5 different type of leagues in Socal - WHY ?

[aong cangkol]

It's because soccer isn't popular in America. You might think: "what?! no way, youth soccer is so popular in America! especially SoCal!"

But when I talk to coaches/parents from Europe (London specifically), they mention how there are more than a dozen pro teams in London alone... and they all have academy teams... that's 12+ LAFC or Galaxy teams... They don't have to travel far to games...

Our country is so damn big. Talent too spread out. MLS academies want to play other MLS academies. It's just that we ONLY have a couple of them around.

One of my younger kids played SoCal flight 1 past couple of years. They're youngers so they aren't yet EA/ECNL/MLS Next age.
They won all their spring and fall league games, most of them pretty lopsided.
And they aren't the best team. They don't do that well in tournaments vs top teams from other regions or states.
It's just that in specific region SoCal puts them in, it's just really weak there.
So having a different league be it EA or Pre-ECNL or something helps in that. Other option would be to play up in the weak region but as youngers go to 9v9 and then to 11v11 playing up sometimes gets a bit difficult.

One thing I would agree is... of ALL the places in America where we can have the top teams play against each other locally, it'll be SoCal.
But it gets back to there only being 2 MLS teams so there's no organizing body to organize enough teams for games.
So it's left to private parties to create the higher competition so business people make up leagues... $$$ And talent gets divided among all the leagues....

I think actually if we lessen the league structure and have kids play more tournament based - where based on results can be seeded correctly throughout the tournament season - may be helpful. More meaningful games. More competitive.

I think you make a good point here. We think soccer is really popular because of AYSO but it is really not. For comparison, Greater London Area has about 9 million people and Greater LA area has 18 million people.
There are 7 division 1 (EPL) clubs in London and 3 division 2 (Championship) plus many more division 3,4,5 professional clubs.
Let's say LAFC and LAG academies are at the same level as Arsenal or West Ham academies (EPL clubs), then LA area can only support 2 academies while London can support 7. It would be difficult to have competitive elite level competition with only 3-4 teams. If we expand more than the top 4 teams, the level of competition would drop significantly.
If we look at Utah, Montana, Alabama, etc. the number would look worse. London teams only need to drive a few hours to find another group of big clubs in Liverpool or Manchester.
Having said that, 99% of ECNL players will not play pro, so why not make it more economical for families to compete locally. It is recreational anyway.

 

[watfly]

Also "rec league" - what does that mean - how many hours a week

I would bet that we may have only 6-8 teams per age group that actually train at max level - all this nonsense wording fools all of us !!! Tell me how many hours per week they practice and I tell you if its a "real" highest level team - because I did this in another sport at the max - and if you ain't doing practice before school in some form you ain't at the highest level.......

When you subtract out Laps, Lines and Lectures the actual soccer training is even less.

 

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

Let's say LAFC and LAG academies are at the same level as Arsenal or West Ham academies (EPL clubs)

Arsenal and West Ham called.

They're super offended right now being compared to MLS teams...

Having said that, 99% of ECNL players will not play pro, so why not make it more economical for families to compete locally. It is recreational anyway.

Yea this makes a lot of sense.

I think we Americans - and I'm super guilty of this - think we should be the best at everything. So we create these "elite" leagues and stuff so we can "compete" with the world.

We don't need a "national league". Have the kids play up if it's too easy. Have the girls play against the boys if that's needed. But we should be able to play competitive games locally - or at least regionally (within driving distance) for tournaments.

The MLS youth teams can play other MLS youth teams. We need however MORE MLS teams... 30 teams or whatever for country our size is not enough... so there's not enough MLS teams to play in the youth ranks without traveling far...
Most of them just sign foreign players overseas anyway instead of bringing up a youth kid onto their 1st team so I don't know if it's even worth it to keep academies around to be honest...

 

[asianautica]

I think you make a good point here. We think soccer is really popular because of AYSO but it is really not. For comparison, Greater London Area has about 9 million people and Greater LA area has 18 million people.
There are 7 division 1 (EPL) clubs in London and 3 division 2 (Championship) plus many more division 3,4,5 professional clubs.
Let's say LAFC and LAG academies are at the same level as Arsenal or West Ham academies (EPL clubs), then LA area can only support 2 academies while London can support 7. It would be difficult to have competitive elite level competition with only 3-4 teams. If we expand more than the top 4 teams, the level of competition would drop significantly.
If we look at Utah, Montana, Alabama, etc. the number would look worse. London teams only need to drive a few hours to find another group of big clubs in Liverpool or Manchester.
Having said that, 99% of ECNL players will not play pro, so why not make it more economical for families to compete locally. It is recreational anyway.

You don't need a league with 30-50 teams. As I showed, just San Diego alone, we can put up a league with extremely competitive 15-20 teams that are at similar levels. They might not play at the MLS/EPL level, but that doesn't mean they're not good. Also, you don't need to have MLS academy teams to be great. Especially in the younger age group. San Diego Surf and Strikers in Irvine is quite competitive against true MLS academies. They are also feeding groups for MLS clubs to poach from.

Secondly, if you're playing in MLS Next in San Diego, why would you have to go to Vegas or AZ to play against weaker teams when there stronger ECNL teams (Surf/SDSC/Rebels) a few miles away? Especially if you're at the bottom of the MLS Next bracket. Same goes for the ECNL side. Similar stories can be said for Irvine where there's Beach/Slammers on ECNL side and Strikers on the MLS Next side. Exact same story for LA and LAUFA/LA Surf and LAFC SoCal/Pats/Breakers. It's the exact same story IMHO. SoCal has so much talent that you can create a league of 14-16 very competitive teams and the parents won't have to drive more than 30 minutes to a game.

As a parent, where you son plays for a MLS Next team in San Diego, would you rather drive 15 minutes to play against Surf/SDSC or 6+ hours to play against Vegas Heats?

 

[Jamisfoes]

You don't need a league with 30-50 teams. As I showed, just San Diego alone, we can put up a league with extremely competitive 15-20 teams that are at similar levels. They might not play at the MLS/EPL level, but that doesn't mean they're not good. Also, you don't need to have MLS academy teams to be great. Especially in the younger age group. San Diego Surf and Strikers in Irvine is quite competitive against true MLS academies. They are also feeding groups for MLS clubs to poach from.

Secondly, if you're playing in MLS Next in San Diego, why would you have to go to Vegas or AZ to play against weaker teams when there stronger ECNL teams (Surf/SDSC/Rebels) a few miles away? Especially if you're at the bottom of the MLS Next bracket. Same goes for the ECNL side. Similar stories can be said for Irvine where there's Beach/Slammers on ECNL side and Strikers on the MLS Next side. Exact same story for LA and LAUFA/LA Surf and LAFC SoCal/Pats/Breakers. It's the exact same story IMHO. SoCal has so much talent that you can create a league of 14-16 very competitive teams and the parents won't have to drive more than 30 minutes to a game.

As a parent, where you son plays for a MLS Next team in San Diego, would you rather drive 15 minutes to play against Surf/SDSC or 6+ hours to play against Vegas Heats?

We already have a league like this. It’s called SoCal. Why do you need MLS next and ECNL? Just have kids play SoCal all the way through.

 

[asianautica]

We already have a league like this. It’s called SoCal. Why do you need MLS next and ECNL? Just have kids play SoCal all the way through.

That's exactly my point, you don't need MLS Next or ECNL. If all the clubs would put all their teams in SoCal then that'll be it. But they don't, so SoCal does not offer the same competition level as MLS Next, EA, ECNL, ECRL.

 

[Grace T.]

That's exactly my point, you don't need MLS Next or ECNL. If all the clubs would put all their teams in SoCal then that'll be it. But they don't, so SoCal does not offer the same competition level as MLS Next, EA, ECNL, ECRL.

You can’t get rid of mls next because the academies need cannon fodder to practice given the distances between academies, and a uniform place to poach from.

 

[Carlsbad7]

You can’t get rid of mls next because the academies need cannon fodder to practice given the distances between academies, and a uniform place to poach from.

This is 100% true and now that MLS Next is paying kickbacks to youth clubs that pro players came from its going to be hard to unseat MLS Next.

 

[asianautica]

You can’t get rid of mls next because the academies need cannon fodder to practice given the distances between academies, and a uniform place to poach from.

Again, that's fine too. Whether you call it SoCal or MLS Next or whatever, there needs to only be 1 elite/academy league. We don't need MLS Next, EA, ECNL, ECRL, and NPL. If they all just be part of MLS Next 1 & 2nd team, then most parents in SoCal wouldn't have to drive more than 30 minutes to watch and fun and competitive match.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Again, that's fine too. Whether you call it SoCal or MLS Next or whatever, there needs to only be 1 elite/academy league. We don't need MLS Next, EA, ECNL, ECRL, and NPL. If they all just be part of MLS Next 1 & 2nd team, then most parents in SoCal wouldn't have to drive more than 30 minutes to watch and fun and competitive match.

Totally makes sense. Unfortunately will never happen.

Unfortunately there's too much money to be made running a national league, calling yourself elite, and calling your winners that master Champions of the universe.

What causes all the problems is College sports. In other countries the end goal is playing soccer professionally. In America there's two end goals playing soccer professionally and playing soccer in college. College can even split into multiple levels of goals (D1, D2, D3) and "other reasons" like just getting admitted to certain schools. The distortion that college sports forces onto the market enables all the diffferent leagues and clubs to exist.

 

[Grace T.]

Again, that's fine too. Whether you call it SoCal or MLS Next or whatever, there needs to only be 1 elite/academy league. We don't need MLS Next, EA, ECNL, ECRL, and NPL. If they all just be part of MLS Next 1 & 2nd team, then most parents in SoCal wouldn't have to drive more than 30 minutes to watch and fun and competitive match.

The reason why the academies think they need to be separate is so that they (and not Surf or Blues or Albion) has control of the agenda and because the academies are spread out nationally it means it needs to be coordinate across the various states (because the end goal is for the first stringers at the academy to play each other). It's the reason why we ultimately rejiggered our age alignments (to accord with Fifa instead of college). It's also why ultimately the no high school rule (because of different weather patterns across the country high school occurs in different times, and the academies need people to scrimmage against year round). And they won't just play locally because with the exception of 1 or 2 teams per year the competition just isn't there for the first string to get a full range of practice.

The reason why our system is a mess is because it's got these three competing goals. On the one hand, it's trying to create pros. On the other, it's trying to appease parents who just want to win trophies. And as Carlsbad correctly points out, it's trying to create college players.

 

[asianautica]

I totally agree with you both. It's more of me wishing how it should be, instead of how I think it will be. However, at the end of the day, parents have the power too. We get to choose where our money goes. If we feed the beast and willing to drive to Vegas or AZ only to lose 0-5, then that's on us.

 

[asianautica]

Also, I don't think that MLS academies need to create a league just so they have cannon fodder to practice against. I'm 100% sure if they reach out to any top clubs and set up a weekly scrimmage, everyone will gladly accept, even clubs in ECNL? Who's going to turn down a chance to scrimmage against LAFC and Galaxy? They could have great competition multiple times a weekend for their players if they want to. MLS Next already have 2 different leagues w/in themselves already, where MLS academies play between each other.

 

[watfly]

I totally agree with you both. It's more of me wishing how it should be, instead of how I think it will be. However, at the end of the day, parents have the power too. We get to choose where our money goes. If we feed the beast and willing to drive to Vegas or AZ only to lose 0-5, then that's on us.

Parents are suckers for any team or league that claims its a "pathway". Do the math on odds of playing pro or getting to college on a soccer scholarship.

Just FYI there are 20,000 D1 scholarships for football and 2,000 for D1 soccer on the men's side. Hard to parse out the exact participation levels, but youth soccer is much higher than football. How many "new" soccer scholarships are available each year for an incoming players? Potentially as low as a few hundred?

 

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

What causes all the problems is College sports. In other countries the end goal is playing soccer professionally. In America there's two end goals playing soccer professionally and playing soccer in college. College can even split into multiple levels of goals (D1, D2, D3) and "other reasons" like just getting admitted to certain schools. The distortion that college sports forces onto the market enables all the different leagues and clubs to exist.

This reminds me of a TED talk I listened to about choices.

Back in the day, he goes to a jeans shop and there were 3 kinds of jeans. He tried it on and left with one of them - in and out in 10 minutes. Wasn't the perfect fitted jeans but he was happy with it.

Now, he goes to a jeans shop and there are 50 different cuts and styles and spends 2 hours. He will inevitably leave with a better fitting pair of jeans. But, he's not necessarily happier about it.

Now, our country is so damn big and diverse and people want different things.
- Some want to play vs MLS academies
- Some want to play HS so no MLS Next
- Some want maximum college recruiter exposure
- Some want scholarships
- Some just want to use it to get into a school (Ivy, D3)

And we are a rich country with picky consumer behavior... (I know within that there is a wide range...)
So unfortunately leagues get formed to cater to consumer behavior...

It would be a lot simpler if it's just "hey try to go pro... those you don't make it, use it to go to college... and anyone not on that path already, go play rec"

 

[socalkdg]

Can’t speak for Pop Warner , but rec basketball , baseball , and flag football are way cheaper than club soccer , most of the registration fess are less than $200 which includes a uniform

Pop Warner is probably similar , but the equipment is expensive

Comparing club soccer to rec such as Pop Warner, NJB basketball, rec baseball and softball is way off, should use AYSO soccer.

Travel basketball above the rec level is expensive. Daughter did it for a year. Court time, coaches pay, tournaments. Combine that with $15 for parking and $10 per person to watch a game, you spend $100 additional on weekends to go watch, easily spending $400 per month.

Football is a different animal players are developed in High School, with many kids to big to play in pop warner thus don't even get started until Freshman year of High School.

 

[Socal-Soccer-Dad]

Travel basketball above the rec level is expensive. Daughter did it for a year. Court time, coaches pay, tournaments. Combine that with $15 for parking and $10 per person to watch a game, you spend $100 additional on weekends to go watch, easily spending $400 per month.

Have nephews and nieces in travel basketball and volleyball...

I can confirm... they're more expensive than club soccer... It all depends on how many out of town tourneys and how far out of town (flights needed?)

But in general, I haven't found that any other club level team sports is any cheaper than club soccer... (and any individual sports, it's astronomically more...)

 

[Grace T.]

Have nephews and nieces in travel basketball and volleyball...

I can confirm... they're more expensive than club soccer... It all depends on how many out of town tourneys and how far out of town (flights needed?)

But in general, I haven't found that any other club level team sports is any cheaper than club soccer... (and any individual sports, it's astronomically more...)

"Individual sport": track and swim? Track has the benefit that yes while technique is important and there are private trainers to shave off those seconds, it's mostly about the body shape, for some races endurances, and athleticism. My understanding it's the everyman's sports.

I can also confirm travel Lacrosse and water polo are similarly ridiculous, at least on the boys side.

For football, as I've written, my nephew jumped in at HS. The big exception about being able to jump in is the QB position. Those kids have been playing since elementary and the costs at least at the big name private schools are ridiculous and can include things like medical, scholarships you need to fund for your receivers, housing costs for your receivers and trainers.

 

[aong cangkol]

It would be a lot simpler if it's just "hey try to go pro... those you don't make it, use it to go to college... and anyone not on that path already, go play rec"

It is already like for Tennis and Swimming (could be other sports as well but these are my sports growing up).
There is something about soccer that gives people hope that their kids will make it, I am not sure what it is. Based on my conversations with other club soccer parents, most are certain their kids have a good chance to play soccer in college or at least use it for admission. I told them that even if you are in ECNL team, the chance is slim unless you are the star player on the team.

 

[asianautica]

It is already like for Tennis and Swimming (could be other sports as well but these are my sports growing up).
There is something about soccer that gives people hope that their kids will make it, I am not sure what it is. Based on my conversations with other club soccer parents, most are certain their kids have a good chance to play soccer in college or at least use it for admission. I told them that even if you are in ECNL team, the chance is slim unless you are the star player on the team.

That's true that the chance is slim. However, it's equally slim to get into an elite school as well. Just like you take AP classes, run for ASB, volunteer, work, etc. Most of these things alone won't get you into an elite school. However, you do it anyway, hoping a collection of all of it will. Also, elite D1 college coach I've talked to said grades first. If your grade is not good enough to qualify you as a regular admit, they won't even care about your soccer ability.

 

[watfly]

Comparing club soccer to rec such as Pop Warner, NJB basketball, rec baseball and softball is way off, should use AYSO soccer.

Travel basketball above the rec level is expensive. Daughter did it for a year. Court time, coaches pay, tournaments. Combine that with $15 for parking and $10 per person to watch a game, you spend $100 additional on weekends to go watch, easily spending $400 per month.

Football is a different animal players are developed in High School, with many kids to big to play in pop warner thus don't even get started until Freshman year of High School.

I believe that most travel basketball and baseball clubs typically are only one team deep at each age group. Whereas for the larger soccer clubs it's not uncommon for there to be 4-7 teams at a single age group. I think it's fair to compare the majority of club soccer to other sports teams/leagues like Pop Warner in terms of relative level of play. Maybe not ECNL and MLS Next, but pretty much everything else, yes.