A year in and I'm beginning to hate club soccer....

[MWN]

@GraceT,

I applaud your desire to have the boy play the field, especially at age 9. My advice to the parents of any kid that wants to play keeper is make sure the kid plays the field for half the games until U12 or U13 for boys. The exception being if the father is 6'4" and mom is 5'9, then there is a good chance the kid will be at least 6'2" to 6'3, so foregoing the field may not ultimately hurt. My son is 14 years old, 6'2", plays up on the 2002 team, and was the only freshman to be called up to the varsity team for the playoff run in HS. I didn't let him to be a full time keeper until U12.

I would rather have him play with 2002/2001's on a defensively weak team than a strong 2003 team because he will get 4x more shots (often 20 per game) and those shots (harder and faster) will develop him quicker than sitting between the sticks on a team that receives 3-5 SOGs per game.

But ... as you see, coaches have tremendous pressure to field competitive/winning teams (because parents demand it) and kids are their ammo to be spent as needed.

 

[Grace T.]

@GraceT,

I applaud your desire to have the boy play the field, especially at age 9. My advice to the parents of any kid that wants to play keeper is make sure the kid plays the field for half the games until U12 or U13 for boys. The exception being if the father is 6'4" and mom is 5'9, then there is a good chance the kid will be at least 6'2" to 6'3, so foregoing the field may not ultimately hurt. My son is 14 years old, 6'2", plays up on the 2002 team, and was the only freshman to be called up to the varsity team for the playoff run in HS. I didn't let him to be a full time keeper until U12.

I would rather have him play with 2002/2001's on a defensively weak team than a strong 2003 team because he will get 4x more shots (often 20 per game) and those shots (harder and faster) will develop him quicker than sitting between the sticks on a team that receives 3-5 SOGs per game.

But ... as you see, coaches have tremendous pressure to field competitive/winning teams (because parents demand it) and kids are their ammo to be spent as needed.

Yeah, but as MT has said, getting a coach to do that is really hard. If the keeper is already playing 1/2 the games full time in goal (or is playing 1/2 a game in goal), getting them field time is hard because the coach will already feel the need to give the benchers some time (who have had none) v. the keeper (who may have already had a lot, just not on the field). I would be happy with just some field time and a team that also teaches to play the backpass so his feet get some work. But in an ideal world, yes absolutely.

Which is why I don't understand why his old club treated him the way they did. O.k....let's assume even arguendo the new keeper has tons of potential and more than my son has long term....if he's your golden boy, don't you want to give him some time on the field for the development of his footskills and sticks around long term? Don't you want for the sake of his confidence to take him out at the half when the team is losing 4-0 and the outcome isn't at issue? Don't you want someone else ready to go given how often kids at this age get sick or injured and shouldn't you celebrate that you have the great luxury of having 2 instead of trying to pit them against each other? The only explanation that we can think of is that when the kid was recruited he was promised a starring role, they didn't anticipate the jump my son was able to make in commanding the backpass and blocking with futsal and his trainer over the winter, and he embarassed them (or the other keeper's family) so they didn't want to give him time in goal afterwards and risk it happening again. My son said after the first game (where he only let in the PK) he got a vibe they were angry with him...I didn't see that but they certainly weren't congratulating him on a great outing even when he was fouled hard with a kick to the groin and no foul was called but played on.

 

[Grace T.]

Yeah, but as MT has said, getting a coach to do that is really hard. If the keeper is already playing 1/2 the games full time in goal (or is playing 1/2 a game in goal), getting them field time is hard because the coach will already feel the need to give the benchers some time (who have had none) v. the keeper (who may have already had a lot, just not on the field). I would be happy with just some field time and a team that also teaches to play the backpass so his feet get some work. But in an ideal world, yes absolutely.

Which is why I don't understand why his old club treated him the way they did. O.k....let's assume even arguendo the new keeper has tons of potential and more than my son has long term....if he's your golden boy, don't you want to give him some time on the field for the development of his footskills and sticks around long term? Don't you want for the sake of his confidence to take him out at the half when the team is losing 4-0 and the outcome isn't at issue? Don't you want someone else ready to go given how often kids at this age get sick or injured and shouldn't you celebrate that you have the great luxury of having 2 instead of trying to pit them against each other? The only explanation that we can think of is that when the kid was recruited he was promised a starring role, they didn't anticipate the jump my son was able to make in commanding the backpass and blocking with futsal and his trainer over the winter, and he embarassed them (or the other keeper's family) so they didn't want to give him time in goal afterwards and risk it happening again. My son said after the first game (where he only let in the PK) he got a vibe they were angry with him...I didn't see that but they certainly weren't congratulating him on a great outing even when he was fouled hard with a kick to the groin and no foul was called but played on.

p.s. the other thing that's just not cool is they have a no cut policy for returning players on the younger end....if you pay your fee on time, you've earned your spot on the roster...but that doesn't guarantee that they'll give you play time....the email I got was basically we know you've been looking at our competitor, you'll probably be happier elsewhere considering your son is very demanding about his playtime (he didn't make demands...he asked his coach why he wasn't put in and was told the other kid forgot his field shirt which turned out not to be true), you can stay but we don't intend to give him playtime, if you can't find a team at this late date he's welcome to keep coming to GK practice for a fee but here's your deposit back.

 

[MWN]

@GraceT,

You could respond in a very pleasant manner to the effect that at the U10 level, the guidance from US Soccer is "Every player should play a minimum of 50% of the time in each game." (see, Slide 41, https://www.ussoccer.com/~/media/files/coaches/player-dev-initiatives/pdi-aug2017-eng.pdf?la=en).

What disturbs me is these coaches/program doesn't understand their development responsibilities.

Good riddance. Sometimes adults don't adult.

 

[El Clasico]

p.s. the other thing that's just not cool is they have a no cut policy for returning players on the younger end....if you pay your fee on time, you've earned your spot on the roster...but that doesn't guarantee that they'll give you play time....the email I got was basically we know you've been looking at our competitor, you'll probably be happier elsewhere considering your son is very demanding about his playtime (he didn't make demands...he asked his coach why he wasn't put in and was told the other kid forgot his field shirt which turned out not to be true), you can stay but we don't intend to give him playtime, if you can't find a team at this late date he's welcome to keep coming to GK practice for a fee but here's your deposit back.

Grace, you are an enigma to me. On the one hand, I have seen posts from you over the last year that seem insightful but, mostly, you have been a bid defender of all that is the world of club soccer. I bet if one were to go back and read all of your 375 posts, you will find that the overwhelming majority of them are in support of USSF, Club Soccer, Club (professional) Coaches, Leagues, etc. Club good, AYSO bad, etc., etc. Now, only 12 months in and you assail the whole system. Argument after argument (or debate after debate) defending the status quo with posters that have been on these boards for years and have been through a lot of hell, along with the good times and experiences with their kids. You seem like a bright lady which makes it incredible that you have been so naïve. Now that the you have gotten your turn getting whacked upside the head with the club soccer 2x4, you might now want to give some of them the benefit of the doubt once in a while. I like to tell people that club soccer mirrors real life. You will meet a lot of good people along the way but when you write a check to someone running a business, you have to believe that they are going to run their business in THEIR best interest.

Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way....but are you sure it is your son who is getting cut from these teams?

 

[smellycleats]

p.s. the other thing that's just not cool is they have a no cut policy for returning players on the younger end....if you pay your fee on time, you've earned your spot on the roster...but that doesn't guarantee that they'll give you play time....the email I got was basically we know you've been looking at our competitor, you'll probably be happier elsewhere considering your son is very demanding about his playtime (he didn't make demands...he asked his coach why he wasn't put in and was told the other kid forgot his field shirt which turned out not to be true), you can stay but we don't intend to give him playtime, if you can't find a team at this late date he's welcome to keep coming to GK practice for a fee but here's your deposit back.

In the setting of all of these thoughtful posts, this is an oversimplification but...the club does what’s best for the club, always. Youve got to do what’s best for your kid. We earned this the hard way and it was not an easy lesson

 

[socalkdg]

Totally relate.

The problem with moving off the line v. not is for a GK it involves trading reaction time to shot angle. Usually, it is very good for a keeper to reduce the shot angle (if there is no possibility of leaving open a cross or easy pass to an onside second striking player)...futsal players know this and do it all the time. The problem with moving off the edge slightly is it doesn't reduce the shot angle dramatically but does cost a few microseconds by way of reaction time...studies have now been conducted that show it isn't a great tradeoff particularly if the ball is shot down low. But that wasn't the issue. The issue was the coach showed him the old technique of taking a step forward before the dive...that's worse than just trying to get slightly off the line because it costs you almost a full second to get there...but it's the way I was taught back in the day myself ^\__/^

My daughter has had good success with penalty kicks, above 50% save percentage. My advice to her has and will continue to be go with her instincts. Guess or don’t guess go left go right. Just do what she feels is right at that moment.

She gave up a goal last weekend. Partial breakaway with a defender trying to get to the girl shooting. I asked her about it today and wanted to know if she could have done something different. She said she should have listened to herself and stayed on her line, but a coach yelled to come out. She did but was caught in no mans land and failed. She felt at the time the defender might get there and staying ready for the shot from the 18 was the play at the moment. Too often kids get second guessed or pigeoned holed into doing something that isn’t in there best interest. Let the kids use their instincts in games, right or wrong. They build up knowledge based on the experience they get.

 

[Grace T.]

Grace, you are an enigma to me. On the one hand, I have seen posts from you over the last year that seem insightful but, mostly, you have been a bid defender of all that is the world of club soccer. I bet if one were to go back and read all of your 375 posts, you will find that the overwhelming majority of them are in support of USSF, Club Soccer, Club (professional) Coaches, Leagues, etc. Club good, AYSO bad, etc., etc. Now, only 12 months in and you assail the whole system. Argument after argument (or debate after debate) defending the status quo with posters that have been on these boards for years and have been through a lot of hell, along with the good times and experiences with their kids. You seem like a bright lady which makes it incredible that you have been so naïve. Now that the you have gotten your turn getting whacked upside the head with the club soccer 2x4, you might now want to give some of them the benefit of the doubt once in a while. I like to tell people that club soccer mirrors real life. You will meet a lot of good people along the way but when you write a check to someone running a business, you have to believe that they are going to run their business in THEIR best interest.

Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way....but are you sure it is your son who is getting cut from these teams?

Oh I'm sure I had something to do with it....I made mistakes along the way and I could have also meekly taken what they offered and never complained...I'm not so immodest to say I was perfect. But most telling is only 2 kids from the old team are still there, one is the son of the DOC, and the other is the son of the manager (who is terrified [I mean that literally without exaggeration] of challenging the coaches on anything). I wouldn't even say ours was the most "dramatic" departure: there were 2 others that were bigger doozies. Sure, most of the departures are chasing the wins, but it's more than just that from having talked to them (they mock me, with justifications, for thinking I was friends with the coaches). As to the rest: the mega club was all my kid (it was a doozie of a scrimmage meltdown, the only saving grace of it all that we figured out what was going on with him)...the overrostered club I had nothing to do with it (my father handled-- his connection)....if anything contributed to it was the timing pressure (practices conflicted so we couldn't be in 2 places at once).

If you read my past post, you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. I'm realistic about the way it works...we have the system we have in place because of the goals we have set as a society...we can't change the system unless we tinker with the goals and we must make choices (soccer can be competitive, developmental or accessable to all/affordable....pick 2). But I've been critical of club soccer as well: the build out line rollout, the learning through directed play system, the level of knowledge among coaches about goalkeeping, and parents chasing the wins. I've had some great things to say about AYSO (their coaches instruction is just better, and for the younger I like the guaranteed playtime), and some not so great (a lot of the volunteers in the core program just don't cut it). But you are right...up until this experience I thought it our experience great and couldn't comprehend why so many (really so many) people were jaded about it....when it fell apart it fell apart real quick....lesson learned.

 

[Grace T.]

Too often kids get second guessed or pigeoned holed into doing something that isn’t in there best interest. Let the kids use their instincts in games, right or wrong. They build up knowledge based on the experience they get.

One of the wisest goalkeeping comments I've read on this forum. Kudos. .

p.s. it's a bit simple to say there's a no man's land on the one v one. There are 6 zones: the line; coming off the line slightly (still have enough time to set and time to react, but have the benefit of a smaller angle); no man's zone one (where the benefits of a smaller angle are smaller than the loss of reaction time...but this is a very small zone); K-stop/body block zone (futsal land...futsal players are in this zone all the time and the keeper is only vulnerable to a chip); no man's zone two (where the keeper is no longer on his feet and in the process of diving to the ball...vulnerable to a toe pick or rollover...also a very small zone); smoother.

 

[timbuck]

How many PKs does a 2009 player face in a year? Maybe 5? (Not assuming finals of a tournament where they would face 5 in 1 game).
I’m certainly not a gk expert, but if I’m coaching a 2009 goal keeper, we aren’t spending a ton of time on PK strategy.

I saw a study somewhere that said something along the lines of:
GKs guess right about 50% of the time during a pk. And of those that they guess right- they only save about 30% of those.
So if a GK faces 20 PKs, they guess right on 10 of them. And of those 10, they only save 3.
I think the conclusion was they have just as much of a chance of stopping 3 out of 20 PKs by just standing in the middle of the net and hoping the shooter kicks it right at them or misses wide or over the net.
I’ll search around a bit to see if I can find the link. (It’s also important to note that I believe that 73.6% of all statistics are made up).

 

[Grace T.]

How many PKs does a 2009 player face in a year? Maybe 5? (Not assuming finals of a tournament where they would face 5 in 1 game).
I’m certainly not a gk expert, but if I’m coaching a 2009 goal keeper, we aren’t spending a ton of time on PK strategy.

I saw a study somewhere that said something along the lines of:
GKs guess right about 50% of the time during a pk. And of those that they guess right- they only save about 30% of those.
So if a GK faces 20 PKs, they guess right on 10 of them. And of those 10, they only save 3.
I think the conclusion was they have just as much of a chance of stopping 3 out of 20 PKs by just standing in the middle of the net and hoping the shooter kicks it right at them or misses wide or over the net.
I’ll search around a bit to see if I can find the link. (It’s also important to note that I believe that 73.6% of all statistics are made up).

Agree. I wouldn't spend to much time on PK strategy either per se. PK drills though are good for timing...a goalkeeper needs to fall quickly if they see the ball going to ground, but stay up and take a breadth if it's in the air....they need to learn that the closer the ball is to 90 degrees, the less time it takes. But keepers are also asked to train a lot of things they don't often use (like the tip over bar).

 

[MyDaughtersAKeeper]

Y
Which is why I don't understand why his old club treated him the way they did. O.k....let's assume even arguendo the new keeper has tons of potential and more than my son has long term....if he's your golden boy, don't you want to give him some time on the field for the development of his footskills and sticks around long term(1)? Don't you want for the sake of his confidence to take him out at the half when the team is losing 4-0 and the outcome isn't at issue?(2) Don't you want someone else ready to go given how often kids at this age get sick or injured and shouldn't you celebrate that you have the great luxury of having 2 instead of trying to pit them against each other? (3) The only explanation that we can think of is that when the kid was recruited he was promised a starring role, they didn't anticipate the jump my son was able to make in commanding the backpass and blocking with futsal and his trainer over the winter, and he embarassed them (or the other keeper's family) so they didn't want to give him time in goal afterwards and risk it happening again (4) . My son said after the first game (where he only let in the PK) he got a vibe they were angry with him...I didn't see that but they certainly weren't congratulating him on a great outing even when he was fouled hard with a kick to the groin and no foul was called but played on.

Why did they treat him the way they did? I have come to the conclusion it is a combination of not knowing how to develop keepers (since most DOCs were field players), and not caring (what percentage depends on the club).

(1) They don't want him on the field to "develop" field skills. Do that on your own time (not really kidding). (2) They do not understand the pressure that keepers face. I tell my daughter that the pressure will either crush her into dust or create diamond - nothing in between. A good goalie has to deal with all the goals, they relive them. It takes time and maturity. (3) Not really, they can just throw a field player in net. An athletic kid can do a passable job. Is that the same as being a trained keeper? No, but I can't tell you how many times I have had a parent tell me about their kid being able to play in net; without consistent training mind you. My kid can play forward to, and make all the easy plays too. The position is a grind physically and mentally and I don't think most people really get it. (4) Clubs will ALWAYS do what is in their best interest - it is a business. It was a sad day when I realized that the club really doesn't care about my kid (call me naive). Most clubs have plenty of willing customers in line behind you. And most kids are replaceable (save the 1% of unicorns out there).

The only people that really understand are other keepers, other keeper parents and keeper trainers. That is about it. If you are around club soccer long enough you will have a story like this (unfortunately). Good luck to you and your kid.

 

[Mystery Train]

Why did they treat him the way they did? I have come to the conclusion it is a combination of not knowing how to develop keepers (since most DOCs were field players), and not caring (what percentage depends on the club).

(1) They don't want him on the field to "develop" field skills. Do that on your own time (not really kidding). (2) They do not understand the pressure that keepers face. I tell my daughter that the pressure will either crush her into dust or create diamond - nothing in between. A good goalie has to deal with all the goals, they relive them. It takes time and maturity. (3) Not really, they can just throw a field player in net. An athletic kid can do a passable job. Is that the same as being a trained keeper? No, but I can't tell you how many times I have had a parent tell me about their kid being able to play in net; without consistent training mind you. My kid can play forward to, and make all the easy plays too. The position is a grind physically and mentally and I don't think most people really get it. (4) Clubs will ALWAYS do what is in their best interest - it is a business. It was a sad day when I realized that the club really doesn't care about my kid (call me naive). Most clubs have plenty of willing customers in line behind you. And most kids are replaceable (save the 1% of unicorns out there).

The only people that really understand are other keepers, other keeper parents and keeper trainers. That is about it. If you are around club soccer long enough you will have a story like this (unfortunately). Good luck to you and your kid.

All of this ^^^^^^

x 1,000

 

[C.A.M.]

Were you showing up blindly to tryouts? Or did you know someone in advance? (Another player on the team. Or make contact with the coach prior to showing up).
You are 100% correct in not wanting your kid to be a full time keeper at this age. I wonder what would have happened if he tried out without a specific position being told to the coach.
I've found that there are lots of kids at 9/10 years old that want to be a keeper, but a year or 2 later - they don't want to play in the net any longer. So if he shows up to a tryout with a team that already has 2 keepers, there's a likely chance that at some point during the season, 1 of those 2 kids will only want to play on the field.
And if you are at a club with multiple teams in the same age group - There is a really good chance that one of the other teams will need a keeper at some point. Keepers can play 2 games per day during the Fall season. So if he's on the field for his 1st game, he could play in goal for another team for the 2nd game.

See as the parent of a field player and a keeper, I have no problem with a full time keeper. It is a position that has a different skill set that must be mastered.

As the original poster said, he improved the most when under fire and getting top notch training. You don't necessarily want to a keeper to have a great defense if you want development and growth. I know keepers who have only been on great teams and they tend to be the more fragile type who can't handle giving up goals.

A keeper has to be on a team he can make mistakes on. I'm talking bad punts, throws, blocks, passes out the back and stupid decisions on when to come out. Keepers need to make mistakes to be great and you simply don't make enough mistakes playing half the game.

Outside of the practices and games keepers should be doing all the same private workouts that field players do. Mine works with his older sister who is a center mid. They only do field player training at them. They should also have keeper privates. Why? Two completely different skill sets and mind states that they must master.

My keeper has been cut, overlooked and pushed away at several clubs and he is only 12. He has also been trained by some great keeper coaches and all but one has been a pro. His game is way beyond his age and he has beat every coach and team that has cut him. All this season too. I feel you when watching these little warriors go all out and be so easily discredited and thrown away. It is sickening. It doesn't end. Ever. Even as pros they are thrown away so fast. It's a brutal position that very few people are built to take on. KO matter how good they can do all the things a keeper must physically, if the player can't mentally handle making mistakes that cost games, taking blame even if the other defenders failed to do their job then find another position. Real talk. It's not the position for a soft soul.

When thinking of a keeper, throw out your field player thoughts because THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. They aren't sane, but they are very smart. ADHD you say? About right. Mine is the opposite. Absolute perfectionist with an intense and unnatural ability to focus, until he doesn't. What every good keeper has is an unparalleled willingness to put the body on the line to stop that round ball for no good reason at all.

Make sure he is having fun being a keeper through the ups and downs. Make sure he keeps his personality always. Good luck and welcome to the heaven and hell of club soccer.

 

[SoccerFan4Life]

Sad story but the fact is most parents have one of these stories. Club soccer is not made for everyone. In other countries they could care less what parents think and parents don't have a choice. The fact is parents created this club mess. We all want our kids to get better and we think club soccer is the only answer. We all think our kids are awesome and the fact is that most are not good enough.

I think that the tide will turn in a few years and club soccer will see a big drop in participation. Prices are getting close to the $3k per year and there's a point where parents are going to keep their kids in rec or signature level.

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the club soccer experience despite the struggles that my family has gone through.

If your child is average or below average, it's a cut throat type of roller coaster run and you may move clubs around often.