Quick offside question

watfly said:
Actually there is. After "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG in 2005, IFAB issued advice to the application of the law that stated:

"If an opponent becomes involved in the play and if, in the opinion of the referee, there is potential for physical contact, the player in the offside position shall be penalised for interfering with an opponent."

https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/new...-the-field-application-law-offside-99799.html
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I would agree with you if it was 2005 or 2006, but 2005 is ancient history. There have been numerous changes since 2005 and that unfortunately does not apply to the 2018/2019 LOTG. It would be nice to have in there, but there would be too much gray area for referees to determine and interpret what "potential for physical contact" means. I remember those years and remember some crazy calls that the AR or CR would use the explanation of "I thought there was going to be contact between the players." I even saw an AR raise the flag and use that excuse when the player and keeper were 50 yards apart. Definitely do not want to go back to those days.
 
baldref said:
or 85+
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Yes, unfortunately 65+ years old on olders games that they should not be on. Don't even get me started on referees working games beyond their physical abilities. There is nothing I hate more than seeing an older slower referee on an olders game and they cannot even keep up as an AR with the last defender. Face reality old guys and move down to the ages that you can keep up. Those 13 year old and younger players would love to have a good experienced referee on their games. Plus those younger kids are fun to referee and they do not usually yell at you.
 
Surfref said:
Yes, unfortunately 65+ years old on olders games that they should not be on. Don't even get me started on referees working games beyond their physical abilities. There is nothing I hate more than seeing an older slower referee on an olders game and they cannot even keep up as an AR with the last defender. Face reality old guys and move down to the ages that you can keep up. Those 13 year old and younger players would love to have a good experienced referee on their games. Plus those younger kids are fun to referee and they do not usually yell at you.
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oh... so you're saying it's time for me to move on. the truth hurts you know.....
 
Agreed on refs refereeing the age they can physically manage. I took picture of AR this weekend who was constantly not in position. He was likely over 70 and knew he couldn't sprint down the line, so stayed near the penalty area most of the time. Time to do the 7v7's...
 
Surfref said:
I would agree with you if it was 2005 or 2006, but 2005 is ancient history. There have been numerous changes since 2005 and that unfortunately does not apply to the 2018/2019 LOTG. It would be nice to have in there, but there would be too much gray area for referees to determine and interpret what "potential for physical contact" means. I remember those years and remember some crazy calls that the AR or CR would use the explanation of "I thought there was going to be contact between the players." I even saw an AR raise the flag and use that excuse when the player and keeper were 50 yards apart. Definitely do not want to go back to those days.
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I actually posed the question to Dan Healdman (of Ask a Soccer Referee) if that advice from the 2005 circular still applied. His response was the following:

"Since it has never been concretely replaced or reinterpreted by either IFAB or USSF, yes. This is a general principle in considering what remains in the Law based on earlier, uncontroverted circulars or memoranda, despite intervening new (and sometimes greatly revised) editions of the Laws of the Game."

Regardless, I think we can all agree that this call should never be made from 50 yards out.
 
watfly said:
I actually posed the question to Dan Healdman (of Ask a Soccer Referee) if that advice from the 2005 circular still applied. His response was the following:

"Since it has never been concretely replaced or reinterpreted by either IFAB or USSF, yes. This is a general principle in considering what remains in the Law based on earlier, uncontroverted circulars or memoranda, despite intervening new (and sometimes greatly revised) editions of the Laws of the Game."

Regardless, I think we can all agree that this call should never be made from 50 yards out.
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Nope, just wait until [right before] a collision with keeper in a little kids game, then extend flag high as players go down in a crumple. Just so you get it right.

And be sure to tell the coach and kid's parents that you had to make sure the player didn't peel off at the last moment and avoid an offside call.
 
coachrefparent said:
Nope, just wait until [right before] a collision with keeper in a little kids game, then extend flag high as players go down in a crumple. Just so you get it right.

And be sure to tell the coach and kid's parents that you had to make sure the player didn't peel off at the last moment and avoid an offside call.
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Referee training tonight. The offside question came up of when to raise the flag and where the restart is. The Ex-national Referee, National Assessor, and Instructor said we have to wait until the player plays the ball or interferes with play, and the restart is where the ball was played. A bunch of crusty old refs bitched about it and the instructor told them they need to read the LOTG and update to the new Law 11 interpretations. It was nice to hear him say that coaches and players know about the changes and have set plays to exploit those changes, so if they know them then the Referee better know them.

A lot of coaches don’t even know there was a change to Law 11 a couple years ago and almost all parents don’t know. Parents yell at referees all the time about stuff the parents a grossly misinformed about. I and most referees just ignore them.
 
Surfref said:
Referee training tonight. The offside question came up of when to raise the flag and where the restart is. The Ex-national Referee, National Assessor, and Instructor said we have to wait until the player plays the ball or interferes with play, and the restart is where the ball was played. A bunch of crusty old refs bitched about it and the instructor told them they need to read the LOTG and update to the new Law 11 interpretations. It was nice to hear him say that coaches and players know about the changes and have set plays to exploit those changes, so if they know them then the Referee better know them.

A lot of coaches don’t even know there was a change to Law 11 a couple years ago and almost all parents don’t know. Parents yell at referees all the time about stuff the parents a grossly misinformed about. I and most referees just ignore them.
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Let's ignore for the fact that right after "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG, IFAB issued direct (and since unrevised) guidance that if there was potential for contact (in the ref's opinion) that the player shall be penalized for an offside offense. I don't think anyone is disputing that in most cases the player has to touch the ball, however, there are exceptions of which this is one.

Let's instead look at this from a purely logical standpoint (although I don't think I can explain it better than Coachrefparent's illustration). It's hard to imagine that IFAB would design the Laws to preserve a rarely used gimmick play over the safety of the keeper or another player. That just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
 
watfly said:
Let's ignore for the fact that right after "touching the ball" was added to the LOTG, IFAB issued direct (and since unrevised) guidance that if there was potential for contact (in the ref's opinion) that the player shall be penalized for an offside offense. I don't think anyone is disputing that in most cases the player has to touch the ball, however, there are exceptions of which this is one.

Let's instead look at this from a purely logical standpoint (although I don't think I can explain it better than Coachrefparent's illustration). It's hard to imagine that IFAB would design the Laws to preserve a rarely used gimmick play over the safety of the keeper or another player. That just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
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I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender. If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside.

Referees need to use some common sense. What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game. If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball. A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured. A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.

The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think. Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11. I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.
 
Surfref said:
I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender. If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside.

Referees need to use some common sense. What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game. If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball. A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured. A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.
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Makes complete sense to me.
 
I don't want to sound dismissive of injuries, but raising the flag early to stop a potential collision is not the end all be all. A lot of times, offside calls hinge on a few millimeters and milliseconds. A 50/50 ball with the keeper could easily happen when the player is ONside. And there is no law that prohibits a 50/50 challenge, so long as it is not careless.

We shouldn't be so quick to stop a possible attack just because we are trying to prevent something that is expected, legal, part of natural play, and prevalent in modern soccer.
 
Surfref said:
I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender. If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside.

Referees need to use some common sense. What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game. If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball. A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured. A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.

The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think. Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11. I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.
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Now, we're talking: know the laws, know how to call offside, but don't throw common sense out when dealing with youth soccer players.
 
Surfref said:
I guess the problem I have is that I have seen far to many refs raising the flag far too early when the ball is still 20 yards from the keeper and 10 yards in front of the offside player that could stop and not be called for an infraction, or the ball is 20 yards in front of the offside player and the keeper will clearly get there first. Too many refs are still stopping with the last defender and raising the flag far too early and indicating the restart is even with the last defender. If the offside player and keeper are 5 yards apart and moving at top speed, I would whistle for offside.

Referees need to use some common sense. What I would call in a 9v9 game I would probably not call in a B17 game. If I have an offside G16 player going after a ball headed toward the keeper and her teammate is running into the play, I am not going to whistle for offside until the offside player is within playing distance of the ball. A 16 y/o has far more control of their body and can avoid that keeper and knows that contact with the keeper will more than likely get her carded and injured. A 10 y/o does not have that control or experience so the whistle will get blown earlier.

The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think. Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11. I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.
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I remember when the offside trap used to work the other way - the sweeper would take a couple of steps far enough to put the opposing striker offside just before the kick was taken. Having a set play that depends on cooperation and fore-knowledge of the officials seems a little dirty to me.
 
Surfref said:
The "rarely used gimmick play" you speak of is not as rare as you think. Over the first two weeks of league I have worked 18 games (12 boys games (3 B10 and 9 B15-19) and 6 girls games (G14-19)) and seen 7 teams (6 boys and 1 girls) use some type of Offside plays and some have been very effective and resulted in shots on goal or goals. All seven teams were Tier 1 teams and played some good soccer. Three of the coaches gave the referee crew a heads up prior to the game that they had set Offside plays and to please not flag the players early and follow the changes to Law 11. I also had at least a dozen coaches during this past summer's tournaments tell me they had set offide plays, so we (refs) did not flag the players too early.
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I've been seeing this more and more as well. We try to drill into our players that a flag up doesn't mean to stop, and they need to continue to watch/engage players who were not in offside position ("OSP") when played until whistle is blown.

Anyone have any links to youtube showing this "trick" where you try to get defenders to stop playing with a blatantly OSP player?
 
espola said:
I remember when the offside trap used to work the other way - the sweeper would take a couple of steps far enough to put the opposing striker offside just before the kick was taken. Having a set play that depends on cooperation and fore-knowledge of the officials seems a little dirty to me.
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Why is it dirty? There is no violation of the LOTG. Is it dirty when players do not automatically give 10 yards on a free kick? The LOTG state that players are to give distance, but most don’t. It is all just gamesmanship and tactics.
 
coachrefparent said:
I've been seeing this more and more as well. We try to drill into our players that a flag up doesn't mean to stop, and they need to continue to watch/engage players who were not in offside position ("OSP") when played until whistle is blown.

Anyone have any links to youtube showing this "trick" where you try to get defenders to stop playing with a blatantly OSP player?
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The 1st and 9th (Messi) are the best. There is another really good one that used to be on the PRO site, but I will have to look for it.
 
Surfref said:
The 1st and 9th (Messi) are the best. There is another really good one that used to be on the PRO site, but I will have to look for it.
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Doesn't seem to be germane to the discussion about an offside player feinting a play, but not playing the ball.
 
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