNL Players used ok but not 7? What's the cutoff.
I think any usage of them for any reason on a C team in a major state tournament that could have resulted in knocking off another team inappropriate.
Again the inherent inequality is horrible. All you need is 1-2 ECNL players to make a difference against C team players- sorry but it's true. And the two they used are stars
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Very unfortunate and why we need state/national cup to coincide with ECNL events so there is no opportunity to do that.
 
MakeAPlay said:
Very unfortunate and why we need state/national cup to coincide with ECNL events so there is no opportunity to do that.
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Or we need a coach to respect his players and families.
I don't buy any other reason. We have unlimited substitutions and aren't playing FIFA. The use of powerhouses was not required and again to me shows that a lot of people don't get it. One MT or AS is equal to about 3 of a lesser player in terms of vision, tactical, skill.
 
Ps-
I only care because I feel for the families who lost 7-0 to this team. It's not fair play.
No knock on team, families, ECNL players. That was all the coach and coach who let his ECNL players go
 
Striker17 said:
Or we need a coach to respect his players and families.
I don't buy any other reason. We have unlimited substitutions and aren't playing FIFA. The use of powerhouses was not required and again to me shows that a lot of people don't get it. One MT or AS is equal to about 3 of a lesser player in terms of vision, tactical, skill.
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I agree. I don't know who MT is but I get your point and love your passion for fairness. You clearly aren't a lawyer as you have a soul.
 
MakeAPlay said:
I agree. I don't know who MT is but I get your point and love your passion for fairness. You clearly aren't a lawyer as you have a soul.
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Those two are solid players and could certainly change a game,... If in fact they were player passed.
 
Striker17 said:
So you find 1-3 ECNL Players used ok but not 7? What's the cutoff.
I think any usage of them for any reason on a C team in a major state tournament that could have resulted in knocking off another team inappropriate.
Again the inherent inequality is horrible. All you need is 1-2 ECNL players to make a difference against C team players- sorry but it's true. And the two they used are stars
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No, I'm not okay with any teams bringing ECNL players to State Cup. I am more comfortable at National Cup level as some non-ECNL clubs can take on ECNL any day. Evidently a parent of Surf C team didn't seem to mind. I wanted to hear from RB's parents. It was extremely unfair for that team to lose 0-5/0-7 to these teams because not only they took a loss, it put them out of wild card chance with the goal differential
 
The real sad part about Arsenal EGSL allegedly using 7 ECNL players in President's Cup is that they were a Flight 1 team. They should have played National Cup. According to the rules, they had to petition to play President's because of their poor record in league (won less than 20%) to make the playing field level. I'm guessing their appeal to play did not include a material piece of information that they are going to use 7 ECNL players. It is utter BS to appeal to appeal to play at a lower level than you should and then bring in 7 ECNL players. This is very clearly against the spirit of the drop down rule and should really be reported to Cal South. With 7 ECNL players, Arsenal EGSL could have won National Cup. If you are going to use 7 ECNL players at least play National Cup where Flight 1 teams belong instead of appealing to play lesser competition. Did Arsenal also add in players from Texas for President's Cup or did they think the ECNL players were good enough? Classy moves like this are likely another reason why Arsenal is not getting an Academy Team. Really sad for the teams they destroyed. I hope the coach is very proud of the victory. The Area 1F AYSO open tournament is still taking applications. Maybe he can bring the entire ECNL team for that.
 
Justice said:
The real sad part about Arsenal EGSL allegedly using 7 ECNL players in President's Cup is that they were a Flight 1 team. They should have played National Cup. According to the rules, they had to petition to play President's because of their poor record in league (won less than 20%) to make the playing field level. I'm guessing their appeal to play did not include a material piece of information that they are going to use 7 ECNL players. It is utter BS to appeal to appeal to play at a lower level than you should and then bring in 7 ECNL players. This is very clearly against the spirit of the drop down rule and should really be reported to Cal South. With 7 ECNL players, Arsenal EGSL could have won National Cup. If you are going to use 7 ECNL players at least play National Cup where Flight 1 teams belong instead of appealing to play lesser competition. Did Arsenal also add in players from Texas for President's Cup or did they think the ECNL players were good enough? Classy moves like this are likely another reason why Arsenal is not getting an Academy Team. Really sad for the teams they destroyed. I hope the coach is very proud of the victory. The Area 1F AYSO open tournament is still taking applications. Maybe he can bring the entire ECNL team for that.
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Coaches and club will do what they need/want to do to win games. At the end of the day, it is up to the parents to allow them to make these decisions; I would have a hard time supporting this and explain to my player why it is good to bring in heavy hitters to help the team win.
 
SocalSoccerMom said:
Coaches and club will do what they need/want to do to win games. At the end of the day, it is up to the parents to allow them to make these decisions; I would have a hard time supporting this and explain to my player why it is good to bring in heavy hitters to help the team win.
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It's easy to explain to your dd. "I am sorry I brought you to this team. Apparently the coach doesn't know how to teach you to play soccer. He only knows how to recruit and yell at you when you don't "send it" to the star striker. I thought he was a good trainer because his team's have winning records." Next year we will go to Legends and they will have a good coach to teach you the game." Follow that up with a Yogurtland visit.
 
So, Arse EGSL has one win...which came in league when they had ECNL players show up. They petition to play down in State Cup because of their record. If Cal South had known that they would roster ECNL players, would they have granted the application to play down? Maybe no rules broken, sleazy at best. They also had ECNL players show up for their first Playoff game...whacked a good flight 2 team 7-0...next playoff game...no ECNL players...no win.
 
They played all but one or two games during league with only 8 or 9 players on the pitch, he pulled girls from this team to play on his 02 EGSL teams. Every game there was a different set of players that would show up to play. It was more like a "pickup game". Why Presidents Cup and not National Cup because there are no rules that mandate clubs/coaches to do the right thing. I feel bad for the teams that worked hard all season to possibly put a stab at winning Presidents Cup and played tier 2 because that is the ability of their team. As forum folks talk I have no skin in this but do feel bad for these tier 2 teams that deserved a chance at winning. National Cup would have been fair game but Presidents. Really? Pick on someone your own size.
 
gobruins said:
So, Arse EGSL has one win...which came in league when they had ECNL players show up. They petition to play down in State Cup because of their record. If Cal South had known that they would roster ECNL players, would they have granted the application to play down? Maybe no rules broken, sleazy at best. They also had ECNL players show up for their first Playoff game...whacked a good flight 2 team 7-0...next playoff game...no ECNL players...no win.
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It's like sitting at the kids table so you can steal their dessert.
 
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