2016-17 D1 Women's soccer thread!!!

offthecrossbar said:
the more talent you the higher probability of winning.
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Thanks Captain Obvious. Nobody has said talent doesn't matter. You just don't get the value of role players, and that's cool. You clearly don't want to hear it. But I did have to laugh at your comment about the NBA salary cap preventing all-star teams. Warriors and Heat and Cavs being pretty darn close. USA basketball had to totally rethink player selection when Coach K and Jerry Colangelo got involved to rescue the disaster that had become our national team. Those all stars got smoked by FAR lesser talent because they, like you, underestimated role players and chemistry. Coach K has said many times that it isn't enough to pick the 10-15 most talented guys, that you need pieces that fit, role players and glue guys.
 
Mystery Train said:
Thanks Captain Obvious. Nobody has said talent doesn't matter. You just don't get the value of role players, and that's cool. You clearly don't want to hear it. But I did have to laugh at your comment about the NBA salary cap preventing all-star teams. Warriors and Heat and Cavs being pretty darn close. USA basketball had to totally rethink player selection when Coach K and Jerry Colangelo got involved to rescue the disaster that had become our national team. Those all stars got smoked by FAR lesser talent because they, like you, underestimated role players and chemistry. Coach K has said many times that it isn't enough to pick the 10-15 most talented guys, that you need pieces that fit, role players and glue guys.
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I already addressed the Warriors and how they got Durant. Reread: if their wasn't a salary cap and luxury cap; Lebron, Melo, Paul and Wade would be playing together. Instead of Lebron and Irving.

Happy to read you agree with me again. The more talent you have with a winning coach and the players buying into the philosophy will you have a winning team. It's not like Coach K picked Kobe and Lebron and added 10 additional 12th man roster players into the fold. He picked ALL-STAR players and is no different than his Duke teams recruiting blue chippers every year.

I will take Kentucky in basketball every year and you can have Marquette and lets see who wins more.
 
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.[1]
 
Crossbar, you may not agree with my point, but Coach K does:

(from an interview in 2012)- " I asked Coach K how he felt when Colangelo offered him the job. “I wanted to jump through the phone I was so excited,” he said. “Jerry and I started talking immediately about how to change the culture of this team. We weren’t going to simply be another ad-hoc collection of All-Stars. We needed role players that could subsume their superstar egos."
 
Mystery Train said:
Crossbar, you may not agree with my point, but Coach K does:

(from an interview in 2012)- " I asked Coach K how he felt when Colangelo offered him the job. “I wanted to jump through the phone I was so excited,” he said. “Jerry and I started talking immediately about how to change the culture of this team. We weren’t going to simply be another ad-hoc collection of All-Stars. We needed role players that could subsume their superstar egos."
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Exactly, All-Star players who buy into his team concept. If not mistaken, Kobe didn't play for team USA team until Coach K. He always wanted to play for him and never got to when he skipped college.
 
Mystery Train said:
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.[1]
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Coach and player experience being equal. A more talented team will beat a lesser talented team more often than not. Unless, you are given a point spread...haha!
 
offthecrossbar said:
I think Stanford gets first dibs, but several YNT players probably don't have the required minimum GPA to get pushed through admissions. Then commit to other elite soccer programs. Andy Sullivan, Tierna Davidson, Amack, Campbell, Dibiasi and Xiao aren't chopped liver.
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113 national championships for UCLA, 109 for Stanford, top 2 in the country for all sports. I get the feeling kids are choosing these two schools pretty equally. When choosing between UCLA and Stanford, I get the feeling the campus, the weather, if you like NorCal or SoCal better, do you want to be close or far away from family, etc. come into play. This is your new home for 4-5 years. First, if both schools want you, pat yourself on the back you must be an amazing player. Second, where do you want to spend your free time? I can't imagine being anywhere except here in the south, but just as easy I can see kids choosing to live up north as well. You might also notice the position you play is already loaded, so you choose the other school. Or one of the two schools has a major that is very strong so you choose that. Don't see how any kid could go wrong choosing either school.
 
offthecrossbar said:
Coach and player experience being equal. A more talented team will beat a lesser talented team more often than not. Unless, you are given a point spread...haha!
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Compare the rosters of this year's Olympic basketball team to that of the 2004 team that placed third behind Greece and Italy. LeBron, Iverson, Tim Duncan, D Wade, Marbury, Melo, Stoudemire...no role players, no chemistry. Great coach, all the experience necessary, beaten by lesser talent. Draymond Green, role player. Harrison Barnes, role player. Kyle Lowry, role player. Deandre Jordan and Demarcus Cousins, ditch diggers. Talented ditch diggers and role players, yes. But my point stands. Do you disagree with the statement that championship teams need to have chemistry and role players as well as talent?
 
Mystery Train said:
Compare the rosters of this year's Olympic basketball team to that of the 2004 team that placed third behind Greece and Italy. LeBron, Iverson, Tim Duncan, D Wade, Marbury, Melo, Stoudemire...no role players, no chemistry. Great coach, all the experience necessary, beaten by lesser talent. Draymond Green, role player. Harrison Barnes, role player. Kyle Lowry, role player. Deandre Jordan and Demarcus Cousins, ditch diggers. Talented ditch diggers and role players, yes. But my point stands. Do you disagree with the statement that championship teams need to have chemistry and role players as well as talent?
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Going to have to agree to disagree. Coach K still had all All-Stars. The difference is Coach k was able to get the players to play as a team and accept their role. Don't forget, team USA this past Olympics had a few close games, because the following players decided to skip or were injured this year. Westbrook, Chris Paul, Curry, John Wall, Harden, Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, Aldridge and Lebron. Coach K didn't pass on those players.
 
M Train, let me know when Coach K picks 2 Hall of Famers like Lebron and Westbrook and surrounds them with a bunch of NBA 12 man bench players who are true role players and ditch diggers. Would love to see them try and win an Olympics with that line-up.

It reflects your post of 2 A+ players and a bunch of ditch diggers and role players who play as a team and can run off a team of YNT players.
 
offthecrossbar said:
Going to have to agree to disagree.
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Well ok then. So you don't value role players or team chemistry as much as I do. Fair enough. My bias towards emphasizing fit and chemistry over raw talent comes from 15 years of hiring and firing and building teams in companies. In general, I'd rather hire a guy with an associates' degree who has a great attitude, work ethic, ability to learn quickly and first rate communication skills than a "talented" ivy league grad who pisses everyone off and is constantly 'misunderstood' and involved in ego battles. I've seen so many of those types crash and burn in team settings that I never miss a chance to get on my soapbox about how overrated "pure talent" is.
 
Mystery Train said:
Well ok then. So you don't value role players or team chemistry as much as I do. Fair enough. My bias towards emphasizing fit and chemistry over raw talent comes from 15 years of hiring and firing and building teams in companies. In general, I'd rather hire a guy with an associates' degree who has a great attitude, work ethic, ability to learn quickly and first rate communication skills than a "talented" ivy league grad who pisses everyone off and is constantly 'misunderstood' and involved in ego battles. I've seen so many of those types crash and burn in team settings that I never miss a chance to get on my soapbox about how overrated "pure talent" is.
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In sports like B-Ball, I will pick the best 12 players in their positions and hire Pop to coach them.
 
offthecrossbar said:
It reflects your post of 2 A+ players and a bunch of ditch diggers and role players who play as a team and can run off a team of YNT players.
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I think maybe you misunderstand that qualifying a player as a "ditch digger" or "role player" = no talent. There are many of these types of players who are extremely talented at the one job they do. Dennis Rodman was the most talented "ditch digger" ever, and he was an instrumental part of one of the greatest basketball teams ever. National teams in all sports are often collections of #1 lead players who aren't used to (or good at) playing second fiddle supporting roles.
 
offthecrossbar said:
In sports like B-Ball, I will pick the best 12 players in their positions and hire Pop to coach them.
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I suppose if you want to argue about talent over chemistry in a fantasy world, then I can't deny you that if you picked the 12 best players in the world and had Gregg Poppovich coaching then you'd certainly win a lot of games. But Pop is the king of building teams with chemistry (you know, that thing you don't seem to value). Read this interview with him. He talks about looking for players with a sense of humor and work ethic. It's a great read, and it is ALL about chemistry: http://hoopshype.com/2015/10/13/forces-of-character-a-conversation-with-gregg-popovich/
 
Mystery Train said:
I suppose if you want to argue about talent over chemistry in a fantasy world, then I can't deny you that if you picked the 12 best players in the world and had Gregg Poppovich coaching then you'd certainly win a lot of games. But Pop is the king of building teams with chemistry (you know, that thing you don't seem to value). Read this interview with him. He talks about looking for players with a sense of humor and work ethic. It's a great read, and it is ALL about chemistry: http://hoopshype.com/2015/10/13/forces-of-character-a-conversation-with-gregg-popovich/
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Wrong, I do believe in team chemistry and role players. That's I want the best coach to get the players to buy into the team concept. Why do you think I posted Saban at Alabama and Calipari at Kentucky.

In your original post at the end you posted it's not about the players resume. I say it is and where a great coach comes in to shape the team as one unit.
 
Mystery Train said:
Glad you agree with me. ;)

Like I said, I've got a personal soapbox on the subject of talent and resumes. It's kind of my thing.
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I think you pivoted from your opening post though. Now you're saying give me the best players also as long as the best players play as a team aka know their role vs 2 A+ players with role players and ditch diggers running a YNT of the pitch.

Far cry from comparing Colorado to a UCLA or Stanford team full of Youth National players.
 
Better to have an all-star that is willing to be a roll player. The best defensive player is probably an all-star, the best rebounder, all-star. Find some of those guys that will play with the MVP types and you are all set. Nothing says an All-Star can't be a roll player as well.
 
socalkdg said:
Better to have an all-star that is willing to be a roll player. The best defensive player is probably an all-star, the best rebounder, all-star. Find some of those guys that will play with the MVP types and you are all set. Nothing says an All-Star can't be a roll player as well.
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And is why I posted give me the best players in their position and I will get a great coach to have them play as a team.

Elite players willl beat lesser talented players more often than not.
 
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