A good article about Coaches and Parents here in America
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This discussion started with an article about "joysticking". I think it was related mostly to parents, but I've read several other opinions in here that are even against "joysticking" coaches. I"m going to provide my experience and opinion and would like feedback to help me understand why so many are against active coaching/parenting when done with good fundamental knowledge.
My daughter plays club field soccer and futsal. Futsal delivers incredible development for instinct, touch, and precision, but this has to be applied to field play. Now, her futsal coach is extremely active during games with "joysticking", but she develops and grows tremendously from the active guidance. She will hear step on it, move, open up, pass, dribble, Scarlett is open, push up, etc. etc. My opinion is that she learns and develops much faster not just due to futsal, but to the "joysticking" that is teaching her constantly what to do.
Furthermore, we watch the older kids play with the same coach and active guidance "joysticking" who are absolutely amazing with their skills, possession, and control of the ball and game. They are amazing from the "joysticking" and constant repetition of "joysticking" to the point where the strategy and system is embedded in their heads. They also dominate in field soccer due to their incredible skills.
Her field soccer development is not nearly as active and her field soccer team does not have near the possession and control skill of her futsal team which even has younger players. I will also add that her futsal team does not have tons of rules and the need to order parents to not coach from the sideline. This whole winning is not what it's about and "joysticking" is bad philosophy just baffles the hell out of me.
Maybe every kid is different and some may be able to handle pressure and direction more than others? Maybe some of us parents don't want to spend 20 hours a week and thousands and thousands of dollars a year for love of the game she can get recreationally? Maybe kids need the constant direction on the field to help them advance and develop faster to compete against the best in their age which gives them advantage as they get older?
I know several kids that played club field soccer til they were 16 or 17 and quit, but not due to this burnout everyone mentions. They did the math and figured out that they were not going to play college soccer and were tired of spending so much time on soccer and not advancing. You reach an age where your time may be better spent academically or on something else. This is not burn out! This is reality and it hits others even younger.
Once they reach high school, they either make club teams or the high school team. NOT ALL THE GIRLS WILL! They do their math even earlier in age if they don't make either. Sure, the clubs have 3 maybe more flights now to gain more customers, but again, if the kids are spending 15 hours a week and not going to advance or graduate in the sport, reality sets in. THIS IS NOT BURNOUT! Now, for those that do burnout. They can and will regardless in many cases. Not everyone can handle the pressure and not everyone will make the team. These are just my opinions and life experiences I have noticed.
I think the parents need to see what works for their child and their child's psyche and passion is different than my childs. The bottom line is it gets more competitive and harder to keep advancing with the sport as they age. They have the psyche and skills to make it or they don't. It seems to me that some are more worried about burning out than advancing and building incredible skills that can be wasted with burning out. Let my child and her "joysticking" build something that is incredible enough to worry about getting burned out from first is my opinion. I'm not looking for a very expensive, time consuming hobby for my girl. I'd rather her do amazing in her education/work skills if she is not going to advance with the sport.
Also, isn't it weird how our kids are in school for an incredible amount of time, but noone worries about burning them out educationally??
My daughter plays club field soccer and futsal. Futsal delivers incredible development for instinct, touch, and precision, but this has to be applied to field play. Now, her futsal coach is extremely active during games with "joysticking", but she develops and grows tremendously from the active guidance. She will hear step on it, move, open up, pass, dribble, Scarlett is open, push up, etc. etc. My opinion is that she learns and develops much faster not just due to futsal, but to the "joysticking" that is teaching her constantly what to do.
Furthermore, we watch the older kids play with the same coach and active guidance "joysticking" who are absolutely amazing with their skills, possession, and control of the ball and game. They are amazing from the "joysticking" and constant repetition of "joysticking" to the point where the strategy and system is embedded in their heads. They also dominate in field soccer due to their incredible skills.
Her field soccer development is not nearly as active and her field soccer team does not have near the possession and control skill of her futsal team which even has younger players. I will also add that her futsal team does not have tons of rules and the need to order parents to not coach from the sideline. This whole winning is not what it's about and "joysticking" is bad philosophy just baffles the hell out of me.
Maybe every kid is different and some may be able to handle pressure and direction more than others? Maybe some of us parents don't want to spend 20 hours a week and thousands and thousands of dollars a year for love of the game she can get recreationally? Maybe kids need the constant direction on the field to help them advance and develop faster to compete against the best in their age which gives them advantage as they get older?
I know several kids that played club field soccer til they were 16 or 17 and quit, but not due to this burnout everyone mentions. They did the math and figured out that they were not going to play college soccer and were tired of spending so much time on soccer and not advancing. You reach an age where your time may be better spent academically or on something else. This is not burn out! This is reality and it hits others even younger.
Once they reach high school, they either make club teams or the high school team. NOT ALL THE GIRLS WILL! They do their math even earlier in age if they don't make either. Sure, the clubs have 3 maybe more flights now to gain more customers, but again, if the kids are spending 15 hours a week and not going to advance or graduate in the sport, reality sets in. THIS IS NOT BURNOUT! Now, for those that do burnout. They can and will regardless in many cases. Not everyone can handle the pressure and not everyone will make the team. These are just my opinions and life experiences I have noticed.
I think the parents need to see what works for their child and their child's psyche and passion is different than my childs. The bottom line is it gets more competitive and harder to keep advancing with the sport as they age. They have the psyche and skills to make it or they don't. It seems to me that some are more worried about burning out than advancing and building incredible skills that can be wasted with burning out. Let my child and her "joysticking" build something that is incredible enough to worry about getting burned out from first is my opinion. I'm not looking for a very expensive, time consuming hobby for my girl. I'd rather her do amazing in her education/work skills if she is not going to advance with the sport.
Also, isn't it weird how our kids are in school for an incredible amount of time, but noone worries about burning them out educationally??
SoccerJones
SILVER
because thats the american mentality...speed and athleticism always trumps technical skill especially at the younger levels.
Jason DiDomenico
BRONZE
You can't "teach" speed, size and athleticism. You CAN "teach" the technical skills. If two players are equal in ability, I think most would take the bigger/stronger player over the smaller/less physical player.
SoccerJones
SILVER
and that's why our men have never been a major player in the world. Do you know the dutch have two national teams as do many European countries? One is for kids who are have matured early and are super athletic and the second is for kids who haven't matured fully but exhibit great soccer IQ, technical and understand the game. The senior team is sprinkled with kids growing up in both systems.
How many times you see a guy who is as fast as Bolt yet has the touch of a rhinoceros? It's more common than you think, especially at the college level. I'll semi agree and say you can sometimes "teach" speed, size and athletic. As for the technical skills, once you hit a certain age, it's MUCH harder to learn. If a guy is superior in athleticism and equal in ability, then of course he/she will always win. Im specifically talking about the stud at 10-12 years old that scored 10 goals and is a goliath but fizzles out because he/she wasn't taught "properly" at the younger age...do you disagree that a lot of clubs value wins vs. development?
nobeastmode
BRONZE
You CAN "teach" the technical skills but you CAN'T teach a player to have great technical skills. You can only enhance what a player already naturally has. If a player is gifted with speed, size and athleticism its not a given that you can teach them the technical skills. Any coach or parent can spot a player with speed, size and athleticism its not difficult. Give me the the player with great touch along with a high IQ and fluidity. If this player is also fast and athletic.. great! If not they can still be an amazing player. Pirlo was never fast , but playing without hesitation effectively makes him so. Pirlo would have never made it if he was a kid living in the United States. I'll leave a quote from an amazing youth coach on why the US struggles to find these creative players.
"There are cultural reasons why this does not happen as much in the US. Clubs sell themselves to these 8 year old kids based on they just won the state cup or something like that, so there is SO much importance placed on results in these young formative years, this leads to conservative tactics and coaches joystick coaching every single detail, the kids room for creative expression is eliminated, pressure is only heightened from the parents, coupled with the "safer" tactics of the coach who does long ball to avoid mistakes and it's a culmination of all this that is not conducive to developing exciting, creative players who are free to express themselves."
Most Americans I know want to win and so does this guy. 1st place or nothing where I come from. He freaking tossed his 2nd place metal. That is a GOAT. Big, Strong, Fast, Mentally Tough as nails, skilled and technical and has one of the strongest kicks in the world. Messi is faster with the ball and it sticks to his cleat like no one I know so he gets a pass on the physical size challenge with the best.
If you want to be the best of da best then you better have it all and 99.5% of our kids DON'T have it all. I know a guy who goes on tour doing amazing things with a soccer ball. Kind of the like the Harlem Globetrotters. This soccer dude is a stud. I asked him why no pro and he said he wasn't quick enough or fast enough to play with da best. If you watched Stanford play, I saw girls who had it ALL just like Mike Trout. Just win baby!!!!
If you want to be the best of da best then you better have it all and 99.5% of our kids DON'T have it all. I know a guy who goes on tour doing amazing things with a soccer ball. Kind of the like the Harlem Globetrotters. This soccer dude is a stud. I asked him why no pro and he said he wasn't quick enough or fast enough to play with da best. If you watched Stanford play, I saw girls who had it ALL just like Mike Trout. Just win baby!!!!
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SoccerJones
SILVER
Stanford women are a good example of where the USNT needs to move towards...I was at the game and Stanford dominated the game from start to finish (maybe about the last 15 minutes of the first half UNC was on fire). Posessed, diagonal runs, play out the back...UNC showed little signs of possession, but is more traditional kick and play.
If Messi would have grown up in the USA, he would have easily been passed up for bigger, faster, and stronger players. Winning NOW doesn't always equate to winning later..kinda willing the battle but not the war.
If Messi, Ronaldo or Pele or any of the GOATs lived here none of them would be a GOAT at soccer. This place sucks to learn the game the right way. I've shared enough why that is true. Firstly, to be a GOAT in soccer you probably need to be poor. Not too many poor folks playing soccer at the "Elite" level here in DA States. The poor can't afford to play club soccer. Hell, I can't afford club soccer to be honest. The parents want to win here and winning trumps development. Winning to most is getting kid in great school. For a few others, it's winning the actual game and beating out others for a starting spot while others get cut. Find the winners and then develop them to be the best of the best. Not all are winners. BTW, I watched my first college cup on tv and I saw things differently but no need to argue about NCs play. I say US Soccer hire the coach at Stanford and put him in charge of WNT and YNT. He seems like a good guy. Let him pick his players and the rest of the kids can focus on getting into college. We also need someone on the Men's side to have 100% autonomy to hit the reset button and blow up the DA and try something else. Men suck at soccer and this development stuff is not working were surely not getting better. DA has everything to do with it too 100%. The girls are next i'm afraid.
$15,000 a year for high level Elite club soccer that goes on tour across the USA showing all to see the new girls in the developmental league. Fact didn't believe me that DA is that expensive. Unlimited resources (that means lots of cash in DA bank) is hard to compete with if you're check to check or poor in the USA. Listen to reason and then let's have some Hope for everyone to have equal access to the highest level of soccer and the YNT and WNT.
A couple things I consider in all this. First of all, The USWNT is pretty dominant. America is pretty top notch for women's global soccer, no?
Secondly, our best male athletes go towards higher paying, more popular American sports like football, basketball, baseball, and even hockey, no?
Thirdly, don't other countries play soccer, futsal, street soccer, etc. without coaches and such. Basically, they have a love of the game and play it on their own with or without organization. Soccer is not popular in America. This can change of course, but I don't fall for this aim for winning is killing the game here. We keep score for a reason and it's natural to want to win. Nothing wrong with that at all. Now, development and training are the time to experiment and make mistakes.
Everyone talking about making youth soccer more affordable reminds me of those who want to make health care more affordable. Someone has to pay for it, so what becomes more affordable for some, makes it more costly for others. The more we try to fix things, the more we make things worse imo. I mean our whole economic growth with debt and monetary policy in The U.S. basically makes all of our mandatory, domestic costs of living even more expensive due to the growth of liquidity and inflation. It does not show up on the cpi index, because we get cheap products made globally now, but if its made here, it's damn expensive. Any attempt to make it cheaper through govt. funding makes it more funded and thus more expensive.
I would love to see a club like soccer organization with decent coaching that focuses on basic fundamentals for the youth, but where the kids can play and learn to love the game without tryouts, traveling all over, and lots of expense. AYSO is not an option imo. It has to have some focus on keeping it competitive and trying to win is important not everything, but a goal. Good development and fundamentals lead to winning. Just some of my thoughts.
Secondly, our best male athletes go towards higher paying, more popular American sports like football, basketball, baseball, and even hockey, no?
Thirdly, don't other countries play soccer, futsal, street soccer, etc. without coaches and such. Basically, they have a love of the game and play it on their own with or without organization. Soccer is not popular in America. This can change of course, but I don't fall for this aim for winning is killing the game here. We keep score for a reason and it's natural to want to win. Nothing wrong with that at all. Now, development and training are the time to experiment and make mistakes.
Everyone talking about making youth soccer more affordable reminds me of those who want to make health care more affordable. Someone has to pay for it, so what becomes more affordable for some, makes it more costly for others. The more we try to fix things, the more we make things worse imo. I mean our whole economic growth with debt and monetary policy in The U.S. basically makes all of our mandatory, domestic costs of living even more expensive due to the growth of liquidity and inflation. It does not show up on the cpi index, because we get cheap products made globally now, but if its made here, it's damn expensive. Any attempt to make it cheaper through govt. funding makes it more funded and thus more expensive.
I would love to see a club like soccer organization with decent coaching that focuses on basic fundamentals for the youth, but where the kids can play and learn to love the game without tryouts, traveling all over, and lots of expense. AYSO is not an option imo. It has to have some focus on keeping it competitive and trying to win is important not everything, but a goal. Good development and fundamentals lead to winning. Just some of my thoughts.
SoccerJones
SILVER
First of all....
you make some good points. There are only a hand few of clubs in CA (don't know much about other states) that take a true interest in developing the whole play and will take them where they're at (good or poor) and do the best to make them better. of course everyone wants to win but at the youth level (U12-maybe younger-and under) it should be about, like you said, making it fun, falling in love with the game, and learning to be creative. The reason why other countries are more successful isn't because their number 1 sport, but there are less adults "training" them at younger ages when it's just picking up a ball and going to the par or playing on the street avoiding cars. Americans have this idea that training more is better instead of just training better. USA kids don't go out and play anymore and it's even more evident in affluent areas.
AS for your making it affordable comment...paying for one year of soccer at some clubs is more than a ENTIRE year of having affordable healthcare. What clubs are doing in club soccer (other sports too) is damn near highway robbery. 7-14k a year for soccer without guarantee that you'll get a scholarship or NT invite in the end? U12-U18 that's 42-84k for all those years. It's easy for some parents to write a check and those are the kids you see on the WNT, YNT's. Very rarely do you see kids from a low socio-economic place playing at that level due to not having access. Yes out teams are dominant (women's) but that's because they have had a 30-40 year advantage of having title IX on their side and people invested in their future. Many countries just started programs in the last 2 WC cycles. We will not continue to be as dominant as we are unless things change.
First of all....
you make some good points. There are only a hand few of clubs in CA (don't know much about other states) that take a true interest in developing the whole play and will take them where they're at (good or poor) and do the best to make them better. of course everyone wants to win but at the youth level (U12-maybe younger-and under) it should be about, like you said, making it fun, falling in love with the game, and learning to be creative. The reason why other countries are more successful isn't because their number 1 sport, but there are less adults "training" them at younger ages when it's just picking up a ball and going to the par or playing on the street avoiding cars. Americans have this idea that training more is better instead of just training better. USA kids don't go out and play anymore and it's even more evident in affluent areas.
AS for your making it affordable comment...paying for one year of soccer at some clubs is more than a ENTIRE year of having affordable healthcare. What clubs are doing in club soccer (other sports too) is damn near highway robbery. 7-14k a year for soccer without guarantee that you'll get a scholarship or NT invite in the end? U12-U18 that's 42-84k for all those years. It's easy for some parents to write a check and those are the kids you see on the WNT, YNT's. Very rarely do you see kids from a low socio-economic place playing at that level due to not having access. Yes out teams are dominant (women's) but that's because they have had a 30-40 year advantage of having title IX on their side and people invested in their future. Many countries just started programs in the last 2 WC cycles. We will not continue to be as dominant as we are unless things change.
I'll start with what I agree with. Soccer is expensive in America like everything else. We only spend about $2,400 a year or so for U-9 for our club, but this involves a lot of time and driving. You're referring to DA and ECNL club teams probably with your 7k or more. To be perfectly honest, I think the parent has to love watching them play as much as the kid wants to play for club to be desirable. It's a big commitment for a parent in time and money.
Now, it gets more expensive and this is the trap I worry about. People are so concerned about their kids burning out, but if they are not top of class, what are their odds of college soccer? My kid needs to show me she has something to worry about getting burned out from before I worry about this burn out. Also, I'm willing to bte that the goal of most parents is college scholarship not pros. Other countries have pro programs where the kids devote their what would be education time into pro academy time. Math is important here. How much do pro-women make in soccer? Probably less than doctors, lawyers, and/or engineers? That's the goal in America. The good paying job, so most of us parents push academics and college education more than soccer. Soccer plus good academics is what leads to success imo.
I think I'm trying to say that statistics show how good youth sports like soccer are for career success later and that is my #1 goal for my daughter. If my daughter happens to be blessed enough to be some future star (which I totally doubt!), I would wish she would use it to gain the high paying, secure job not so much pro soccer. Other countries do not have the prosperity that America has. The best option for success might very well be the pro soccer or something within soccer rather than the professional career that college soccer leads to??
Still, soccer is not a popular sport in America. You have to face that. Maybe it's gaining in popularity?? I don't know. Out of curiosity though, how would you lower the cost for teenage club soccer? Someone has to get paid to organize and build training programs. Noone is going to work for free. Club coaches usually have other jobs too. I mean I don't think anyone is cleaning up exactly. You're talking weekends, nights, and quite a bit of stress to boot for these clubs.
Throw in computers and electronic gadgets and kids are spending even less time playing sports, so it may take parental influence to keep them in soccer. America has challenges ahead, but like everything, it's up to the parent to motivate and encourage imo. The kids play soccer and the parents play the game. LOL! We shall see what happens, but I do agree that cheaper alternatives besides AYSO would be nice. Probably not going to happen due to liability, fields, and the usual red tape when money is involved.
In Germany, kids are not just running around playing pick up jungle ball soccer. They are getting top notch, pro training from 5 years old on.
Iceland, and all of Europe, same approach. Only credentialed coaches work with 5 year olds.
Here in the US, it’s volunteer moms and dads that have never played soccer themselves who are teaching the 5 year olds. For baseball, football and basketball, it’s always someone who has actually played the game, so they get good fundamental early instruction.
Over generations, we’ll get there but it’s gonna be a long road to catch up, even with growing numbers playing.
Disclaimer: I never played the game; just learning vicariously through my kid playing!
Iceland, and all of Europe, same approach. Only credentialed coaches work with 5 year olds.
Here in the US, it’s volunteer moms and dads that have never played soccer themselves who are teaching the 5 year olds. For baseball, football and basketball, it’s always someone who has actually played the game, so they get good fundamental early instruction.
Over generations, we’ll get there but it’s gonna be a long road to catch up, even with growing numbers playing.
Disclaimer: I never played the game; just learning vicariously through my kid playing!
Interesting! But is that pro-training donated or who pays the trainers? Don't they also have academies in Europe and elsewhere where teenagers focus 100% on soccer. In America, our teenagers still focus a lot on academics as well and, again, college is academic plus soccer. Isn't it possible that American young adults and upper teenagers are mixing their soccer training with academics more so than the rest of the world? I'm asking, because I don't know. I think it's possible Americans are more focused on using soccer and other sports for that matter for gaining college education rather than going pro especially considering the odds of going pro in most sports.
Yeah fair points about who pays the trainers...probably subsidized vis a vis higher taxes / better social safety net than we have here. But I don’t know that for sure!
Also correct and fair point about academies. They’re molding future pros. German universities have NO athletic programs, so once a young player embarks on the athletic pathway, academics go by the wayside. If someone doesn’t reach the Bundesliga pinnacle, they don’t have an education to fall back on...So that may be another significant difference between US and German soccer landscape.
Also correct and fair point about academies. They’re molding future pros. German universities have NO athletic programs, so once a young player embarks on the athletic pathway, academics go by the wayside. If someone doesn’t reach the Bundesliga pinnacle, they don’t have an education to fall back on...So that may be another significant difference between US and German soccer landscape.
Can not speak for Germany, but in France all players no matter what age are put into a data base and tracked. Their Federation keeps a tab on the youth development, movement, affiliation, etc.
SoccerJones
SILVER
Imagine this...a club coach (you pick your sport) comes to a low income city (by accident-play with me here) to try to start a program. he/she/they has great credential as do most of the coaches on his staff. Then, after running a few sessions he tells kids/families that it's gonna cost anywhere from 7k-10k depending on what program they decide to attend. By this time, word has spread of this new coach that's running these amazing technical/tactical sessions and is going to be the next great big thing...
Who's gonna pay that kind of money? it'll be the affluential people from the burbs. meanwhile there's a segment that's left out because they can't play the game INSIDE the game. In all seriousness...whats even more sad and this is coming top down is our national team. Out of the 12 spots for YNT's (boy and girls) there are 2 of 12 spots that are currently filled and it's been a while since any of them have been filled. The people making the decisions for soccer here in the USA have no idea what they're doing...blind leading deaf
Who's gonna pay that kind of money? it'll be the affluential people from the burbs. meanwhile there's a segment that's left out because they can't play the game INSIDE the game. In all seriousness...whats even more sad and this is coming top down is our national team. Out of the 12 spots for YNT's (boy and girls) there are 2 of 12 spots that are currently filled and it's been a while since any of them have been filled. The people making the decisions for soccer here in the USA have no idea what they're doing...blind leading deaf