Vaccine

Grace T. said:
The "peter out" (see espola...more quotes!!!) theory is dependent on two assumptions: 1) no waning vaccine immunity, and 2) the variants don't continue to evade both natural and vaccine immunity.

The problem with the masks forever is that you are essentially condemning the office to death. Masks to the upper middle class are a signal it's not safe. If it's not safe, you can't demand people return to the offices (particularly given the trend to shared space, open offices).
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For SCC, I don't need to worry about whether there is a booster. If there is one, we'll take it. If it ends up being annual, it goes into the office flu shot.

You think winter masks are incompatible with offices? How do you explain Tokyo? Last I checked, they still have an office building or two.
 
dad4 said:
For SCC, I don't need to worry about whether there is a booster. If there is one, we'll take it. If it ends up being annual, it goes into the office flu shot.

You think winter masks are incompatible with offices? How do you explain Tokyo? Last I checked, they still have an office building or two.
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Are both countries in lockstep in terms of how they are dealing with COVID? It doesn't appear that way to me. Many US companies have been doing business remotely for well over a year. If it's not safe enough to go back without a mask, why bother going back at all?
 
kickingandscreaming said:
Are both countries in lockstep in terms of how they are dealing with COVID? It doesn't appear that way to me. Many US companies have been doing business remotely for well over a year. If it's not safe enough to go back without a mask, why bother going back at all?
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Nothing to do with whether US is mirroring Japan.

Japan was just an easy counterexample to grace's claim that masks are incompatible with offices. Japan has had offices and masks for decades.

For that matter, we had masks in the office in 1919 and again in the 1950s. And many companies require masks right now for labs, manufacturing, shipping, receiving, and so on.

Given all that, I cannot believe that masks in the office are inconceivable. We've already done it.
 
Bruddah IZ said:
Delta is Dying


An earlier study at the Cleveland Clinic of more than 52,000 health-care workers from December 16, 2020 to May 15, 2021 (just before Delta became dominant in the U.S.) found that both natural immunity and vaccine immunity provide good protection against infections. Not one of the 1,359 previously infected subjects who remained unvaccinated was reinfected. Their risk of infection was no higher than for vaccinated people, whether they were previously infected or uninfected.

Moreover, natural immunity thus far appears to be at least as long-lasting as vaccine immunity. Even before vaccines were widely available, studies indicated that four types of immune memory persist for more than six months after infection. The Cleveland Clinic results suggested that natural immunity provides protection against reinfection for ten or more months, leading the authors to conclude that previously infected Covid-19 patients are “unlikely to benefit” from vaccination. Another study found that convalescent individuals maintained immunologic protection for 12 months without vaccination, though protection could be enhanced by vaccination.

Covid-19 treatments have improved as well. Several versions of monoclonal antibodies have been authorized and are now readily available. These medicines are highly effective at keeping early Covid-19 from progressing, thus decreasing the risk of hospitalization or death by 70 percent to 85 percent, particularly for people at high risk of developing severe disease. Steroids and new, more effective ICU protocols have also led to lower Covid-19 mortality.
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I'm curious. You repeatedly doubt the value of vaccines, and suggest people should develop immunity by surviving an infection. But then why do you trust the antibody treatments more than vaccines? The monclonal antibodies are mass produced in a lab by scientists, and delivered to qualified patients through IVs - if staff are available. There are risks associated with the antibody therapy too. Do you trust these therapies because there hasn't been a disinformation campaign to try to plant seeds of doubt? Note that the monoclonal antibodies will only work if they recognize the spike protein, and as SARS-Cov2 continues to replicate, variants can develop to avoid neutralization.
 
How many parents would want to play pick up soccer games while their kids practice or play games? It might be amusing. We used to do that while they were in AYSO. Now we mostly sit around and increase our BMI while watching them sweat and tell them to push harder..
 
Roadrunner said:
I'm curious. You repeatedly doubt the value of vaccines, and suggest people should develop immunity by surviving an infection. But then why do you trust the antibody treatments more than vaccines? The monclonal antibodies are mass produced in a lab by scientists, and delivered to qualified patients through IVs - if staff are available. There are risks associated with the antibody therapy too. Do you trust these therapies because there hasn't been a disinformation campaign to try to plant seeds of doubt? Note that the monoclonal antibodies will only work if they recognize the spike protein, and as SARS-Cov2 continues to replicate, variants can develop to avoid neutralization.
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I'll take a Rum and Coke, that guy at the other end of the bar
scratching his butt will take a squirt of Cortizone-10.
 
dad4 said:
Nothing to do with whether US is mirroring Japan.

Japan was just an easy counterexample to grace's claim that masks are incompatible with offices. Japan has had offices and masks for decades.

For that matter, we had masks in the office in 1919 and again in the 1950s. And many companies require masks right now for labs, manufacturing, shipping, receiving, and so on.

Given all that, I cannot believe that masks in the office are inconceivable. We've already done it.
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Japan residents sweep their own sidewalks as well. We’ll see.
 
GoldenGate said:
How is it that anti-vaxxers refuse to understand that preventative measures save lives even if they don't save every life? How is it that they think that vaccines don't help because there are breakthrough cases, although vaccines virtually eliminate the risk of serious illness and death in those breakthrough cases?
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Vaccines just hitch hike on the immune system by uber needle directly in to the blood stream instead of having to go through that thicket of nose hairs that flow from your nose. Seriously though, the ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM movement misses the multi layered immune system. It is too fragile to compete with corona aerosols. Otherwise, we could just crop dust people and hope the mRNA is robust enough to go to battle the same way that Corona does. But no, it needs to be put directly in to the blood stream. Pretty lame defense.

GoldenGate said:
This idiot, moron or some other name thinks we shouldn't wear masks, shouldn't get vaccinated, shouldn't take any precautions because somewhere else in the world it can still spread more readily. Measles, the flu, polio are all still spread around the world, so we should get rid of those vaccines too because intervention clearly doesn't help, right idiot?
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Nobody said you can't wear as many mask as you need. What helps is clean drinking water, proper sanitation, healthy BMI, health diet and daily exercise.
 
dad4 said:
For SCC, 5-12 and Biden's mandate should do it. We may be also stuck with indoor masks during winter as a social thing indefinitely. Might be a booster eventually.

For the southeast and upper midwest? They're just going to keep getting sick until they hit their 90-95%. Wish it weren't true.
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The Totalitarian Roots of Vaccine Mandates
Over the course of the pandemic, principles of what a free society means are being redefined by collectivists.

Consider this essay, Don’t COVID Vaccine Mandates Actually Promote Freedom? Medical ethicists Kyle Ferguson and Arthur Caplan argue, “Those who oppose cracking down on the unvaccinated are getting it all wrong.” Ferguson and Caplan are sure their opponents have a “flawed view of freedom.” They argue “Passports and mandates are hardly ‘strong-arm tactics.’ These strategies are better seen as liberty inducers. They bring about freedom rather than deplete it.”

They add, “a successful COVID-19 vaccination campaign will liberate us — as individuals and as a collective — from the callous grip of a pandemic that just won’t seem to end.” Orwell’s “Party” proclaimed in 1984 that “Freedom is slavery.” Ferguson and Caplan come close to arguing “Slavery is freedom.”
 
dad4 said:
For SCC, I don't need to worry about whether there is a booster. If there is one, we'll take it. If it ends up being annual, it goes into the office flu shot.

You think winter masks are incompatible with offices? How do you explain Tokyo? Last I checked, they still have an office building or two.
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The uptake for the flu shot is about 50% IIRC.

Mask compliance isn't 100% in Japan. Generally before the pandemic, they wore them if they weren't feeling well or were afraid to get sick. But the problem in the US is you've signaled that mask mean dangerous. It's not normalized and probably never will be with about 40% of the population. So while you have a mask mandate you are signaling to workers it's not safe, which means the offices can't reopen. If you were to do it voluntarily and maybe even encourage you'd get some uptake....but mandate it and people dig in their heels.

We've secretly suspected your closet desire is for people to wear masks during flu season even if it's just for the flu and for all this to get normalized. This seems to indicate you are right.

p.s. went to dinner at the Smokehouse this evening in Burbank. We ate at the patio because we have the dog with us. Surprising number of people on the patio despite that they took down their front of the house outdoor tent. Inside was at about 50% capacity. But the mask mandate in restaurants is so stupid. As my party was walking out with the mask and carrying the dog on our hip, we noticed that practically NO ONE at any table was masked. What good did our wearing masks crossing the dining room actually do?
 
Roadrunner said:
How many parents would want to play pick up soccer games while their kids practice or play games? It might be amusing. We used to do that while they were in AYSO. Now we mostly sit around and increase our BMI while watching them sweat and tell them to push harder..
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My father in his 30s used to do this while my brother and I played AYSO. They had quite a league going. But they neglected to account that the teams were all segregated into nationalities and they were all supercompetitive as a result. One slide tackle and a shattered ankle by one doc in his 40s and that was pretty much the end of the league.
 
Roadrunner said:
I'm curious. You repeatedly doubt the value of vaccines,
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I actually don't doubt the value vaccines. To those who need to travel to make money vaccine$ have much value. They aren't of much value to me because I am a part of a caste system that allows me to work from a laptop and create value without the aid of a vaccine.


Roadrunner said:
and suggest people should develop immunity by surviving an infection.
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Please show me the post where I've suggested such a thing. But I am not surprised that many have developed immunity by infection that you must be implying they went looking for?


Roadrunner said:
But then why do you trust the antibody treatments more than vaccines?
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I don't know that I do. But the government is not mandating that treatment and so it has that going for it.

Roadrunner said:
The monclonal antibodies are mass produced in a lab by scientists, and delivered to qualified patients through IVs - if staff are available. There are risks associated with the antibody therapy too. Do you trust these therapies because there hasn't been a disinformation campaign to try to plant seeds of doubt? Note that the monoclonal antibodies will only work if they recognize the spike protein, and as SARS-Cov2 continues to replicate, variants can develop to avoid neutralization.
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But to your point, I don't know enough about monoclonals to opine. All I know is that Desantis is making all you ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM movement folks look bad with the kind of numbers the state is churning out despite their OPEN status. But it does seem that the ANTI-IMMUNE SYSTEM movement is resistant to all other forms of therapies that allow folks to weather the COVID storm. I understand there are risk and challenges with ALL drugs and therapies. But the CDC EUA'd Hydroxychloroquine because nothing else was available at the time under the assumption that the vaccine would be the Silver Bullet that it never has been...ever. And yes variants do develop. That's the virus gonna virus thing that you people hate until you realize that there is a new flu vaccine every year.

I'm a pro-market guy, not pro-business. Moderna, Pfizer, and J&J are the Too Big to Fail of Big Pharma. The government is picking winners and losers like it always does in its long history of failed interventions that lack redundancy and innovation. This is nothing but big government crony capitalism designed to bail out big pharma's creditors. The TBTF banks.

But just jump to 3:34 and you'll see the politics of COVID

 
Grace T. said:
Looks like Rand Paul may best Fauci on this issue too. If they do recognized natural immunity via confirmed PCR test, it would resolve the vaccination numbers (we'd be close to 80-90% of the whole population in some heavily hit jurisdictions. But they won't do it because they are too far out on the limb already,.

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Same guy as the WSJ article. He changed his tune on the Israeli study. This time he got it right.
 
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