AYSO UNITED

[Grace T.]

This is predictable but sad news in general. Years ago when my oldest started playing soccer, I have hopes that a single pyramid of youth soccer competition will be developed, just like everywhere else in the world. There was hope that US Soccer will see this is a problem to be solved. AYSO is an organization that already have good national network. Also US has public schools with fields (advantage that almost no other nations have). I guess in the end I have to admit this is never going to happen in US. Youth sports will continue to operate like any other businesses.
I think we should be thankful that AYSO still exist. This may eventually go away as well.

You might get the pyramid. In fact the boys side is more pyramidy now than it was even 5 years ago. It’s just not going to be what most people like (if it happens). On the boys side:
-no pro/rel
-a handful of mega national clubs including with vc funding and the academies control over thing.
-Locally 25 clubs divide up the barrios and prevent entry of any new comers.
- No real competition so fees continue to rise
-for the older mls academies at the top, mls1, mls2, ea. everything else goes away because of you can’t do letter league you can’t make a go of it. Ecnl folds.
-For the Youngers more options but the mega clubs are dominant and local clubs finish disappearing.
-ayso (which is struggling now as it is) just disappears. The Youngers have a rec option but it’s controlled by the mega clubs which keep pushing travel as young as it can go.
-participation numbers continue to decline because kids and parents feel if you can’t be on top of the pyramid why bother.

I said this back in the coast days…if you want to maximize participation, it looks like a pear not a pyramid.

 

[aong cangkol]

-participation numbers continue to decline because kids and parents feel if you can’t be on top of the pyramid why bother.

I said this back in the coast days…if you want to maximize participation, it looks like a pear not a pyramid.

Agree, participation will decline.
All these giant clubs are forgetting that they have these thousands of players from AYSO.

 

[Jamisfoes]

You might get the pyramid. In fact the boys side is more pyramidy now than it was even 5 years ago. It’s just not going to be what most people like (if it happens). On the boys side:
-no pro/rel
-a handful of mega national clubs including with vc funding and the academies control over thing.
-Locally 25 clubs divide up the barrios and prevent entry of any new comers.
- No real competition so fees continue to rise
-for the older mls academies at the top, mls1, mls2, ea. everything else goes away because of you can’t do letter league you can’t make a go of it. Ecnl folds.
-For the Youngers more options but the mega clubs are dominant and local clubs finish disappearing.
-ayso (which is struggling now as it is) just disappears. The Youngers have a rec option but it’s controlled by the mega clubs which keep pushing travel as young as it can go.
-participation numbers continue to decline because kids and parents feel if you can’t be on top of the pyramid why bother.

I said this back in the coast days…if you want to maximize participation, it looks like a pear not a pyramid.

Whenever you don’t have pro/rel, exclusivity is what concentrates talent. MLS next with its new MLS next2 now getting access to MLS next Flex is diluting that talent. MLS next is hurting its MLS next HD clubs by having this mls next 2 league. This cheapens the mls next badge.
Wealthy soccer parents will be looking at ECNL because it’s now the more exclusive league. So I would argue MLS next is going to fold not ECNL.

 

[Grace T.]

Whenever you don’t have pro/rel, exclusivity is what concentrates talent. MLS next with its new MLS next2 now getting access to MLS next Flex is diluting that talent. MLS next is hurting its MLS next HD clubs by having this mls next 2 league. This cheapens the mls next badge.
Wealthy soccer parents will be looking at ECNL because it’s now the more exclusive league. So I would argue MLS next is going to fold not ECNL.

No because of for the simple reason that you are forgetting that at U12 a lot of parents still have ridiculous notions that their little superstar is going to be the next pro. The route to that is through the pro academies. And the way to do that is to get on a MLSN club. Even if you are seeking to maximize going D1 recruiting, the route still goes through the academies. Whoever controls the academies wins.

In Socal, the boys side ECNL side has had a bit of a rough go of it. Part of that is luck: some clubs are notorious mismanaged, and ECNL has been very reluctant to expand beyond what I think is 10 clubs with vast areas including the downtown triangle being completely uncovered and others like the East Val and Ventura being undercovered. It's preserved the exclusivity but allowed the dysfunction to dominate. MLSN has had some dysfunctional clubs (see Laufa), but they've also got some real marquis programs among the pay to play clubs, and not just in SoCal but elsewhere. Nationally, ECNL dominates in regions where MLSN has a shallow presence (such as the Pacific Northwest) but it's been a mixed bag elsewhere where they've gone head to head: Texas a few years back some MLSN clubs rebelled and jumped ship to ECNL but in Florida it's been all MLS (perhaps because of the concentration of MLSN teams in Florida). As the number of academies grow out, however, MLSN is just going to have a natural advantage in recruiting the U13s and aggregating talent. The one hang up I see that hurts MLSN is the age split between first and second teams because it prevents them from leveraging some things.

 

[Jamisfoes]

No because of for the simple reason that you are forgetting that at U12 a lot of parents still have ridiculous notions that their little superstar is going to be the next pro. The route to that is through the pro academies. And the way to do that is to get on a MLSN club. Even if you are seeking to maximize going D1 recruiting, the route still goes through the academies. Whoever controls the academies wins.

In Socal, the boys side ECNL side has had a bit of a rough go of it. Part of that is luck: some clubs are notorious mismanaged, and ECNL has been very reluctant to expand beyond what I think is 10 clubs with vast areas including the downtown triangle being completely uncovered and others like the East Val and Ventura being undercovered. It's preserved the exclusivity but allowed the dysfunction to dominate. MLSN has had some dysfunctional clubs (see Laufa), but they've also got some real marquis programs among the pay to play clubs, and not just in SoCal but elsewhere. Nationally, ECNL dominates in regions where MLSN has a shallow presence (such as the Pacific Northwest) but it's been a mixed bag elsewhere where they've gone head to head: Texas a few years back some MLSN clubs rebelled and jumped ship to ECNL but in Florida it's been all MLS (perhaps because of the concentration of MLSN teams in Florida). As the number of academies grow out, however, MLSN is just going to have a natural advantage in recruiting the U13s and aggregating talent. The one hang up I see that hurts MLSN is the age split between first and second teams because it prevents them from leveraging some things.

I am not arguing about the 3 pro academies. They will draw talents just because they are free and of their association with pro teams. My point is regarding the mls next 2 expansion and this everyone gets on a mls next team approach is going to dilute talents. Clubs with mls next AD are calling themselves mls next clubs. This makes MLS next HD clubs harder to recruit talents. In addition, MLS next HD is staying birth year at least for this year. MLS AD is getting older kids and MLS HD is not.

MLS next has been around for 5 years. It’s time for the pendulum to swing again. This year feels like the start of that swing. If you don’t have pro/rel, you have to have exclusivity. No one is going to pay the money to play, make the drive to be in your league if your league lets just about anyone in.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

I understand your thinking. I just think it's completely wrong. Check back in 2 years to see how you did. The vast majority of kids on the boys side chasing top teams are promoting themselves from ECNL to MLS N. Nobody believes ECNL at the top level is more talented, more exclusive, or "better" in any way than MLS N at the top level. It's not close. It's why MLS N can make the "diluted" 2nd and 3rd tier leagues a successful draw on just name alone, even if it's not a likely path for most of the top talent.

 

[Jamisfoes]

I understand your thinking. I just think it's completely wrong. Check back in 2 years to see how you did. The vast majority of kids on the boys side chasing top teams are promoting themselves from ECNL to MLS N. Nobody believes ECNL at the top level is more talented, more exclusive, or "better" in any way than MLS N at the top level. It's not close. It's why MLS N can make the "diluted" 2nd and 3rd tier leagues a successful draw on just name alone, even if it's not a likely path for most of the top talent.

Toyota and Lexus decide to have a reorg. They are going to leverage the Lexus name. Lexus is going to use the new name Lexus HD and the Toyotas are going to be called Lexus AD.
I am in the market for a luxury car. I’m thinking, everyone is now driving a Lexus, I think I am going to get a Mercedes instead.

Soccer in this country is like purchasing a luxury item. When the name gets cheapened, people stop buying. Just ask your wife if she is still buying Coach bags.

 

[RandomSoccerFan]

Your analogy is off, your thinking is off, and your predictions are off. Check back in two years and see how you did. I will.

 

[Scrub It Kook]

As the number of academies grow out, however, MLSN is just going to have a natural advantage in recruiting the U13s and aggregating talent. The one hang up I see that hurts MLSN is the age split between first and second teams because it prevents them from leveraging some things.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out the next couple of years. Arguably, MLSN has the best of both worlds with first and second teams in different age splits. It allows later developers to stay in the MLSN system on the second tier team while seeing how the early developers shake out. A lot can change at 16-17 years old; some of the early developers drop down and some later developers move up. IF the clubs manage their talent properly of course.

I am not arguing about the 3 pro academies. They will draw talents just because they are free and of their association with pro teams. My point is regarding the mls next 2 expansion and this everyone gets on a mls next team approach is going to dilute talents. Clubs with mls next AD are calling themselves mls next clubs. This makes MLS next HD clubs harder to recruit talents. In addition, MLS next HD is staying birth year at least for this year. MLS AD is getting older kids and MLS HD is not.

MLS next has been around for 5 years. It’s time for the pendulum to swing again. This year feels like the start of that swing. If you don’t have pro/rel, you have to have exclusivity. No one is going to pay the money to play, make the drive to be in your league if your league lets just about anyone in.

I think those older players moving to AD may not be quite the level of HD. Otherwise they'd be on HD regardless of birthdate. I know a few 2013's playing MLSN HD up in the 2012 group. I also did not realize how much bio-banding was being used in MLSN and EA this past year with olders already playing down.

 

[Jamisfoes]

Your analogy is off, your thinking is off, and your predictions are off. Check back in two years and see how you did. I will.

The Lexus AD owners are thinking… why mortgage the house to buy that Lexus HD, I am already driving a “Lexus”… besides I still get to go to that annual Lexus Grand Prix where I can show case my skills to win the race.

Lexus HD also has this new policy that all four wheels need to get equal time on the road, even knowing one wheel is bad. This led to more blow outs. Now the three good wheels aren’t happy anymore.

 

[Grace T.]

The Lexus AD owners are thinking… why mortgage the house to buy that Lexus HD, I am already driving a “Lexus”… besides I still get to go to that annual Lexus Grand Prix where I can show case my skills to win the race.

Lexus HD also has this new policy that all four wheels need to get equal time on the road, even knowing one wheel is bad. This led to more blow outs. Now the three good wheels aren’t happy anymore.

Flawed analogy. This would only work is if Porsches are in short supply, everyone is trying to get a Porsche, but they take Porsche's mostly from the list of Lexus HD owners. Even in SoCal your argument would be better if the ECNL clubs weren't such a mess, but again its a national problem where there aren't just 3 academies, and the academy list will continue to grow as the second pro tier is built out over the coming decade. Finally, the MLSN dilution problem has almost always been there: Murrieta, Santa Barbara, Nomads struggled to keep up, even clubs which produced winners like Laufa couldn't sustain themselves, you've had problem clubs like Ventura, and it will take years for new clubs like Bulls and LASC to build out.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out the next couple of years. Arguably, MLSN has the best of both worlds with first and second teams in different age splits. It allows later developers to stay in the MLSN system on the second tier team while seeing how the early developers shake out. A lot can change at 16-17 years old; some of the early developers drop down and some later developers move up. IF the clubs manage their talent properly of course.

I think those older players moving to AD may not be quite the level of HD. Otherwise they'd be on HD regardless of birthdate. I know a few 2013's playing MLSN HD up in the 2012 group. I also did not realize how much bio-banding was being used in MLSN and EA this past year with olders already playing down.

Nobody in the second tier ever moves down. They throw a fit and go sit on the bench in the same team or to another team, especially if they have a relationship with the coach who protects them. Its why in high school some of these teams go so far as to carry a ridiculous amount of 30+ players with a chunk of those "reserve" players (including 3rd goalkeepers) who will be lucky to dress on a guest card every once in a while and sit on the bench. The entire point of the AD was to give those players some place to play but that's hard when you have the new age groupings split. Would be fixed if clubs were mandated to have a placement director who could mandate where teams had to put players, but that's just a pipe dream.

 

[Jamisfoes]

No because of for the simple reason that you are forgetting that at U12 a lot of parents still have ridiculous notions that their little superstar is going to be the next pro. The route to that is through the pro academies. And the way to do that is to get on a MLSN club. Even if you are seeking to maximize going D1 recruiting, the route still goes through the academies. Whoever controls the academies wins.

In Socal, the boys side ECNL side has had a bit of a rough go of it. Part of that is luck: some clubs are notorious mismanaged, and ECNL has been very reluctant to expand beyond what I think is 10 clubs with vast areas including the downtown triangle being completely uncovered and others like the East Val and Ventura being undercovered. It's preserved the exclusivity but allowed the dysfunction to dominate. MLSN has had some dysfunctional clubs (see Laufa), but they've also got some real marquis programs among the pay to play clubs, and not just in SoCal but elsewhere. Nationally, ECNL dominates in regions where MLSN has a shallow presence (such as the Pacific Northwest) but it's been a mixed bag elsewhere where they've gone head to head: Texas a few years back some MLSN clubs rebelled and jumped ship to ECNL but in Florida it's been all MLS (perhaps because of the concentration of MLSN teams in Florida). As the number of academies grow out, however, MLSN is just going to have a natural advantage in recruiting the U13s and aggregating talent. The one hang up I see that hurts MLSN is the age split between first and second teams because it prevents them from leveraging some things.

How many bad MLS next teams are already around the LA downtown area? I would argue it’s smart for ECNL to not have a team there. The talent is already severely diluted in that area.

 

[Grace T.]

How many bad MLS next teams are already around the LA downtown area? I would argue it’s smart for ECNL to not have a team there. The talent is already severely diluted in that area.

In the barrio triangle? There’s only 1: tfa. Downtown La Club has long complained on both the boys and girls side that they can’t get into higher letter league (because of the expense and field requirements) yet have built capable squads that can defeat ecrl, mls2 and ea teams. I recall there was even a sports illustrated article.

 

[Jamisfoes]

In the barrio triangle? There’s only 1: tfa. Downtown La Club has long complained on both the boys and girls side that they can’t get into higher letter league (because of the expense and field requirements) yet have built capable squads that can defeat ecrl, mls2 and ea teams. I recall there was even a sports illustrated article.

There really should be pro/rel. That’s the only way to develop competitive players and keep teams together. If we don’t have pro/rel, at least have exclusivity to concentrate and trap talents. Personally I think what mls next is doing further dilutes the talents and makes the already bad cannon fodders worse.

 

[Grace T.]

There really should be pro/rel. That’s the only way to develop competitive players and keep teams together. If we don’t have pro/rel, at least have exclusivity to concentrate and trap talents. Personally I think what mls next is doing further dilutes the talents and makes the already bad cannon fodders worse.

Sure I agree with the first part that it dilutes talent. The existence of ecnl on the boys side does too. I disagree it impacts parental choice: parents will buy the koolaid if it gets them the patch and placement in front of academy scouts. I disagree pro rel works: it causes coaches to take short cuts like playing boot ball or not playing bench players and pro rel only works in closed systems where the hiring club is required to pay you (if not play you) and players aren’t free to leave (can only be traded). Without those it just rewards coaches who can recruit.

 

[shankbone]

Looking at Socal League for Fall 2025 United Socal (They dropped the AYSO) put up 250ish teams across their 18-ish hubs

They also had/have teams in DPL for girls and EA2 for boys

For SOCAL
Flight 4 - 20 teams
Flight 3 - 95 teams
Flight 2 - 80 teams
Flight 1 - 48 teams
NPL - 6 teams

Will this new club retain that many teams? By shear volume that is a successful enterprise - the alphabet soup pyrmid might be elusive.

 

[Jamisfoes]

Sure I agree with the first part that it dilutes talent. The existence of ecnl on the boys side does too. I disagree it impacts parental choice: parents will buy the koolaid if it gets them the patch and placement in front of academy scouts. I disagree pro rel works: it causes coaches to take short cuts like playing boot ball or not playing bench players and pro rel only works in closed systems where the hiring club is required to pay you (if not play you) and players aren’t free to leave (can only be traded). Without those it just rewards coaches who can recruit.

I always thought it would be fun to play for a CSL team and experience the pro/rel pressure. If a player is truly special, they will find him. Soccer at the top level is a pretty small circle. Don’t need to play for a mls next team to get seen.

 

[Grace T.]

Looking at Socal League for Fall 2025 United Socal (They dropped the AYSO) put up 250ish teams across their 18-ish hubs

They also had/have teams in DPL for girls and EA2 for boys

For SOCAL
Flight 4 - 20 teams
Flight 3 - 95 teams
Flight 2 - 80 teams
Flight 1 - 48 teams
NPL - 6 teams

Will this new club retain that many teams? By shear volume that is a successful enterprise - the alphabet soup pyrmid might be elusive.

Doubt it. Some hubs are weak and being carried by ayso…others like are in trouble because mls2 and ea was plopped on their door step. With only ea2 that places them in trouble for recruiting olders which leaves only 2 strategies: consolidate, drop the ayso philosophy (their insta implies they’ll still respect it), go for higher letter league; or the ole strategy of partnering with a heavy hitting club for older and just focusing on recruiting Youngers (but eventually ayso will push back on the canabalization…they have to or they are gone).

I always thought it would be fun to play for a CSL team and experience the pro/rel pressure. If a player is truly special, they will find him. Soccer at the top level is a pretty small circle. Don’t need to play for a mls next team to get seen.

Top coaches were a nightmare. Breakout had to happen early or it was difficult to get escape velocity later (you lose your best players to better teams; have to start over). Much more diversity of clubs held higher ranks but you’d have to maybe drag one kid to antelope valley and another to San dimas in same family if you wanted to play higher level. Local clubs survived but unless you lived next to a top team for your age group you were sol. That’s why it only works if the players and teams are locked. Otherwise it’s not a meritocracy…it’s just who has early success recruiting.

 

[Jamisfoes]

Top coaches were a nightmare. Breakout had to happen early or it was difficult to get escape velocity later (you lose your best players to better teams; have to start over). Much more diversity of clubs held higher ranks but you’d have to maybe drag one kid to antelope valley and another to San dimas in same family if you wanted to play higher level. Local clubs survived but unless you lived next to a top team for your age group you were sol. That’s why it only works if the players and teams are locked. Otherwise it’s not a meritocracy…it’s just who has early success recruiting.

There are ways to keep starters loyal to you. But yes I agree, sucks for the bench in a pro/rel system. Welcome to the real world of soccer.

 

[Grace T.]

There are ways to keep starters loyal to you. But yes I agree, sucks for the bench in a pro/rel system. Welcome to the real world of soccer.

In the “real world” player are paid (even if they don’t play) and players can’t just up and leave if they don’t like it so that clubs can’t poach rival players. If that’s what you want to build, your terms are acceptable if you can find the money.

 

[D8958]

Looking at Socal League for Fall 2025 United Socal (They dropped the AYSO) put up 250ish teams across their 18-ish hubs

They also had/have teams in DPL for girls and EA2 for boys

For SOCAL
Flight 4 - 20 teams
Flight 3 - 95 teams
Flight 2 - 80 teams
Flight 1 - 48 teams
NPL - 6 teams

Will this new club retain that many teams? By shear volume that is a successful enterprise - the alphabet soup pyrmid might be elusive.

They took off the AYSO acronym a couple seasons ago. That isn't related to the recent developments.
United Socal entity will be gone entirely for the 26-27 season.

In East County, they are losing almost every single team.