Vaccine

[Grace T.]

I don't actually blame the individuals. I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement. I blame the misinformation overload and the grifters on MSM who laid doubt. You know who these people are. You're smart. I don't blame many of these people who haven't gotten vaccinated when they've been inundated with misinformation from sources they've historically trusted.

I think we can agree the grifters are a problem. I also think the experts though and how they've handled things are a huge part of the problem.

 

[espola]

Scapegoating.

Again, you haven't defined even what exactly the problem is you are trying to solve.

We are now adding "scapegoating" to the list of words you use in variance to their commonly-agreed meanings.

 

[dad4]

Ah...well then we come to the heart of the matter because I frankly don't see cases as much of a problem. The ratios aren't fixed because it depends on the vaccination rates in the community and the age of the community. Again, a casedemic in a bunch of under 12s is not nearly as much of a problem as an outbreak in an unvaxxed nursing home.

Highly vaccinated areas aren’t seeing all that many cases. There is no such things as “a casedemic in a bunch of under 12s.”.

The places with the high case rates are the same as the paces with the low vax rates.

 

[Grace T.]

The strawman is your "You actually claiming the vaccine is working perfectly" I never said that, but I can see how it is necessary to your argument.

I'm trying to be of help, but we don't seem to be m making much progress.

It was phrased as a question which you ducked.

 

[NorCalDad]

I think we can agree the grifters are a problem. I also think the experts though and how they've handled things are a huge part of the problem.

But that doesn't explain why my county is so highly vaxed -- for that matter the entirety of the Bay Area. Why the difference?

 

[espola]

So is it my responsibility to gobble up my food as quick as possible?
Do I need to be putting my mask up and down between sips?
What if I'm drunk and I get on the plane and fall asleep?
What if I accidentally fall asleep?
What I just take my time eating my meal?
What if everyone on that flight takes their time eating the meal....that have more effect than the handful of 5 year olds without their masks with the big gaping holes on the side?

Again, we've had this argument before. Personal responsibility is all fine and good, but you can't set policy assuming everyone is going to be angels. You have to assume there will be aholes in there.

I told you the story before about the LARP my son and I played at Disneyland and how people reacted to every rule revision by finding creative solutions. People are clever and given a chance to bend (not break) the rule they will take it. But as we've discussed before, while I'm doing policy, you are doing religion

What if you actually stuck to watch you originally claimed, that people only wear their masks on takeoff and landing?

 

[Grace T.]

We are now adding "scapegoating" to the list of words you use in variance to their commonly-agreed meanings.

Funny coming from the strawman guy

 

[espola]

I think we can agree the grifters are a problem. I also think the experts though and how they've handled things are a huge part of the problem.

That's what the grifters say.

 

[dad4]

But that doesn't explain why my county is so highly vaxed -- for that matter the entirety of the Bay Area. Why the difference?

1- SES. 2- Indian and Chinese immigrants. 3- lack of Fox News viewers. 4- lots of engineers, and engineers tend to believe scientists.

 

[espola]

Funny coming from the strawman guy

I can't help but point out that again, as usual, you are using an unproven assertion to further later arguments.

Do you think no one is going to notice? Do you yourself know that you are doing it?

 

[Grace T.]

That's what the grifters say.

As you know Magoo, it's possible for the grifters to be right about something and wrong about another. But in your world it's always noon.

 

[watfly]

But that doesn't explain why my county is so highly vaxed -- for that matter the entirety of the Bay Area. Why the difference?

There are a lot of variables but socioeconomics is one.

 

[espola]

In reality, mommy was engaging in political theater, and that is all that happened. We know actual facts about what happened, but that gets in the way of anti-maskers and their lies. The actual facts are: (1) the mother admits she had never had her two year old wear a mask before, but decided that the best time to try it out for her allegedly asthmatic two year old would be on an AA flight surrounded by her friends with video cameras; (2) there is an AA policy for addressing issues like this in advance that would have avoided this completely, which mommy admits that she failed to comply with it although she was the only person who knew her kid (allegedly) has asthma and might not be able to wear a mask; (3) mommy took a two year old with an alleged serious respiratory issue maskless into the most crowded building in one of the highest risk counties in the entire U.S.; (4) we know this situation was completely the mommy's fault and could have been avoided because AA immediately rebooked her on another flight and, miracle of miracles, they were able to make it there without incident with kiddy wearing an incident at no cost to mommy. Mommy fails to mention in her monetized social media rant that AA rebooked her on the next flight and, during she and her child were "miraculously" able to comply with AA's rules.

"Strangely", although surrounded by friends and family on the flight, and although they clearly tried very hard to videotape an incident, they showed exactly zero footage of anyone at AA acting inappropriately. They showed exactly zero footage of the "incident" that led to them being deplaned which, as AA explained, really involved mommy and her child not seatbelted and her mother irresponsibly letting the baby lay in the aisle and move around the cabin while taxiing for takeoff and did not involve her indicating in any way that her child was asthmatic or even having trouble breathing. The footage they do show is of a two year old crying (shocking!) but still not wearing his seat belt.

Labeling this "security theater" is what anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers like Grace T. do. The lengths to which she and her friends had to go to reframe terrible parenting like this is impressive.

If Grace has actually put you on ignore, it's a shame that she is missing this.

 

[Grace T.]

I can't help but point out that again, as usual, you are using an unproven assertion to further later arguments.

Do you think no one is going to notice? Do you yourself know that you are doing it?

You know I used to do Oxford debate back in high school too. The thing I realized about Oxford is you go down a rabbit hole of rules and procedures that you begin not to make any sense. It's why I switched to parliamentary. I thought the entire Oxford thing was just a spectacle, with a bunch of people trying to rattle off things and make points. It actually makes you a very poor debater out there in the real world.

But I still think it's funny you think we are actually "debating" (see the quotes there again). Another snort for you.

 

[espola]

You know I used to do Oxford debate back in high school too. The thing I realized about Oxford is you go down a rabbit hole of rules and procedures that you begin not to make any sense. It's why I switched to parliamentary. I thought the entire Oxford thing was just a spectacle, with a bunch of people trying to rattle off things and make points. It actually makes you a very poor debater out there in the real world.

But I still think it's funny you think we are actually "debating" (see the quotes there again). Another snort for you.

Formal Forensics as a class or club activity is used to teach people by demonstration and criticism ways to think clearly and make convincing argument ts. I guess it didn't help.

Please continue.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Cases are useful not for themselves, but as a leading indicator of hospitalizations and deaths. It’s the hospitalizations and deaths that are the problem.

The three are not decoupled. The ratio has just changed over the long term. But a short term doubling of cases still means you can expect more hospitalizations and deaths, too.

Delta has yielded more cases but consistently lower IFR yoy with last September being pre-vax and more masking!!

 

[kickingandscreaming]

I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement.

Is this an "old man yells at clouds" moment? The best way to approach this is with honest, open leadership, not paternalistic, hypocritical douchebags who preach one thing about policy but live another. The more "red lines" that get drawn around individual choices, the larger the group of ... deplorables(?) becomes. It doesn't help. Quite the contrary, it makes governing more difficult as you may have noticed.

 

[Kicker4Life]

Sure, but what are you going to say...."Ok everyone, lose weight, fast"

Well we’ve know Obesity is one of the HIGHEST risk factors for oat least a year. Have you seen one single mention of it in all the CDC rhetoric or from the media? No, it’s always and only been “vaccines”, why? That is the part I just don’t understand.

A key argument for vaccines is to reduce the strain on hospitals. Well wouldn’t something as simple as diet and exercise have a very similar affect at a reduced cost to our government and overall healthcare industry?

I would think of that message had started back in July of LY we would also be a much healthier nation.

To me adding a BMI scale to the entrance of businesses isn’t much different than having to show a Vaccine card, but that’s my opinion.

Thank you for a civil dialogue!

 

[watfly]

I don't actually blame the individuals. I blame the fact that there is even an anti-vaxer movement. I blame the misinformation overload and the grifters on MSM who laid doubt. You know who these people are. You're smart. I don't blame many of these people who haven't gotten vaccinated when they've been inundated with misinformation from sources they've historically trusted.

There is plenty of misinformation on all sides. However, somehow pro-vax misinformation is more acceptable because it "errs on the side of caution". Again I appreciate that science changes over time but the pace its changing and doing 180's is rightfully going to lead to skepticism. Look at the guidance on boosters. Can we label Dad4 an anti-vaxxer because he is not in favor of a booster?

Having said that, I believe we should blame the individual. We were given a brain for a reason, although some work better than others. Ultimately we each have to wade through the info and decide what's best for our family. Is that selfish to put family first, maybe, but I strongly believe that my duty is first to my family ahead of the community. The community has all sorts of tools along with the responsibility to protect itself outside of what's happening in my family. Of course, I'm not condoning reckless behavior. If I'm sick I'm not going out to the market because I need to feed my family. That's been the biggest problem with our Covid health policy is the lack of focus on the sick and vulnerable, but instead focusing on blanket approaches that obscure the true problem.

 

[espola]

Well we’ve know Obesity is one of the HIGHEST risk factors for oat least a year. Have you seen one single mention of it in all the CDC rhetoric or from the media? No, it’s always and only been “vaccines”, why? That is the part I just don’t understand.

A key argument for vaccines is to reduce the strain on hospitals. Well wouldn’t something as simple as diet and exercise have a very similar affect at a reduced cost to our government and overall healthcare industry?

I would think of that message had started back in July of LY we would also be a much healthier nation.

To me adding a BMI scale to the entrance of businesses isn’t much different than having to show a Vaccine card, but that’s my opinion.

Thank you for a civil dialogue!

Getting vaccinated, including signing in, getting the shot, and waiting while they watch for reactions takes about half an hour. How much weight can you lose in half an hour?