World Cup 2018 thread
- Thread starter espola
- Start date
younothat
PREMIER
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you on this one. I was almost in tears with how proud I was of Geiger. I was worried going into half time, but he managed what was easily the hardest game to ref this WC beautifully. 120 minutes, no injuries, no reds, every match critical incident was spot on. And FIFA apparently agrees as he has gone on and will probably get a Semi-final CTR.
If Geiger gave that early red or had an early double yellow because he started giving out cautions by the book. Then the Columbians, who knew they were the underdogs, would have lost faith in their ability to compete with the English and then the leg breaking tackles would have begun.
Nonsense.
I read the article. It said that streaming viewers were not counted.
Anyone know what that means? I have YouTubeTV and have watched the games on fox, fs1 using YouTubeTV. Many of of friends are also using this, Sling or Fubo to watch games.
And a 1 million viewer decline isn’t that bad considering how many games are played in the early hours.
smellycleats
SILVER ELITE
Why can’t a card be given for unsportsman-like conduct? Or delay of game? Would they have to write a new rule to do that or can they use existing rules on the books? If refs started calling those and giving penalties maybe it would be a relief to players and they could just play the game and not worry that they’re doing their team a disservice by not flopping when everyone else is. It’s why I prefer watching women play. There is so much less of that nonsense.
The rules are on the books. FIFA has made it clear to the referees that they should ignore the rules and put up with whatever nonsense the players produce rather than send someone off.
I'm old enough to remember the failure of NASL in the 60's - at least partially due to players suffering "soccer injuries" turning people off. There have been a couple of good, spirited games played by teams that actually played the game. Why doesn't FIFA instruct the referees to produce that kind of game?
younothat
PREMIER
1 Brazil vs. 2 Belgium was a good battle. The coaching, tactics, and team work really payed off for Belgium, the keeping and leadership by Courtois was excellent, those counterattacks, Lukaku was beastly once again.
Thierry Henry assistant coach for Belgium could be a interesting asset & sidebar vs France
Thierry Henry assistant coach for Belgium could be a interesting asset & sidebar vs France
There are a lot of Geiger apologists, mostly Americans, that share your same opinion. They also point to the fact that FIFA had instructed the refs to set a high bar for issuing cards and that the game ended with 11v11. Admittedly the game settled down in extra time but was dicey all the way through regular time. To say that if a red card was given that leg breaking fouls would start is pure speculation and isn't an excuse not to enforce the LOTG. Spare me any rationalization that its a nuanced call, he clearly drove his head into the chin of any opponent with force and intent. Of course Geiger didn't know that because he didn't review the play and instead passed off responsibility to the VAR official. That's actually my biggest beef with how it was handled, not the fact that it was only a yellow.
More troublesome to me is his handling of the mass confrontation after the penalty call. He let that situation get out of control and delay the game significantly. He was clearly bumped intentionally by at least one Columbian player and should have shown a yellow card. By not doing so he sent the message that he wasn't in charge of the match. To me he was more concerned with not influencing the outcome of the game by sending someone off then he was was with properly managing the game.
Another concern is the precedent that the officiating of the game set. So now mass confrontations with intentional contact to the ref may be OK? Intentional head blows with force may no longer be red cards? I think that's heading in the wrong direction.
Now this is in now way meant to absolve Columbia, and to some extent, England of their actions. It was a very difficult match to referee, no doubt, but I can't rave about Geiger's performance, not awful, but a grade of C at best. I appreciate that in some respects Geiger may have been just following the directives of his boss FIFA in setting a high bar for cards. I understand what FIFA is trying to accomplish but in my mind they approached it the wrong way. If they were concerned about cards they should have increased the yellow card limit to 3, that way it doesn't change the way the game is called on the pitch and players are more responsible for their own behavior.
On another note, I propose a new rule...for every body roll in excess of one after you are "fouled" is a one minute penalty per roll in a "sin bin".
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
Okay, I point to the 2010 WC finals as an example of where giving early cards did not lower the temperature of the match, but escalated it. Cards are tools for a referee to manage the game, you shouldn't just give cards because a book insists that you do. I've seen so many games by amatuer refs escalate for no reason just because the referee had a low threshold for cards. I think this psych study summarizes my point. thouroughly: http://www.psychref.org/2018/01/the-referee-as-game-manager.html#.Wz_X0tVKgdU
The better the referee becomes, the more he sees himself as a game manager instead of strict law enforcer.
VAR did not necessarily tell him to issue yellow, we don't know, but it could have just as easily been the 4th or AR1. Just because he touched his ear does not mean he talked to VAR. Secondly on this point, there was already too much chaos when Geiger was present, can you imagine what would have happened if Geiger would have left the field in that instance to check VAR. I think there was little to be gained by going to VAR and then giving a red, there was barely any force and there is enough doubt about the head and neck muscles being used as a tool to hold off the attacker in the wall as opposed to a weapon like Zidane. England committed a similar "headbutt" with similar force that Geiger actually saw himself and he was consistent and issued the yellow.
As for dissent, We as referee's are expected to be able to tolerate a certain amount of abuse. Sure, in the laws it wants automatic yellow for dissent and red for verbal abuse. But assignors roll their ayes when they see the same reports by the same referees about the same abuse that every other referee just absorbs. It looks bad if we are so thin skinned that we go and cry to the rule book and tattle tale on those mean players and coaches. I wish the abuse didn't happen, but cards wont stop it, it is a systematic problem that needs to be addressed from the top.
Effectively deciding a game just because your feelings were hurt does little justice to the game. You will look bad, rule book be damned. You see the overreaction to that one MLS referee that gave two yellows in 30 seconds. One for not respecting the distance, the other for dissent. That game was decided in a moment when the ball wasn't even in play. The referee was completely justified in both cards by the book, but everyone (including MLS) seemed to vilify that ref for being weak.
I like to think of referees this way. We are not the heroes the players deserve, we are the heroes the players need.
Mystery Train
GOLD
I agree 100%. The Colombia/England match he wasn't just absorbing normal levels of abuse and disrespect, they were mobbing him after almost every call, and he would engage them in discussions instead of taking charge. To me, he looked totally overwhelmed. Now, that being said, I think he did get just about every major call correct, so kudos for that. But as a spectator, the product of the game was generally awful. If you've ever played a pick-up basketball game in a rough neighborhood, you know that 50% of the time on the court is spent yelling and arguing over fouls instead of playing the damn game. That's because there isn't an official and every foul is disputed. That's what that match reminded me of, except there it was on global TV and there was ostensibly an official in charge. Except there really wasn't.
Now, I personally think it has less to do with Gieger's threshold for giving cards and more to do with his body language and communication skill. Nestor Pitana is the exact opposite. Dude's whole demeanor makes it known that he takes no BS from anyone.
Maybe Gieger needs to take notes from Pitana (and famed NFL ref, Ed Hocculi) and hit the gym and get yoked.
Philosophically I agree with some of your points, but some of your other points don't match the fact pattern of this game. For example, Geiger was pushed by a Columbian player(s). A player can't push a ref with impunity...refs know it, players know it, coaches know it, fans know it. This wouldn't be a matter of a Ref being thin skinned for issuing a card, if it was then where would you draw the line? Punching a ref? Somewhere way before punching a ref, a ref should be able to issue a card for contact. You have to draw a line somewhere (or not ignore the existing lines drawn by the LOTG) otherwise the application and the enforcement of the LOTG become entirely subjective, which creates unneeded conflict between refs, player and coaches. It also turns the management of the game into rule enforcement roulette.
I don't doubt that on limited occasions issuing cards can potentially make a situation worse, but that's no excuse for not issuing cards when a foul deserving of a card is committed. I could be wrong, but I doubt any governing body has every published guidance to that effect, its certainly not in the LOTG.
If one of my players ever pushed a ref, I would expect (and support) the referee to blow his whistle directly in his face, whip out a yellow card, and walk the player backward in the direction of his team bench, essentially daring the player to touch him again.
Definitelynotanotherref
SILVER ELITE
It is a fairly common practice to not give a card on the first card-able foul and instead try to make it clear that there will be no more fouls of this nature. Unless of course the foul is a "serious yellow" or "orange card" or is a cynical foul to stop a promising attack. Red is another matter.
As for the contact, chest bumping and other such shenanigans -yes, pushing - not really. But I understand your point. Some referees can intimidate with size, Mark can't. I know a referee in SD that once players start running towards him, he whips out the yellow card and says "okay, who wants one of these". It works for him, because he has the whole cocky arrogant persona about him, but it wouldn't work for Mark.
Mark doesn't have the physical profile that Mystery Train is referring to, maybe he could have, but at this stage in his life, not really realistic. Mark was a Math teacher, and his refereeing style can be referred to as "The Explainer". I look up to him because that is also my style. Sometimes, I/he can over-explain so it looks like we are losing control of the match, and I sometimes end up getting my own words used against me. I'm sure Mark has learned with years of experience how to avoid that.
The important part of this style was that he first, blew his whistle hard and motioned to give him some space, then he started talking 1 or 2 players, so naturally, in that loud stadium, the other players crowd around to listen. His face remained calm as he firmly stood by and explained his decisions. Of course players will ask "what about that other foul/incident" and he will address every issue as it comes up. Mark stood his ground, never once looked intimidated despite his size, and listened to every argument that was thrown at him. His body language was that the body contact had no effect on him and that he would be unmoved as he physically did not move. Making eye contact can sometimes be a sign of aggression, remember the one game with the (Uruguayan I think) referee who slowly pushed the player away but looked down as he did it. But Marks eye contact had no aggressive connotations.
The advantage of "The Explainer" is that the players feel that they were listened to and heard and they vent and let their frustrations out. They feel the referee is someone they can reason with and work with and possibly understand. The disadvantage is that people think they can manipulate "The Explainer", catch him in a double standard, or that he looks like he is losing control of the match because people aren't taking his word as law the moment he blows his whistle.
The other style, lets call him "The Macho Man" although I prefer "Napoleon". The advantage is that players don't want to mess with him, his calls are quickly accepted (although grudgingly) through fear or intimidation. The game has the potential to go smoothly with justice enacted swiftly and decisively. The referee appears in control because his decisions are his decisions and no one can change his mind. The disadvantage is that the referee appears inflexible and not empathetic. This causes the players frustrations to be pent up, or bottled as they feel like their side is not being heard. The perceived injustices may or may not stack up and the players may or may not lash out or attempt to enact justice themselves (girls especially).
I have seen both styles go horribly wrong, and there are still other styles, each one is unique and personal to each referee as he perfects his craft in his style. I have seen that Macho Man SD lay down the law and control those southern HS boys Varsity games where all they seem to want to do is fight each other every game and I have seen him get things thrown at him with players crying in frustration after the game.
Common perception seems to favor the "Macho Man" style. The local SD refs that are older seem to be partial to the Macho Man style when assigning the top level games, although IMHO, the top referee assignors that assign the pro leagues seem to prefer "The Explainer" style.
Surfref
PREMIER
The best refs don’t just have one style, but can smoothly move between styles as needed. The problem that I had with Geiger in that game is he took way too long explaining things to the players which allowed players on the fringe of the discussion to cause trouble. When I have seen him in prior games he was very efficient and there was very little time explaining things to the players and he got the game restated fairly quickly. I am used to seeing Geiger control the game similar to how Mazic controlled the Brazil vs Belgian game today. I have always been taught a brief explanation and get the game going so the players are concentrating on playing and not talking to the referee or causing problems with other players.
Mystery Train
GOLD
I thought Mazic was excellent, especially under the difficulties that come with reffing any game Neymar is in.
Sheriff Joe
DA
This world cup speaks well for the EPL.
I am tired of all the flopping, crying and just plain old dirty play from many of the south american teams and Mexico.
