How will this affect womens sports in college?

met61 said:
Simple, why didn't your son identify as a year or two younger and he'd be the tallest GK again.

If birth gender is fluid, why not birth year? After all, isn't it compassionate for the undersized kids being dominated and bullied in their birth year group? Wouldn't it "level the playing field" for those born smaller, weaker, and less talented? OR think how one could dominate due to physical difference competing one or two years down.

Personally, I'd like to identify as 62yo and start tapping into social security.

Ultimately, who gets to determine the rules and where does it end?
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The NCAA decides its rules. The IOC decides its rules. ECNL decides its rules. Each HS sports governing body. That’s how things work. Sports governing bodies get to set their own rules, so long as their rules don’t break laws.

You know who doesn’t decide the rules? You. You’re just a sore loser. If you want to start the bigoty sports league, go for it.
 
Grace T. said:
Part of the problem with this issue is no one wants to acknowledge the other side has concerns. They just don’t want to hear it. So we get extreme positions like a transgendered person should be allowed to play at any level just by declaring they are female v no one should trample on women/girls rights and if that means someone else doesn’t have a place to play too bad.
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No place to play? That’s a problem? I didn’t know we all had a right to a “place to play” D1 sports.

So, if I was not allowed to play intercollegiate sports, my fundamental rights have been violated?

Wow. I wish I had known that, as an overweight bookish math geek, I was being discriminated against. I had a constitutional right to play D1 hoops! All of NCAA history would have been different. That could have been me, dribbling past Terrence Tao and dunking on Noam Elkies. Of course, they’d have to lower the rim a couple feet for us.

Or maybe, if you don’t qualify for a particular sports team, just play ultimate frisbee in the quad like everyone else. No one will ask or care about your birth gender.
 
dad4 said:
No place to play? That’s a problem? I didn’t know we all had a right to a “place to play” D1 sports.

So, if I was not allowed to play intercollegiate sports, my fundamental rights have been violated?

Wow. I wish I had known that, as an overweight bookish math geek, I was being discriminated against. I had a constitutional right to play D1 hoops! All of NCAA history would have been different. That could have been me, dribbling past Terrence Tao and dunking on Noam Elkies. Of course, they’d have to lower the rim a couple feet for us.

Or maybe, if you don’t qualify for a particular sports team, just play ultimate frisbee in the quad like everyone else. No one will ask or care about your birth gender.
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A. We agree then nothing about sports is “fair”. It’s purely from a happenstance at birth that you were born a bookish math geek and Michael Jordan was born with goat potential. Yeah effort and hard work can change some of that and Michael Jordan might not except by accident and effort be Michael Jordan, but you’ll never be Michael Jordan
B. I use the term rights in the natural law not constitutional law sense, because that’s what the poster used when he said his dd rights would be trampled. Where did this “right” come from? If you prefer a more appropriate term would be “interests”
C. I agree in part. My criticism of the far woke position is they frame this as a discrimination or constitutional rights perspective. Prior to politics getting involved this wasn’t handled as a legal issue. It was resolved by the ncaa which sought to balance the interests of the various parties concerned.
 
Grace T. said:
A. We agree then nothing about sports is “fair”. It’s purely from a happenstance at birth that you were born a bookish math geek and Michael Jordan was born with goat potential. Yeah effort and hard work can change some of that and Michael Jordan might not except by accident and effort be Michael Jordan, but you’ll never be Michael Jordan
B. I use the term rights in the natural law not constitutional law sense, because that’s what the poster used when he said his dd rights would be trampled. Where did this “right” come from? If you prefer a more appropriate term would be “interests”
C. I agree in part. My criticism of the far woke position is they frame this as a discrimination or constitutional rights perspective. Prior to politics getting involved this wasn’t handled as a legal issue. It was resolved by the ncaa which sought to balance the interests of the various parties concerned.
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Ding, ding, ding...welcome to our country on woke democrat political BS! Hence, the point of the original post.
 
EOTL said:
The NCAA decides its rules. The IOC decides its rules. ECNL decides its rules. Each HS sports governing body. That’s how things work. Sports governing bodies get to set their own rules, so long as their rules don’t break laws.

You know who doesn’t decide the rules? You. You’re just a sore loser. If you want to start the bigoty sports league, go for it.
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Let me make it simple for you dummy; it is the leftist db's elected by you and your merry band of morons that mandate the policies forcing rule changes by the governing bodies.
 
EOTL said:
The NCAA decides its rules. The IOC decides its rules. ECNL decides its rules. Each HS sports governing body. That’s how things work. Sports governing bodies get to set their own rules, so long as their rules don’t break laws.

You know who doesn’t decide the rules? You. You’re just a sore loser. If you want to start the bigoty sports league, go for it.
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You left out the part where, if the gay lobby doesn't like your rules, they sue you and drag your name through the mud.

For major organizations, this works. Remember that the real goal is to sell TV ads and skim a bit off the top. From that angle, allowing a tiny fraction of men into the women’s competition is a small price to pay for being able to grab your share of the IOC bribes this year.

But don’t be surprised when people react against it. Not many people look to the IOC or NCAA for their moral compass. People have a basic notion of fair play, and it doesn’t include a 6’6” 240 pound man shoving college girls out of the way to get a rebound.
 
dad4 said:
You left out the part where, if the gay lobby doesn't like your rules, they sue you and drag your name through the mud.

For major organizations, this works. Remember that the real goal is to sell TV ads and skim a bit off the top. From that angle, allowing a tiny fraction of men into the women’s competition is a small price to pay for being able to grab your share of the IOC bribes this year.

But don’t be surprised when people react against it. Not many people look to the IOC or NCAA for their moral compass. People have a basic notion of fair play, and it doesn’t include a 6’6” 240 pound man shoving college girls out of the way to get a rebound.
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Disclaimer: I am what would be considered "the left". I absolutely believe in protections and equality for LGBTQ, I believe (and have always believed) that gays should be allowed to marry. All of that being said to pretend that there isn't a biological difference between transwomen and biological women is ridiculous. There is an obvious advantage if you were born a male, with all the extra muscle mass, testosterone, etc. and then convert to a female. How long this difference last is the material point. To scream "bigot!!!" when people simply try to bring up this fact is getting us nowhere. Same goes for those who state transwomen should never be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Let's look at the science. How long after a male is transitioned to a female until the hormones and muscle become more equal? Or is the biological advantage a transwoman has over a biological permanent?

To not discuss this issue at all is not going to solve anything. There IS a difference between biological females and trans females--there just is--how long does that difference last is the question. That's what needs to be discussed.

Complex issue: Protect women's sports while welcoming trans athletes (usatoday.com)
 
Imtired said:
Disclaimer: I am what would be considered "the left". I absolutely believe in protections and equality for LGBTQ, I believe (and have always believed) that gays should be allowed to marry. All of that being said to pretend that there isn't a biological difference between transwomen and biological women is ridiculous. There is an obvious advantage if you were born a male, with all the extra muscle mass, testosterone, etc. and then convert to a female. How long this difference last is the material point. To scream "bigot!!!" when people simply try to bring up this fact is getting us nowhere. Same goes for those who state transwomen should never be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Let's look at the science. How long after a male is transitioned to a female until the hormones and muscle become more equal? Or is the biological advantage a transwoman has over a biological permanent?

To not discuss this issue at all is not going to solve anything. There IS a difference between biological females and trans females--there just is--how long does that difference last is the question. That's what needs to be discussed.

Complex issue: Protect women's sports while welcoming trans athletes (usatoday.com)
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Is there any science that hormone therapy ever actually reduces male athletic performance to that of a female?

if so, link please.
 
dad4 said:
Is there any science that hormone therapy ever actually reduces male athletic performance to that of a female?

if so, link please.
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Which female? The high performing possibly high testosterone female Olympic athlete or your run of the mill average college female? Why is the test reduce performance to that of a female and not reduces performance to below that of a male (so the athlete can no longer compete with other biological males)? Does it matter if it’s hormone therapy or actual transition which eliminates the main source of testosterone?
 
dad4 said:
For major organizations, this works. Remember that the real goal is to sell TV ads and skim a bit off the top. From that angle, allowing a tiny fraction of men into the women’s competition is a small price to pay for being able to grab your share of the IOC bribes this year.
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Perspective is good.
 
dad4 said:
Is there any science that hormone therapy ever actually reduces male athletic performance to that of a female?

if so, link please.
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Ps don’t have these at my finger tips but there are a bunch of articles and studies that show both decrease prowess due to a loss in muscle mass since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. The question is how much.
 
Grace T. said:
Part of the problem with this issue is no one wants to acknowledge the other side has concerns. They just don’t want to hear it. So we get extreme positions like a transgendered person should be allowed to play at any level just by declaring they are female v no one should trample on women/girls rights and if that means someone else doesn’t have a place to play too bad.
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I am in agreement with you up until "if that means someone else doesn’t have a place". Are we seeing transgendered athletes being denied the opportunity to play in boys/mens sports?
 
kickingandscreaming said:
I am in agreement with you up until "if that means someone else doesn’t have a place". Are we seeing transgendered athletes being denied the opportunity to play in boys/mens sports?
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The complication here is the baseline. Caitlyn Jenner could almost certainly safely compete with the men’s sports. If my elder brother (a borderline college athlete) has transitioned in his prime he almost certainly couldn’t compete due to the loss of muscle mass. If dad 4 (from the description) or the mtf child I described were to transition in their prime doubt it’s safe. The messy part here is some ts are more passable than others...some look like biological women (my coz in her youth couldn’t be distinguished) and others don’t. It’s one aspect the t community doesn’t like to discuss.
 
Grace T. said:
Ps don’t have these at my finger tips but there are a bunch of articles and studies that show both decrease prowess due to a loss in muscle mass since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. The question is how much.
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The military studies quantify how much.

A significant advantage remains after 2 years. If it were a pill, it would be banned.
 
dad4 said:
The military studies quantify how much.

A significant advantage remains after 2 years. If it were a pill, it would be banned.
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Yeah but there’s also a substantial reduction relative to the men, which is the heart of the problem that there’s this third category of people that don’t fit anywhere. I suppose if we were really wanting to be “fair” one thing you could do is test everyone for testosterone levels. Even this though is imperfect: a. Some biological women would be caught in this with higher testosterone and be required to play in the middle tier, b. Feminists would hate that it would be a blatant admission of the physical/athletic inferiority of women to be relegated for the most part to the lowest tier, c. Some significant advantages (such as rib cage size and bone structure) would still be present in the ts so it’s not perfect and d. When it comes to d1 or higher athletics the women we are dealing with aren’t the norm (or more pejoratively “freaks”) relative to other women so it’s a significant burden to take on to protect this already privilege group. It would however have some benefits that ftm wouldn’t be required to shift until testosterone levels reach certain quantifiable levels. Still a whole lot of trouble for a handful of people (ts, female d1 athletes and higher) who are not the norm and special in and of themselves.
 
Grace T. said:
Yeah but there’s also a substantial reduction relative to the men, which is the heart of the problem that there’s this third category of people that don’t fit anywhere. I suppose if we were really wanting to be “fair” one thing you could do is test everyone for testosterone levels. Even this though is imperfect: a. Some biological women would be caught in this with higher testosterone and be required to play in the middle tier, b. Feminists would hate that it would be a blatant admission of the physical/athletic inferiority of women to be relegated for the most part to the lowest tier, c. Some significant advantages (such as rib cage size and bone structure) would still be present in the ts so it’s not perfect and d. When it comes to d1 or higher athletics the women we are dealing with aren’t the norm (or more pejoratively “freaks”) relative to other women so it’s a significant burden to take on to protect this already privilege group. It would however have some benefits that ftm wouldn’t be required to shift until testosterone levels reach certain quantifiable levels. Still a whole lot of trouble for a handful of people (ts, female d1 athletes and higher) who are not the norm and special in and of themselves.
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You are asking for medicine which does not exist. There is no treatment which lowers male athletic performance to a point comparable to female athletic performance. Even if one did exist, I have serious doubts about using sports as a lever to push people into medical treatment.

If there were a pill that raised an average woman athlete’s performance to the level of an average mtf athlete’s performance, would it be legal for use in competition? Such a pill would be banned as a performance enhancing drug.
 
met61 said:
Ok sure - arbitrary, subjective, selective, slippery slopes, all of the above and beyond.

Bottom line, all people who suffer from gender dysphoria (and all other DSM-V listed psychiatric disorders) have a right to live as they choose, so long as they do not trample over the rights of others in the process.

Currently, transgender policies are trampling over the rights of girls / women.
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Such a clueless sense of entitlement that you claim you have a “right” to force a sports governing body to exclude people from eligibility. Transgender people have every right to participate in a sport in which the governing body has said they are eligible. Your little princess also has that same “right” to participate. What you want - to force sports governing bodies to exclude athletes who scare you from participating in a sport that aligns with their gender identity - is not a right at all.

The idea that transgender people are trampling over the rights of those who aren’t is ludicrous and backwards. Rational people realize how unimportant that kiddie soccer game with the transgender player on the other team was. How unimportant the HS race of slow people in CT was. Most sports governing bodies realize how unimportant these things are compared to the important goal of eliminating the gender dysphoria that people like you exacerbate in transgender individuals with constant whining about how girls sports is being “eviscerated” by policies that have been around for a decade or more in many instances, and with no measurable negative impact on girls or womens sports. In the end, the “fairness” you demand just isn’t important because kiddie sports aren’t important compared to the societal benefit of allowing transgender athletic participation. It’s amazing how the transphobic crowd says that youth sports is all about building character, self-esteem and fitness, not wins and losses, right up until a transgender athlete participates. Then all those things are suddenly not important at all compared to winning a youth soccer game or race, so f**k those transgender kids.

If you want fairness, start treating transgender people with dignity and respect, instead of becoming hysterical when some bigot dog whistles that girls and women’s sports is being eviscerated by an executive order that does nothing to require or regulate transgender participation in sports.
 
EOTL said:
Such a clueless sense of entitlement that you claim you have a “right” to force a sports governing body to exclude people from eligibility. Transgender people have every right to participate in a sport in which the governing body has said they are eligible. Your little princess also has that same “right” to participate. What you want - to force sports governing bodies to exclude athletes who scare you from participating in a sport that aligns with their gender identity - is not a right at all.

The idea that transgender people are trampling over the rights of those who aren’t is ludicrous and backwards. Rational people realize how unimportant that kiddie soccer game with the transgender player on the other team was. How unimportant the HS race of slow people in CT was. Most sports governing bodies realize how unimportant these things are compared to the important goal of eliminating the gender dysphoria that people like you exacerbate in transgender individuals with constant whining about how girls sports is being “eviscerated” by policies that have been around for a decade or more in many instances, and with no measurable negative impact on girls or womens sports. In the end, the “fairness” you demand just isn’t important because kiddie sports aren’t important compared to the societal benefit of allowing transgender athletic participation. It’s amazing how the transphobic crowd says that youth sports is all about building character, self-esteem and fitness, not wins and losses, right up until a transgender athlete participates. Then all those things are suddenly not important at all compared to winning a youth soccer game or race, so f**k those transgender kids.

If you want fairness, start treating transgender people with dignity and respect, instead of becoming hysterical when some bigot dog whistles that girls and women’s sports is being eviscerated by an executive order that does nothing to require or regulate transgender participation in sports.
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I really (not really) feel bad that you produce such a high word count of garbage that virtually no one will read.
 
dad4 said:
You are asking for medicine which does not exist. There is no treatment which lowers male athletic performance to a point comparable to female athletic performance. Even if one did exist, I have serious doubts about using sports as a lever to push people into medical treatment.

If there were a pill that raised an average woman athlete’s performance to the level of an average mtf athlete’s performance, would it be legal for use in competition? Such a pill would be banned as a performance enhancing drug.
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No I’m not. I’m saying the condition reduces their ability to compete against men, but doesn’t reduce it sufficiently to the level of the average (or even above average) woman so there are no good choices for these people (other than “too bad, so sad” you made your choice, or the creation of a middle tier into which beta males could opt in and some high performing females would be forced in). So what other than “too bad so sad” is to be done. I also note “too bad so sad” has the opposite effect that your dds would also have to compete against ftm who are taking testosterone, a performance enhancing drug.
 
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