Protect the players

[MacDre]

Soccer is a physical game, you either learn how to deal with or make comparison to 80s pro basketball teams.

You can encounter situations with big players, more aggressive ones, nasty players, etc doesn't matter what size you are just need to learn how to play vs all types. Have a good first touch, dribbling and passing abilities, good balance, mental strength, etc.

USA MNT play vs rough or physical teams in concacf all the time. Some of the players when they first get on those teams and not used to the hard nose over-aggressive style of opponents and they don't play well at first.

Have to recognize some teams will foul more than others, referees can miss calls and you can't change that no matter how much you want to take the physicality out of the game.

What you can do is focus on what you can control such as your performance and how you might react to fouls or non calls. The key is to focus on your strengths and not retaliate. When you maintain your compsure, you can frustrate your opponent and gain an advantage.

It's easy to lose your focus when playing against a team that will foul, hold, trip, push during games. When you focus on the so-called "dirty" plays, the rough team, the non-calls, etc you are just taking the focus on playing the game and become more focused on what the other team is doing instead.

Losing you focus normally means you lose sight of the opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net, move the ball up, create opportunities for passes, etc players can be less aggressive going for the ball to avoid contract, 2nd guessing. You can make more mistakes when you're focused on the physicality of your opponents.

Pulisic is a good example of a smaller player with good mental strength. He's fouled a lot, teams try to frustrating and knock him off his game. Instead of retaliating what does he do? he scores goals he creates chances, he stays focused, he executes his game plan he trusts his ability.

We need more pulisic type players and to teach those players to maintain focus and deal with all types of opponents. Rough ones are not going away anytime soon so deal with them and get on with it.

I don’t have a problem with rough play. You gotta bring ass to get ass and may bite off more than you can chew. My objection is to all of the flagrant fouls.

 

[crush]

Most of my dd injuries the last year or so have been by hackers who got beat and then push from behind. I've never seen anything like it since 1974 Roller Derby season. Those girls were tough SOBs. Soccer needs a big revolution to change the way the girls play and the way they seek revenge when they get beat. Two touch and go must be preached and taught with all the triangle triplex plays. This rugby and roller soccer is for the birds. Boo!!!!

 

[bossman]

Just wanted to re-iterate. Professional soccer referees are not the same as youth girls soccer referees. At higher levels there are consequences for not doing a proper job. They will not remain in the higher leagues with consistent bad performances. At the youth level there are many “play on” refs that will simply not call anything. I guess that’s just the pecking order and it’s hit or miss.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Soccer is a physical game, you either learn how to deal with or make comparison to 80s pro basketball teams.

You can encounter situations with big players, more aggressive ones, nasty players, etc doesn't matter what size you are just need to learn how to play vs all types. Have a good first touch, dribbling and passing abilities, good balance, mental strength, etc.

USA MNT play vs rough or physical teams in concacf all the time. Some of the players when they first get on those teams and not used to the hard nose over-aggressive style of opponents and they don't play well at first.

Have to recognize some teams will foul more than others, referees can miss calls and you can't change that no matter how much you want to take the physicality out of the game.

What you can do is focus on what you can control such as your performance and how you might react to fouls or non calls. The key is to focus on your strengths and not retaliate. When you maintain your compsure, you can frustrate your opponent and gain an advantage.

It's easy to lose your focus when playing against a team that will foul, hold, trip, push during games. When you focus on the so-called "dirty" plays, the rough team, the non-calls, etc you are just taking the focus on playing the game and become more focused on what the other team is doing instead.

Losing you focus normally means you lose sight of the opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net, move the ball up, create opportunities for passes, etc players can be less aggressive going for the ball to avoid contract, 2nd guessing. You can make more mistakes when you're focused on the physicality of your opponents.

Pulisic is a good example of a smaller player with good mental strength. He's fouled a lot, teams try to frustrating and knock him off his game. Instead of retaliating what does he do? he scores goals he creates chances, he stays focused, he executes his game plan he trusts his ability.

We need more pulisic type players and to teach those players to maintain focus and deal with all types of opponents. Rough ones are not going away anytime soon so deal with them and get on with it.

We are coming at this from two different directions @lafalafa. You have stayed true to the initial question posted in terms of "what should I do when this happens". I agree with everything you wrote before this post as well as this post in terms of "dealing with it". The "focus" you describe can also be used in many situations in life. My perspective is more about enjoying watching a game even if I don't know anyone playing. My suggestions are directed at rule changes to the game - not refs adjusting their calls with the existing rules. Although, consistently enforcing the existing rules would be nice. A year or so ago I was wondering why women's college basketball was widely broadcast on national TV while women's college soccer was not. Then I watched the women's "March madness". Damn, that was fun to watch - a lot fun. I can't say I regularly feel that way about watching women's college soccer. I just don't see the "beautiful game" very often. So, yeah, let's change a few rules (and consistently enforce the existing rules) so every advantage doesn't go to the defense. I notice that men's and women's lacrosse have a separate set of rules. Besides, after the world outside the US took the game of basketball and changed some rules, we owe them one and in the process can create a more entertaining women's game.

 

[lafalafa]

I don’t have a problem with rough play. You gotta bring ass to get ass and may bite off more than you can chew. My objection is to all of the flagrant fouls.

Yeah understandable can be difficult to watch being targeted consistently. Hack a Shaq can be a tactic just need to find a counter or ways to take advantage of that.

The most expensive transfer in the men's premier League this year was the most "fouled" player in the Premier League per game in the 2020/21 season.

Gets no less than 4.5 free-kicks per game, 110 fouls against, helps he's fast, can dribble, and finishes in the final third but you can say he earned a chunk of the $140 million transfer fee in part from getting fouled.

We are coming at this from two different directions @lafalafa. You have stayed true to the initial question posted in terms of "what should I do when this happens". I agree with everything you wrote before this post as well as this post in terms of "dealing with it". The "focus" you describe can also be used in many situations in life. My perspective is more about enjoying watching a game even if I don't know anyone playing. My suggestions are directed at rule changes to the game - not refs adjusting their calls with the existing rules. Although, consistently enforcing the existing rules would be nice. A year or so ago I was wondering why women's college basketball was widely broadcast on national TV while women's college soccer was not. Then I watched the women's "March madness". Damn, that was fun to watch - a lot fun. I can't say I regularly feel that way about watching women's college soccer. I just don't see the "beautiful game" very often. So, yeah, let's change a few rules (and consistently enforce the existing rules) so every advantage doesn't go to the defense. I notice that men's and women's lacrosse have a separate set of rules. Besides, after the world outside the US took the game of basketball and changed some rules, we owe them one and in the process can create a more entertaining women's game.

Ah I see, interesting ideas about changes, what change(s) in particular to what rule's?

Are you suggesting more stringent rules regarding physical play or fouls, accumulation or what exactly?

More entertaining for some fans is just more offense, passing, scoring, higher scores. 1-1 games don't appear on paper to be exciting but they could be but maybe not to the causal fan.

 

[kickingandscreaming]

Ah I see, interesting ideas about changes, what change(s) in particular to what rule's?

Are you suggesting more stringent rules regarding physical play or fouls, accumulation or what exactly?

More entertaining for some fans is just more offense, passing, scoring, higher scores. 1-1 games don't appear on paper to be exciting but they could be but maybe not to the causal fan.

Yes, I mentioned the primary rules I'd be interested in seeing enforced in my previous post. Run up behind someone receiving the ball and bang them from behind, you get a yellow. Grab someone's arm, shoulder, or jersey, or trip someone that got past you with the ball, you get a yellow.

Of course, the scenarios @bossman describes are a dereliction of duty for the referee. It doesn't matter what rules are used if a ref isn't going to enforce them.

 

[MacDre]

Another comment from Frank Schoon relevant to our discussion:

2 comments about "USMNT: Tyler Adams joins Christian Pulisic and Gio Reyna on sidelines".
frank schoon, September 26, 2021 at 9:31 a.m.
Amazing isn't it for all three to l play under Turbo conditions under TURBO type coaches .....DUH.

We all were hoping that our boys going to Europe would learn to play more of a sophisticated style, getting away from our own Turbo style, but unfortunately guess where they all end up? Germany ,turbo land and the most Turbo team of Turbo land, DORTMUNT,GERMANY (POOR REYNA and CP)

Then we have our own turbo coach coming from another turbo country USA ( jesse Marsche) coaching in Germany. Poor Tyler!!! Look at CP going to England ,hoping that he was saved from Turbo, but ends up in England, not much better, but at least he's coached by Frank Lampard, who actually knows and played the game at a high level. That is great, you think , but all of sudden guess who takes over, Thomas Tuchel ,'Mister Turbo' himself, CP's old coach at Dortmunt.

Guys ,this is a mess, sorry but I think this is no coincidence here why these are hurt....and interesting enough all have 'muscle' problems...hmmm

frank schoon replied, September 26, 2021 at 9:43 a.m.
I have to admit at Ajax some of the foreing players , of which I remember was a Portugese player, who stated he gets headache because he had to constantly think the game, meaning he had to think a step ahead or two, how should the be passed, to which foot, to which is the better option,etc.,......As a result he was always so tired after the game or practice.

At least these new players at Ajax have to only take a tylenol for their headache for having to use their mind more, as compared to those Turbo types who need to sit out. This particular player stated that he had think so much more about the game itself...The reason is that at Ajax, they believe it is better for the ball to do the running rather than the player and it is also a faster way of playing for you can't outrun the ball.....

One can only IMAGINE if Ajax trained all our soccer our American players how many Tylenols tablets would have to be taken...for American players have no clue about thinking the game ;for they first have to learn to wipe the foam off their mouths due to all the extra running.. You can also imagine the American coaches having to get use thinking the game for obviously if and when they begin to try and think the game, immediately we'll see an improvement in our players....

 

[bossman]

Another comment from Frank Schoon relevant to our discussion:

2 comments about "USMNT: Tyler Adams joins Christian Pulisic and Gio Reyna on sidelines".
frank schoon, September 26, 2021 at 9:31 a.m.
Amazing isn't it for all three to l play under Turbo conditions under TURBO type coaches .....DUH.

We all were hoping that our boys going to Europe would learn to play more of a sophisticated style, getting away from our own Turbo style, but unfortunately guess where they all end up? Germany ,turbo land and the most Turbo team of Turbo land, DORTMUNT,GERMANY (POOR REYNA and CP)

Then we have our own turbo coach coming from another turbo country USA ( jesse Marsche) coaching in Germany. Poor Tyler!!! Look at CP going to England ,hoping that he was saved from Turbo, but ends up in England, not much better, but at least he's coached by Frank Lampard, who actually knows and played the game at a high level. That is great, you think , but all of sudden guess who takes over, Thomas Tuchel ,'Mister Turbo' himself, CP's old coach at Dortmunt.

Guys ,this is a mess, sorry but I think this is no coincidence here why these are hurt....and interesting enough all have 'muscle' problems...hmmm

frank schoon replied, September 26, 2021 at 9:43 a.m.
I have to admit at Ajax some of the foreing players , of which I remember was a Portugese player, who stated he gets headache because he had to constantly think the game, meaning he had to think a step ahead or two, how should the be passed, to which foot, to which is the better option,etc.,......As a result he was always so tired after the game or practice.

At least these new players at Ajax have to only take a tylenol for their headache for having to use their mind more, as compared to those Turbo types who need to sit out. This particular player stated that he had think so much more about the game itself...The reason is that at Ajax, they believe it is better for the ball to do the running rather than the player and it is also a faster way of playing for you can't outrun the ball.....

One can only IMAGINE if Ajax trained all our soccer our American players how many Tylenols tablets would have to be taken...for American players have no clue about thinking the game ;for they first have to learn to wipe the foam off their mouths due to all the extra running.. You can also imagine the American coaches having to get use thinking the game for obviously if and when they begin to try and think the game, immediately we'll see an improvement in our players....

Not sure how this relates to this thread. Did you mean to start your own thread?

 

[rainbow_unicorn]

In a scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed, even punched…what should be the appropriate response?

 

[MacDre]

Not sure how this relates to this thread. Did you mean to start your own thread?

Isn’t this thread about protecting players? The quotes I posted reference how our USMNT stars are currently injured from playing dumb turbo soccer. I think the style of play is a substantial factor that is oftentimes overlooked in how we can protect players. I think refs are kind of limited in what they can control as long as we are playing dumb turbo soccer. I think someone upthread distinguished pro level refs from club level refs; but our injured USMNT players show that good refs can’t protect us if we continue to play dumb turbo soccer.

So, playing smart positional soccer where the ball does the running is another way to protect players in addition to addressing lax refereeing.

 

[dad4]

Isn’t this thread about protecting players? The quotes I posted reference how our USMNT stars are currently injured from playing dumb turbo soccer. I think the style of play is a substantial factor that is oftentimes overlooked in how we can protect players. I think refs are kind of limited in what they can control as long as we are playing dumb turbo soccer. I think someone upthread distinguished pro level refs from club level refs; but our injured USMNT players show that good refs can’t protect us if we continue to play dumb turbo soccer.

So, playing smart positional soccer where the ball does the running is another way to protect players in addition to addressing lax refereeing.

I think the thread is mostly about what can you do when the ref is calling an unsafe game.

It is not really about the relative merits of direct vs possession tactics. Perfectly good topic for another thread, and you’ll find plenty of people who agree that “boot the ball and fight for it” is a recipe for injuries.

 

[MacDre]

I think the thread is mostly about what can you do when the ref is calling an unsafe game.

It is not really about the relative merits of direct vs possession tactics. Perfectly good topic for another thread, and you’ll find plenty of people who agree that “boot the ball and fight for it” is a recipe for injuries.

I get it. My point is that it takes all hands on deck to protect players. If the game is turbo which is physical and aggressive there’s only so much a ref can do. In other words, do we have unrealistic expectations about what referees can do during a turbo game?

 

[espola]

I think the thread is mostly about what can you do when the ref is calling an unsafe game.

It is not really about the relative merits of direct vs possession tactics. Perfectly good topic for another thread, and you’ll find plenty of people who agree that “boot the ball and fight for it” is a recipe for injuries.

It's direct and possession, not vs.

 

[Eagle33]

It would help to know the age group.....regardless, what I'm noticing lately, and I hope it's not becoming a pattern, is indifference from referees. Maybe because they are doing too many games and just tired or maybe because they are way over their head for the level of the games, again due to referee shortage. Either way it's not good.
From my knowledge, and correct me if wrong, every ref is rated inside referee association for the level of the game he/she can do. So highest rated refs will get highest level games and so on. So if you are talking about youngers game, you are shit out of luck, sorry.
As far as pulling your team off the field, it's a coaches choice, but many leagues will have consequences not in your favor for doing this.

 

[dad4]

It would help to know the age group.....regardless, what I'm noticing lately, and I hope it's not becoming a pattern, is indifference from referees. Maybe because they are doing too many games and just tired or maybe because they are way over their head for the level of the games, again due to referee shortage. Either way it's not good.
From my knowledge, and correct me if wrong, every ref is rated inside referee association for the level of the game he/she can do. So highest rated refs will get highest level games and so on. So if you are talking about youngers game, you are shit out of luck, sorry.
As far as pulling your team off the field, it's a coaches choice, but many leagues will have consequences not in your favor for doing this.

The referee training includes more about how to be indifferent than how to recognize fouls.

What little foul recognition help we got was in response to direct questions.

It kind of makes sense. If I didn’t know how to be indifferent, I wouldn’t be a ref for long, because the sideline comments would get to me.

But it’s also a recipe for teaching people to be a bad referee and not to care about it.

 

[baldref]

The referee training includes more about how to be indifferent than how to recognize fouls.

What little foul recognition help we got was in response to direct questions.

It kind of makes sense. If I didn’t know how to be indifferent, I wouldn’t be a ref for long, because the sideline comments would get to me.

But it’s also a recipe for teaching people to be a bad referee and not to care about it.

There are lots of levels to referee training. Not all is great, but the higher you progress the more talk there is about foul recognition and when to issue cards, and game management. Depends a lot on which cal south administrator you have leading the lessons.

 

[lafalafa]

The referee training includes more about how to be indifferent than how to recognize fouls.

What little foul recognition help we got was in response to direct questions.

It kind of makes sense. If I didn’t know how to be indifferent, I wouldn’t be a ref for long, because the sideline comments would get to me.

But it’s also a recipe for teaching people to be a bad referee and not to care about it.

When did you take your training?

The Referee Instructors we had in person have been very thorough and we had a lot on foul recognition talks, examples, etc and very little on crowd or spectator management. This was years ago so maybe times have changed.

When I think back about the title of this thread:. "protect the players"....heard this said several times at younger games but it was normally just from vocal parents who would parrot this phrase like it was suppose to trigger something like....do you want a cracker Polly...

Anyway do coaches really say this in today's game or is it one of those favorite parent saying still?

 

[dad4]

When did you take your training?

The Referee Instructors we had in person have been very thorough and we had a lot on foul recognition talks, examples, etc and very little on crowd or spectator management. This was years ago so maybe times have changed.

When I think back about the title of this thread:. "protect the players"....heard this said several times at younger games but it was normally just from vocal parents who would parrot this phrase like it was suppose to trigger something like....do you want a cracker Polly...

Anyway do coaches really say this in today's game or is it one of those favorite parent saying still?

I heard coaches asking refs to protect the players just last weekend. Of course they wanted it to trigger a response. The response they wanted was for the ref to start calling the dangerous contact before another kid gets hurt.

“Polly wants a cracker.”??? More than a little insulting. Remember that, as referees, you and I never hear if and when a kid gets injured in one of our games. That parent you mock as being nothing more than a parrot? They are the one who has to talk to the doctor about surgery options after the MRI. You and I don’t.

 

[lafalafa]

I heard coaches asking refs to protect the players just last weekend. Of course they wanted it to trigger a response. The response they wanted was for the ref to start calling the dangerous contact before another kid gets hurt.

“Polly wants a cracker.”??? More than a little insulting. Remember that, as referees, you and I never hear if and when a kid gets injured in one of our games. That parent you mock as being nothing more than a parrot? They are the one who has to talk to the doctor about surgery options after the MRI. You and I don’t.

Really lighten up, nobody said that or wants to see anybody injured. Never have mocked a parent or spectator in my life.

Is just a catch phase that obviously means different things to different people and your putting your own spin on a it. So you know that phase is meant to trigger a responses. Guess I triggered yours and you played the "injury" card right away, typical.

 

[Grace T.]

I heard coaches asking refs to protect the players just last weekend. Of course they wanted it to trigger a response. The response they wanted was for the ref to start calling the dangerous contact before another kid gets hurt.

“Polly wants a cracker.”??? More than a little insulting. Remember that, as referees, you and I never hear if and when a kid gets injured in one of our games. That parent you mock as being nothing more than a parrot? They are the one who has to talk to the doctor about surgery options after the MRI. You and I don’t.

I had the same experience this weekend. There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.

The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up. Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them). As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level. They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate. And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.

Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.

 

[GoldenGate]

I had the same experience this weekend. There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.

The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up. Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them). As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level. They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate. And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.

Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.

What do you think crush? Grace T. seems to be saying that parents chasing a "national championship" for their 11 year old children is a really f**king stupid idea and bad for long term development. Are you going to let her get away with that?