One remedy to ridiculous scoring run ups would be to implement a mercy rule or a clock like football. At that point neither the attacking or defending team is learning anything (not even the gk who is too small or too inexperienced to even consider this a work out). Problem is the adults (coaches and refs) have a hard time justifying their payment with the parents (who feel they’ve driven out for nothing)
Sandbagging Fall League Teams
- Thread starter Rollonyoubears
- Start date
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
Norcal leagues for the youngers used to have a 7 goal mercy rule. Go ahead by 8, and lose a point in the standings. I always wondered what would happen if the goalie just said screw it, and kicked it in their own goal to penalize the winning team. Turns out that intentional own goals were written in to the rule as well, and unfortunately the winning team doesn't get penalized in that case. One of our teams was pretty dominant in the youngers, and the coach always had a code word to scream at the team so they would stop scoring and just pass it up to the corner and play with the ball, passing it forever - hopefully on their side of the field rather than ours.
But looking at the current 25/26 handbook, it sure appears like it is no longer present - so teams are free to score at will with no penalty. Not sure when that change was reverted. There still is a cap on goals when looking at tiebreakers, where being more than 6 goals ahead of the other team doesn't matter.
But looking at the current 25/26 handbook, it sure appears like it is no longer present - so teams are free to score at will with no penalty. Not sure when that change was reverted. There still is a cap on goals when looking at tiebreakers, where being more than 6 goals ahead of the other team doesn't matter.
I and several of the moms did including the manager. We were told by the (mostly) men engaging in this behavior to “stop getting [our] panties in a bunch” and that “this is club not rec sweetheart”
. Part of the behavior was driven by the feeling that coast had unfairly placed us in the bottom tier (where all teams start with pro rel) and it was a waste of time (despite the team then getting blown out in league cup once it got to face flight 2 teams). It didn’t help that our team was mostly white well off while the other team was Latino from the working class areaKiddo two years later is on the opposite side of the equation when his team barely scrapping by in league is forced to play due to a funeral that takes out 3 kids and another two injured with 9 players on a Latino team against a white team with the most obnoxious parents complete with zazuelas and noise crackers. That team they played against us was bad enough that with a full squad we could have actually taken them. Sports parents can be the worst
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Phoenix Soccer Dad
BRONZE
$60 / hour sounds high. Here in AZ refs get $30 for the small sided (u10 and younger games). Our state league pays $50 for the center in a U12 match, ARs get $25. Generally have to be there 30 minutes before the game. The higher level leagues (MLSNext / ECNL) pay more ... for U17+ the center gets $110, ARs get $70. Keep in mind those are 90 minute matches + 15 minute halftime.
Saturday & Sunday I have 3 games each, will make $400. Days will start at 8:30 and end close to 3. So $400 / 13 = $31 per hour. Sounds about right. More and more leagues / tournaments here are moving away from cash (ECNL still does, that's about it) so I question this notion of a significant portion being tax free. And doing this full time? Tough to do, even in a warm weather state where we play Labor Day - Memorial Day. Bulk of the games are on the weekends. Yes, there are other (adult) leagues during the week (plus high school) but I'd be surprised if most refs, even those that do a huge workload, are north of $20K / year. Maybe those that are doing a lot of NCAA games but even still. $100K?
If you're averaging $60 / game you would need 1,667 games to crack $100K. That's 32 a week if you could work year round. Seems wicked high. But then again, some of you all are seeing fights every 3 games.
Snort. The top goalkeeper coaches are charging $100/hour for privates and/or semiprivates. Top volley ball coaches are nearing the $200/hour range.
Fights? Adult Latino league at gols? Oh there hasn’t been a single night I haven’t seen a scuffle somewhere on the complex (bit of an exaggeration but not by much). Our ayso adult rec seems to have the same problem so they had to exact a very strict no mercy expulsion policy. My dads rec career in his 30s ended at one game where a bunch of doctors from differing Latin American nations brutalized each other after one doc went down with a broken leg and another after a torn acl (I was so happy when it was over….i hated having to hang out at those things). Adult rec games are the worse most out of control. Too much testosterone which I’m convinced is also the side line and coach problem.
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rainbow_unicorn
PREMIER
Nope, this is on the winning side. We're talking flight 3 and team is winning by 7 goals PER GAME on average. They need to move up.
I want to meet the ref who makes $60 per hour. I have one question for him/her? How do I sign up?
CR in solo games for SoCal League get $66 per game. That equates to about $60 per hour. The same CRs also can ref solo in adult leagues which pay upwards of $75 per game and those are exactly an hour long, 25 minute halves and 5 mins half time with 5 minutes down time. There are tons of adult league games available in each city that runs them. The 35+ games are the easiest as most of the guys are pretty respectful of younger refs. Some of those games pay at $90 per game. The other option would be to take a job at UCI or similar place and ref intramural games which pay well and dont require licensing or extensive knowledge of the game. This allows you to ref all the sports during the season and you learn as you ref. Generally always good mentors and staff monitoring the games. You are required to be a student at some of the schools.
Could it be possible that the team needs to move up and your team needs to move down?
SoCal League Refs that work youth games, make $66 per game when they ref solo. Almost all u10 and under games have only 1 ref. In my 4 years with the league i have only seen 1 game during league for these age groups have more than 1 ref. The flight also doesnt matter, from Pre-NPL to Flight 4, only 1 CR is designated per game and they make $66 per game. Most of the refs will do 8 to 12 games per weekend and then work the adult leagues through the week where they make more than $60 per game. The adult leagues are not cash where as SoCal soccer is cash.
In South OC the top coaches (soccer) with A or higher licenses are charging $250 or more per hour for privates. There is a group which are dual licensed under both US Soccer and UEFA that are charging even more.
Useful info thanks. Will pass it on. I note however that that’s not entry level. I further note you may have hit the nail on the problem with Youngers refs (some older refs or refs who didn’t get the qualification for letter league might be holding onto them because they are easier physically, well paid, and you with seniority can get them). New point you just highlighted.
Phoenix Soccer Dad
BRONZE
Yes, you can get that kind of money per game. Very different than making $100K / year. And 32 games a week, 52 weeks a year? Not at those rates. If you did club on the weekends, high school during the week, indoor in the off season ... still aren't going to get to those numbers. Game fees in indoor are way lower.
You really think the 17 year kid doing your U6 game is making that kind of money?
The # of youth soccer referees making $100K / year is zero. If the money was that great, why is every league / sport in the country facing severe ref shortages? Google "youth sports referee shortage" and you'll see multiple articles from many reputable sources.
Go on the Reddit soccer referee forum and search any of the threads comparing games fees across the country.
Supply and demand is undefeated.
I broke this down slightly above. However, as a full time ref in SoCal (south oc) given the number of games each week that you can ref you can break the 1667 games over the course of the year easily but like i said you are looking at it as a full time gig. That is not counting several adult leagues pay as much as $75 to 90 per game for a solo CR.
Phoenix Soccer Dad
BRONZE
Two different issues. Yes, private coaching is expensive. Doesn't have much to do with how much refs are getting paid.
And yes, # of fights in adult leagues are more than youth. The "1 in every 3-4 games" thing came from another thread discussing youth games.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
Since it's been brought up a few times, I just want to reiterate that this isn't science fiction. It's what actually happens, in U15B+ in Norcal, at the NPL and State Premier level. There was 1 kid on one of our teams who alone got into 3 different fights one season. In several instances, the fighting got to the point that both teams were given 2 red cards - yet somehow those red cards never got entered into the system by the refs so nobody actually got suspended (or any record of activity). This isn't shared as a point of pride - it's not a great look for any of the teams, the league, or the refs.
Not once did i mention this was for a 17 year kid. 95% of the ref in SoCal are geriatric 55+ year olds. Most of them do 20 to 25 games per week. between SoCal soccer league and adult league games. They are all reaching the or close to the 100k mark a year, I am not sure about Phoenix (sorry if my assumption is wrong) but to put 100k in to perspective, in South OC, Irvine for example $98,764 a year qualifies you for subsidized housing and puts your below the 80% AMI threshold. What you earn per game and what they pay is also very area dependent. When i say youth soccer referee, i am not referring to youths referees, but individuals refereeing youth soccer.
Just because a job pays well doesnt mean that there cant be a shortage. Driving a truck (UPS /FedEx) pays on avg 150k a year with 0 healthcare premiums and 7 weeks of paid vacation but there is still a shortage of truck drivers.
A good pro ref in MLS also can make upto 250k a year but you dont see that many people running to take up the job.
The point i simply made is you cannot say SoCal refs arent paid well. There just as many people wanting to do the job for whatever reason.
The numbers here belie that point. The relevant data point is not the geriatric 55+ holding onto u10 game without ars because of his seniority (you’ve seem to again uncovered a different problem with the littles…also probably why those refs don’t want ars at those games since it will reduce what they bring in), it’s getting a larger pool of qualified refs into the system (the young ref which you said this wasn’t for). That’s the problem for getting more refs. The ar is making a McDonald’s wage and has to fight the 55 year old with seniority for the u10 solo center game.
Economics work. Supply and demand. It’s hard work, you get yelled at, it’s defeating since most people aren’t very good at it for a long time, opportunity costs. If the price equilibrium point were higher, the supply of refs rises. First year Econ.
Chadthecoach
BRONZE
Here’s an idea: what if SoCal introduced a re-flight system after the first 3–4 games?
If a team in Flight 3 is blowing out every opponent, bump them up to Flight 2 within their geographical area (and maybe swap them with one of the bottom Flight 2 teams). Same goes in reverse — if a Flight 2 team is getting smashed every week, let them move down.
I get that, logistically, this could be messy. But imagine how much better the experience would be for players, coaches, and parents — tighter games, better competition, and less of these ridiculous scorelines. Maybe a little flexibility early in the season could go a long way toward balancing things out.
Because at the end of the day, as long as teams are free to pick their own flight, this is always going to happen. That’s why I’ve always been a fan of the old Coast Soccer League promotion/relegation system, especially in the early 2000s. Those were the glory days. You’d spend two or three years building a team, and when you earned that promotion to Flight 1 Gold, it meant something. And man, Coast also had it right with the League Cup competition. It was beautiful watching Silver or even Bronze teams go toe-to-toe with Gold or Silver Elite teams. It added excitement and a real sense of competition that’s missing today.
SoCal can do so much better.
If a team in Flight 3 is blowing out every opponent, bump them up to Flight 2 within their geographical area (and maybe swap them with one of the bottom Flight 2 teams). Same goes in reverse — if a Flight 2 team is getting smashed every week, let them move down.
I get that, logistically, this could be messy. But imagine how much better the experience would be for players, coaches, and parents — tighter games, better competition, and less of these ridiculous scorelines. Maybe a little flexibility early in the season could go a long way toward balancing things out.
Because at the end of the day, as long as teams are free to pick their own flight, this is always going to happen. That’s why I’ve always been a fan of the old Coast Soccer League promotion/relegation system, especially in the early 2000s. Those were the glory days. You’d spend two or three years building a team, and when you earned that promotion to Flight 1 Gold, it meant something. And man, Coast also had it right with the League Cup competition. It was beautiful watching Silver or even Bronze teams go toe-to-toe with Gold or Silver Elite teams. It added excitement and a real sense of competition that’s missing today.
SoCal can do so much better.
That ship sailed 20 years ago.
Big Clubs want closed leagues. This is because if they're in the closed league they make more money. Everyone working together evenly letting results define winners and losers allows smaller clubs to get ahead. If you ignore the smaller clubs players that want to play at high levels they need to come to you to play in the closed league.
That has it’s problems too:
-my sons ayso united team was forced to start in flight 3 and blew out the competition. Mitigated if you make the promotion shorter but you are still having 10-0 games
-the flight 2 team you force down would explode. It’s a death sentence which means the kids no longer have a place to play. He’s been there too
-there’s no earning anything here. There’s no meritocracy because the way a flight 3 team moves up to flight 1 is through recruitment esp after the earliest years when 1 kid makes a difference. It’s only a meritocracy if you install a dance with the one that brung you rule and you don’t allow kids to move without permission (or a physical move like cif).
-coaches at the Youngers encouraged to take short cuts/hold back players that are ready to move on.
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