Captured from FB today --
- Thread starter espola
- Start date
I've been thinking about how US Soccer could fix the current p2p system.
The way to address is instead of giving $$$ to US Soccer resources (recruiters, coachs, etc) just pay the top clubs 20k for each player that makes each USYNT.
Also instead of trying to make better teams than youth clubs just pay the top club team 100k for their entire team and take the coach as well starting at u14. The team would cobtinue to play in whatever league tournaments they're already involved in.
US Soccer thinks they can pick better players and coaches than the ones that are in the trenches proving it day in / out. Instead of working against the current p2p system. Work with the different youth clubs by sprinkling $$$ on the winners.
The way to address is instead of giving $$$ to US Soccer resources (recruiters, coachs, etc) just pay the top clubs 20k for each player that makes each USYNT.
Also instead of trying to make better teams than youth clubs just pay the top club team 100k for their entire team and take the coach as well starting at u14. The team would cobtinue to play in whatever league tournaments they're already involved in.
US Soccer thinks they can pick better players and coaches than the ones that are in the trenches proving it day in / out. Instead of working against the current p2p system. Work with the different youth clubs by sprinkling $$$ on the winners.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
Makes sense, aligning financial incentives more directly with what you are trying to achieve seems much more likely to succeed than what has been tried (and has generally failed) up to this point. First impression is that the $20K/player estimate is way low; the average schlub is into the club for much more already. It should be a $100K+ bonus per USWNT player. If they want it to be $1m/year, just offer it to the first 10 clubs that successfully provide players.
dk_b
GOLD
We have a talent identification problem that is way bigger than P2P. We are so spread out and unless we can properly scout near borders and barrios and playgrounds and community fields, we are dependent on a club system to concentrate players. In the sunday leagues, you have electric kids playing with dads and uncles and older brothers, getting the s*it kicked out of them and still keeping the ball, being creative and scoring or assisting over and over but because they are not part of the proper alphabet of soccer orgs, they won't get seen. And, even if they do, we have a vastness problem that would require taking that kid out of his community and putting him with the closest or best academy or developmental opportunity. In other large-population countries, populations tend to be more concentrated than here and talent can be spotted (though I am sure there are loads of potentially great players who are missed from every generation).
The entire system would not need to be remade IF we could better spot talent and then figure out a way to cultivate that talent (maybe build academies somewhere other than in wealthy communities). And I don't want to discriminate against the suburban phenom but his parents would likely be willing and able to move him around in a way that less resourced families could w/o full scholarships and total cultural/educational disruption.
(I have thought about this a lot over the years. There are amazing players in Richmond, CA but for them to conventionally develop, you'd need to get them to San Jose (Quakes Academy) or Dublin/Pleasanton (Ballistic) (just naming two) and that's a helluva trek. And if we are talking about elite, elite talent, that won't be high volume anywhere but you have to treat it as though the talent could be ANYWHERE. But the numbers of talented players - and the occasional elite elite players - are completely ignored by inadequate scouting and then knowing what to do when the kid is identified)
(I think the issue on the girls' side is different and would require another long post)
The entire system would not need to be remade IF we could better spot talent and then figure out a way to cultivate that talent (maybe build academies somewhere other than in wealthy communities). And I don't want to discriminate against the suburban phenom but his parents would likely be willing and able to move him around in a way that less resourced families could w/o full scholarships and total cultural/educational disruption.
(I have thought about this a lot over the years. There are amazing players in Richmond, CA but for them to conventionally develop, you'd need to get them to San Jose (Quakes Academy) or Dublin/Pleasanton (Ballistic) (just naming two) and that's a helluva trek. And if we are talking about elite, elite talent, that won't be high volume anywhere but you have to treat it as though the talent could be ANYWHERE. But the numbers of talented players - and the occasional elite elite players - are completely ignored by inadequate scouting and then knowing what to do when the kid is identified)
(I think the issue on the girls' side is different and would require another long post)
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
Don't take them to Ballistic. That's just cruel. 
You had me at "We have a talent identification problem that is way bigger than P2P".
aong cangkol
SILVER
Somewhat disagree on using this country size as an excuse for not talent. Yes, being able to identify talent. Yes, a "US Messi" in Alaska or Idaho may not have a chance but we have enough population in California, New York, Texas and Florida to generate a high level national team. Population from these 4 states are far larger than Netherland, Croatia, Portugal.
aong cangkol
SILVER
It may work, basically creating an artificial market environment for players like other countries. This is how clubs in South America and Europe make money, by selling their top young players (instead of extorting money from parents).
I know it's fashionable to just poo poo on US soccer every time USMNT has a bad result and usually people criticize (unfairly) Pay to Play, Youth Soccer Structure, MLS, US Soccer, etc.
But most of the criticism is either naive or just stupid. The stuff most people complain about are SYMPTOMS and not the SOURCE of lack of quality for USMNT.
The simple fact remains that soccer in US is just not that big or popular. In ALL the countries critics are comparing US to in terms of national team results on the world stage, soccer is BY FAR the most popular sport. What is it in the US? Is it like 8th?
1. NFL
2. NCAA Football
3. NBA
4. NCAA Basketball
5. MLB
6. High school football
7. NHL
8. MLS / Tennis / Golf / F1 ?
The fact that most people believe we should be world class in a sport we simply do not care enough about nationally is a bit puzzling.
It's like Brazil being upset they don't always compete for The Masters in golf or English being mad at lack of #1 draft picks in the NBA. None of that makes sense.
Yes, we as arrogant Americans (I'm squarely in this as a fellow arrogant American), think we should be great at everything and we are pretty damn good at a lot of things... but we aren't going to be great at ALL things and it sucks but we aren't that good at the world's most popular sport because... we just don't have enough kids play it and enough people watch it and enough people being obsessed about it.
You may say, we DO have a lot of kids play it and we DO have a lot of people watch it but no we don't... I travel to Europe for work/leisure a few times a year and we DO NOT have a soccer culture like Europe. And I have Argentinian and Brazilian immigrant friends and no, we do not compare to South America. And it's easy to see Mexican passion for it in SoCal.
If we had American football level obsession with soccer here in the US, I firmly believe we would be competing to win every tournament we enter on the world stage.
All of the solutions thrown out are ones designed for us to pretend we are soccer powerhouse BEFORE we are there. I.e. let's pay the manager more, let's make youth soccer free, etc.
But these things happen WHEN a nation is crazy about soccer. We can't pretend it and then expect people to find passion. Passion precedes "solutions". There are exceptions I know... SoCal is a hotbed for soccer.. Atlanta apparently supports their MLS team greatly... Seattle too.. But this country is so damn big. Those markets can't carry the entire country.
There's a coach on my kid's club who is British and I chitchat with him a lot about youth soccer in England. And in London alone, there are DOZEN or more fully funded academies. LA - US's biggest soccer market has 2. Most of the cities in US have ZERO fully funded academies. Basically for a country and population of our size, we need like 200 across every medium to large city.
US is 20x greater in geographical size vs Spain and has 30 fully funded MLS youth academies. Spain has how many? 20 La Liga, 20 La Liga 2, someone confirm if 3rd and 4th tiers also have fully funded academies or not...
I do believe promotion and relegation will help with more fully funded academies being formed. USL needs academies. Having the opportunity to go up to the top tier will allow for investments into youth academies in USL and tier 3 and 4... either to promote kids onto their senior teams or to sell players. We don't have that and I don't think we ever will. SD owner paid what was it $500,000,000 or something for franchise rights? We ain't ever getting relegation in a league where it takes half a bil just to have the right to start a club. Who in their right mind will agree to that?
Pay to play exists because we don't have 200 fully funded academies all over the US. Because soccer isn't that popular. We can artificially prop it up by giving 5x salaries across the board and bring world class players before they're 35 years old... And also have our most talented kids choose soccer instead of American football, NBA or MLB... but the contracts are gargantuan in those leagues (used to be an avid NBA fan... I can't believe role players are now getting $30m a year... to me, that's Jordan money)... I don't think MLS can compete...
But most of the criticism is either naive or just stupid. The stuff most people complain about are SYMPTOMS and not the SOURCE of lack of quality for USMNT.
The simple fact remains that soccer in US is just not that big or popular. In ALL the countries critics are comparing US to in terms of national team results on the world stage, soccer is BY FAR the most popular sport. What is it in the US? Is it like 8th?
1. NFL
2. NCAA Football
3. NBA
4. NCAA Basketball
5. MLB
6. High school football
7. NHL
8. MLS / Tennis / Golf / F1 ?
The fact that most people believe we should be world class in a sport we simply do not care enough about nationally is a bit puzzling.
It's like Brazil being upset they don't always compete for The Masters in golf or English being mad at lack of #1 draft picks in the NBA. None of that makes sense.
Yes, we as arrogant Americans (I'm squarely in this as a fellow arrogant American), think we should be great at everything and we are pretty damn good at a lot of things... but we aren't going to be great at ALL things and it sucks but we aren't that good at the world's most popular sport because... we just don't have enough kids play it and enough people watch it and enough people being obsessed about it.
You may say, we DO have a lot of kids play it and we DO have a lot of people watch it but no we don't... I travel to Europe for work/leisure a few times a year and we DO NOT have a soccer culture like Europe. And I have Argentinian and Brazilian immigrant friends and no, we do not compare to South America. And it's easy to see Mexican passion for it in SoCal.
If we had American football level obsession with soccer here in the US, I firmly believe we would be competing to win every tournament we enter on the world stage.
All of the solutions thrown out are ones designed for us to pretend we are soccer powerhouse BEFORE we are there. I.e. let's pay the manager more, let's make youth soccer free, etc.
But these things happen WHEN a nation is crazy about soccer. We can't pretend it and then expect people to find passion. Passion precedes "solutions". There are exceptions I know... SoCal is a hotbed for soccer.. Atlanta apparently supports their MLS team greatly... Seattle too.. But this country is so damn big. Those markets can't carry the entire country.
There's a coach on my kid's club who is British and I chitchat with him a lot about youth soccer in England. And in London alone, there are DOZEN or more fully funded academies. LA - US's biggest soccer market has 2. Most of the cities in US have ZERO fully funded academies. Basically for a country and population of our size, we need like 200 across every medium to large city.
US is 20x greater in geographical size vs Spain and has 30 fully funded MLS youth academies. Spain has how many? 20 La Liga, 20 La Liga 2, someone confirm if 3rd and 4th tiers also have fully funded academies or not...
I do believe promotion and relegation will help with more fully funded academies being formed. USL needs academies. Having the opportunity to go up to the top tier will allow for investments into youth academies in USL and tier 3 and 4... either to promote kids onto their senior teams or to sell players. We don't have that and I don't think we ever will. SD owner paid what was it $500,000,000 or something for franchise rights? We ain't ever getting relegation in a league where it takes half a bil just to have the right to start a club. Who in their right mind will agree to that?
Pay to play exists because we don't have 200 fully funded academies all over the US. Because soccer isn't that popular. We can artificially prop it up by giving 5x salaries across the board and bring world class players before they're 35 years old... And also have our most talented kids choose soccer instead of American football, NBA or MLB... but the contracts are gargantuan in those leagues (used to be an avid NBA fan... I can't believe role players are now getting $30m a year... to me, that's Jordan money)... I don't think MLS can compete...
This is why US Girls soccer is so much better than the mens. Girls cant play most of those sports listed so the athletes choose soccer. Normally the boys are not choosing soccer.
dk_b
GOLD
But we have to go to where those players are. I don’t disagree that the talent exists - a huge number of kids who play in soccer dominated communities. But we have to dedicate/deploy the scouts to those places. And I question whether we are doing that.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
Yes - I tend to agree with much of this, there isn't going to be an unstoppable upswing of interest/passion/money until the sport itself takes off in the US. It hasn't happened for decades, and there is no reason to believe that this is the year this changes, or 10 years from now. But let's take that as a given - with the existing level of money/interest/population etc., how can it be structured such that better outcomes are possible. I don't think it's fair to say that everything that was done up until now was on target. Many would say there were huge mistakes made, and right now there are a bunch of changes that should be made. It doesn't have to be about finding money/passion/etc., it's about repurposing that same money that's already there in a way that might be more effective.
But in terms of money/passion/interest changing over time, one only has to look at the WNBA this year to see what is possible. With the right combination of talent/luck/management/who knows, it has gone from something nobody thought about to something that is making people millions of dollars, and breaking ticketing/viewership/sponsorship records pretty much every week.
Noticer
SILVER
The US girls are "better" because until relatively recently, it's been taboo for girls to play soccer in other countries. The population of girls playing in the US isn't dramatically shrinking; girls in other countries are simply playing soccer now
Isn't the NWSL experiencing never seen before growth right now? Huge media deals, clubs are building their own stadiums, etc. Not sure if I buy the "nobody like soccer" comments anymore.
I was saying why US womens soccer is better than US mens soccer. Yes I agree with you that US women's soccer had been better than the World women's soccer because yes most countries did not allow their girls to play youth soccer. Given the access they have now at the youth level being so integrated with the mens and now womens professional clubs its going to be a very hard road for US womens soccer to keep up.
Karlton Athletic
SILVER ELITE
I'm not sure that's accurate.
By youth participation, soccer is 3rd behind Basketball and Baseball, per this site:
Youth Sports Facts: Participation Rates - Project Play
Project Play collects and distributes national participation rates for kids in youth sports each year.
projectplay.org
By league attendance, MLS is averaging 23,246 this year, which beats both the NBA and NHL.
MLS attendance up 12 percent: Which teams are up the most
Attendance at MLS matches is up 12% compared to data up to the same date in 2023, the league announced on Monday. Nearly 6.5 million fans have attended a total of 279 MLS matches in the first half of the regular season — nearly 700,000 more fans than the same date in 2023. The year-to-year...
www.nytimes.com
Obviously, the NBA and NHL play in smaller stadiums, but big MLS games, even without Messi, are starting to sell out big stadiums, matching NFL numbers.
As for TV audience, the Euros just averaged 3.6 million viewers for the quarter finals, which beats most Stanley Cup Finals over recent years (though this year was huge), but the Euros don't even feature American players. I suspect this Sunday's final may break a few non-World Cup records.
MLS fans are, on average, younger (39.6) than the NBA (41.9 years), NHL (43.8) and MLB (57 apparently!), meaning that the potential for growth is there. I grew up in England, and our run to the semi-finals of the 1990 World Cup was a turning point for soccer. Before that, football was just "sport", hampered by rampant hooliganism that kept families away. That World Cup run caught the money men's attention though, who then made the shift to "entertainment" and the eventual creation of The Premier League. That shift has certainly had its downsides, but no one can argue that it hasn't been a success.
Given all that, if, and it's a big if, the US can go deep in the next World Cup and capture the casual viewers, I think it could be the USA's own "Premier League" moment: all the pieces are in place as long as we don't screw it up.
RandomSoccerFan
PREMIER
I dunno. Poll a relative about whether they've heard of NWSL. Bonus points if they can name what sport it plays in. It can experience "never seen before growth" for a whole bunch of years before getting over the hump of widespread acceptance and large dollars.
I'm not sure that's accurate.
By youth participation, soccer is 3rd behind Basketball and Baseball, per this site:
Youth Sports Facts: Participation Rates - Project Play
Project Play collects and distributes national participation rates for kids in youth sports each year.
By league attendance, MLS is averaging 23,246 this year, which beats both the NBA and NHL.
MLS attendance up 12 percent: Which teams are up the most
Attendance at MLS matches is up 12% compared to data up to the same date in 2023, the league announced on Monday. Nearly 6.5 million fans have attended a total of 279 MLS matches in the first half of the regular season — nearly 700,000 more fans than the same date in 2023. The year-to-year...
Obviously, the NBA and NHL play in smaller stadiums, but big MLS games, even without Messi, are starting to sell out big stadiums, matching NFL numbers.
As for TV audience, the Euros just averaged 3.6 million viewers for the quarter finals, which beats most Stanley Cup Finals over recent years (though this year was huge), but the Euros don't even feature American players. I suspect this Sunday's final may break a few non-World Cup records.
MLS fans are, on average, younger (39.6) than the NBA (41.9 years), NHL (43.8) and MLB (57 apparently!), meaning that the potential for growth is there. I grew up in England, and our run to the semi-finals of the 1990 World Cup was a turning point for soccer. Before that, football was just "sport", hampered by rampant hooliganism that kept families away. That World Cup run caught the money men's attention though, who then made the shift to "entertainment" and the eventual creation of The Premier League. That shift has certainly had its downsides, but no one can argue that it hasn't been a success.
Given all that, if, and it's a big if, the US can go deep in the next World Cup and capture the casual viewers, I think it could be the USA's own "Premier League" moment: all the pieces are in place as long as we don't screw it up.
The hopium is strong.
It's just been predicted in the run-up to the World Cup for the past several decades. It was supposed to happen when Pele joined the Cosmos in the 70's. It was supposed to happen when Beckham came over. It is now supposed to happen because Messi came here. It might. Up until now it hasn't. (It being massive growth, public acceptance, parity with any of the other major sports in the US)I'm not sure that's accurate.
By youth participation, soccer is 3rd behind Basketball and Baseball, per this site:
Youth Sports Facts: Participation Rates - Project Play
Project Play collects and distributes national participation rates for kids in youth sports each year.
By league attendance, MLS is averaging 23,246 this year, which beats both the NBA and NHL.
MLS attendance up 12 percent: Which teams are up the most
Attendance at MLS matches is up 12% compared to data up to the same date in 2023, the league announced on Monday. Nearly 6.5 million fans have attended a total of 279 MLS matches in the first half of the regular season — nearly 700,000 more fans than the same date in 2023. The year-to-year...
I'm not talking about youth participation.
I'm talking about size and popularity of the league as a whole in the US. It's overall attendance and viewership which translates to more TV money which translates to higher salaries which translates to more global talent / youth athletes going into the sport/league.
NBA just signed a 11 year $76 billion deal. Apple's deal with MLS is $2.5 billion over 10 years. It's not comparable.
I know markets like LA Seattle Atlanta have been very good for local attendances. But viewership and national interest in MLS pale in comparison to the NBA. And obviously miniscule compared to the NFL or even college football.
Yep, I watch a lot of European soccer... But that's the thing. There is interest in global soccer / top leagues. Yea it'll help growth here just by having people be more interested in soccer in general... but it's not the same as watching MLS...
I do agree that the younger demographic of MLS fans or soccer fans in general in the US provides some hope. Maybe the new national team manager can do something... But we aren't going to get anyone we didn't know about in 2024 to suddenly show up and play world class level in 2026... This is what we've got. We'll get a favorable draw being a host nation... but that's all we got going for I think...
I think there is some truth in everyone's posts. I few thoughts I have (on the boys side):
1) I believe our talent identification problem isn't so much not finding the kids (we have more kids playing organized youth soccer than any other country). I believe the problem is that we choose the wrong kids, like choosing size over IQ. Until we understand as a country that soccer is mostly a decision making sport that won't change.
2) This is in part cultural, but clubs, coaches and parents don't develop, and actually inhibit in many cases, passion for the sport. I believe that to be great in soccer you need to play most of the year which requires significant love for the sport. Top level youth soccer is a grind for kids.
3) Because of issues noted in 1 and 2, our soccer coaching is shit, at least on the boys side
4) The sport options available to boys when they hit high school are a huge draw. You can play football in front of a HS crowd of a few hundred (thousands if Texas) or you can play soccer in front of few parents. Same for college, thousands for football or dozens for soccer even its the College Cup. Bonus is many high school and college sports don't require year-round training to the extent required by soccer.
5) The American priority is education. Going to college is not necessarily the best route for pro soccer. Even if you choose the college route you have 9 scholarships for soccer and 85 for football
1) I believe our talent identification problem isn't so much not finding the kids (we have more kids playing organized youth soccer than any other country). I believe the problem is that we choose the wrong kids, like choosing size over IQ. Until we understand as a country that soccer is mostly a decision making sport that won't change.
2) This is in part cultural, but clubs, coaches and parents don't develop, and actually inhibit in many cases, passion for the sport. I believe that to be great in soccer you need to play most of the year which requires significant love for the sport. Top level youth soccer is a grind for kids.
3) Because of issues noted in 1 and 2, our soccer coaching is shit, at least on the boys side
4) The sport options available to boys when they hit high school are a huge draw. You can play football in front of a HS crowd of a few hundred (thousands if Texas) or you can play soccer in front of few parents. Same for college, thousands for football or dozens for soccer even its the College Cup. Bonus is many high school and college sports don't require year-round training to the extent required by soccer.
5) The American priority is education. Going to college is not necessarily the best route for pro soccer. Even if you choose the college route you have 9 scholarships for soccer and 85 for football
Bummer. I can't imagine a player not running through a wall for this guy... creepy teeth and all.
www.si.com
Jurgen Klopp Turned Down Opportunity to Become USMNT Head Coach, per Report
The former Liverpool is seemingly out of the U.S. Soccer coaching stakes.
www.si.com
https://sports.yahoo.com/how-tiny-uruguay-became-a-soccer-giant-050027599.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
This could be done in LA county . Have local USL and MLS scouts.
ID players not club or team . Local leagues instead of traveling all over the place.
This could be done in LA county . Have local USL and MLS scouts.
ID players not club or team . Local leagues instead of traveling all over the place.