When is enough, enough?

[Paul Spacey]

If all the 'new' leagues were put together primarily for the development of players, we likely wouldn't need to have this discussion. But most of them it seems are about $. After 6 years here, I find it incredible looking at the number of different leagues and competitions. Even more incredible is the usage of words like 'elite' and 'super' in reference to leagues and teams. I genuinely wonder if people see through that? Seriously.

There is certainly something to be said for keeping 90% of teams/players as 'local' as possible in terms of playing games. Sure, for the small number of teams and players who are operating on a national level in terms of their ability and playing standard, more travel is probably necessary. But for the rest, it's really just about $ and the prestige; "yeah, my son plays on an elite team in the super national championship league." He might only play 10 minutes each week but that doesn't matter.

How hard is it to put players first? I'm happy to stand accused of being an idealist but it's something I've always found easy. The first question I ask for every decision I make in terms of any team is, "does this best serve the players?" If the answer is no, it doesn't happen. I know there are plenty of clubs, coaches and parents with the same view but of course not everyone looks at it that way. We all should though, shouldn't we?

 

[Not_that_Serious]

I'm burned out for about a week and then back to the grind!!! LOL
Here's an interesting article by the way

http://goalnation.com/youth-soccer-european-vs-american-player-development/

Read the article. The guy is GPS, which is a Bayern Munich "affiliate" -which we know what that really is. Selling trips for European "experience". I know a couple coaches who take players to Europe to train - but they dont make money off the kids. He has a better perspective abiut training but isnt doing it solely benefit the kids

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

When you find one or two of those clubs, can you post em up here?

Haha well we are happy at our current club, fees well under 2k including uniforms and have a great professional coach. Nothing is perfect though!

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

If all the 'new' leagues were put together primarily for the development of players, we likely wouldn't need to have this discussion. But most of them it seems are about $. After 6 years here, I find it incredible looking at the number of different leagues and competitions. Even more incredible is the usage of words like 'elite' and 'super' in reference to leagues and teams. I genuinely wonder if people see through that? Seriously.

There is certainly something to be said for keeping 90% of teams/players as 'local' as possible in terms of playing games. Sure, for the small number of teams and players who are operating on a national level in terms of their ability and playing standard, more travel is probably necessary. But for the rest, it's really just about $ and the prestige; "yeah, my son plays on an elite team in the super national championship league." He might only play 10 minutes each week but that doesn't matter.

How hard is it to put players first? I'm happy to stand accused of being an idealist but it's something I've always found easy. The first question I ask for every decision I make in terms of any team is, "does this best serve the players?" If the answer is no, it doesn't happen. I know there are plenty of clubs, coaches and parents with the same view but of course not everyone looks at it that way. We all should though, shouldn't we?

Yes exactly my view. For us in South Orange County, there should be no reason to play any games outside of this region. There are hundreds of kids playing in dozens and dozens of teams who could all be playing each other. But as you said, everyone has to be in an 'elite' league or near the top. Better to have multiple leagues so more people can be known as the top teams in their circuit.

Get all the clubs together in the same gaming circuit, so everyone knows where their kid is at and what level their kid should be playing in. This will calm everyone down once they realise there are 100+ kids ahead of their kid, rather than telling everyone they are flight 1 or flight 2 (but be flight 1 next year) and then into the DA system, which we all know wont happen for the vast majority of these kids. At least in the 7v7 and 9v9 leagues, keep it fun whilst also being competitive (yes its possible) and then when things get to 11v11 then it starts to get serious and teams can travel slightly further if they are talented and there is no competition for them in South OC. That should be the only reason to travel a great distance.

 

[mirage]

For your college playing son - Did he find the competition in CRL and NPL much different than Flight 1/Premier?
Was DA a different level? (Sounds like he was playing after DA for boys had been around for a few years).

The short answer is yes.

Thing to recognize is that CRL require qualifying results (either how they finish prior season National Cup or via qualifying playin tournament). Also, both SCDSL and CSL's top tier is only a partial set, meaning that at CRL, you'll get the combined higher level teams from both leagues in a single gaming circuit - like how it used to be at CSL pre SCDSL split of clubs.

NPL not so much as they are function of the clubs that sign up. Not much different than SCDSL, except that when my older kid played NPL, it was pre DA age then (U13) and the teams were more like the CRL mix than today. I believe NPL is not all that meaningful other than the fact that it has its own national championship.

DA is all over the place. At the older ages, about the half of DA teams (e.g., MLS DA's and few others) are head and shoulders above the rest. The bottom 1/3 of DA teams is on par with Flt1/Premier teams and some will handle those bottom DA teams easily.

At the upper end of DA teams, they are simply in a another level. An example is Portland Timbers (other MLS DA's are alike) where all but a single handful is from Oregon. Almost the entire roster is imported from all over the country and some from outside of the country. They also have their USL contracted players play in DA once the USL season is over and they qualify based on the birth year. In particular, this season, Timbers DA had a former FCGS players that signed Timbers II USL contract, and actually played in few of their MLS games play in their 99/00 DA team.

So you can see that as the players get older, the gap widens between the local league and others.

 

[3JMommy]

Haha well we are happy at our current club, fees well under 2k including uniforms and have a great professional coach. Nothing is perfect though!

Yeah--same, but finding a club/coach that supports the "teacher" mentality of helping kids learn and develop in the best environment possible is not always an achievable goal for some. It's unfortunate that it has come to that with youth sports.

 

[Not_that_Serious]

The short answer is yes.

Thing to recognize is that CRL require qualifying results (either how they finish prior season National Cup or via qualifying playin tournament). Also, both SCDSL and CSL's top tier is only a partial set, meaning that at CRL, you'll get the combined higher level teams from both leagues in a single gaming circuit - like how it used to be at CSL pre SCDSL split of clubs.

NPL not so much as they are function of the clubs that sign up. Not much different than SCDSL, except that when my older kid played NPL, it was pre DA age then (U13) and the teams were more like the CRL mix than today. I believe NPL is not all that meaningful other than the fact that it has its own national championship.

DA is all over the place. At the older ages, about the half of DA teams (e.g., MLS DA's and few others) are head and shoulders above the rest. The bottom 1/3 of DA teams is on par with Flt1/Premier teams and some will handle those bottom DA teams easily.

At the upper end of DA teams, they are simply in a another level. An example is Portland Timbers (other MLS DA's are alike) where all but a single handful is from Oregon. Almost the entire roster is imported from all over the country and some from outside of the country. They also have their USL contracted players play in DA once the USL season is over and they qualify based on the birth year. In particular, this season, Timbers DA had a former FCGS players that signed Timbers II USL contract, and actually played in few of their MLS games play in their 99/00 DA team.

So you can see that as the players get older, the gap widens between the local league and others.

For this reason alone DA should be MLS teams only. They can have as many teams they can get - as long as they fit the bill. As mentioned in articles MLS (via US Soccer) uses club system (parents money, clubs, even odp) to develop kids to point where an MLS can come in and bring them in - upper talent/parents now more saavy. This would shut down a ton of issues - then again big clubs will probably just come up with some shiny new circuit to market.

 

[coachsamy]

LOL, thanks cs. No coolaid here. I can honestly tell you that there are real legit players on some DA teams and there are plenty of mediocre players too.

My older kid played DA, CRL, NPL, Flight 1, Premier at different times in his club soccer life and now playing in college. So when I made the generalized statement with lots of sarcasm, clearly it was lost in the writing....

The only serious part of the post was that real competitive players do seek more competition and could care less winning against lesser opponents. And if that's what you're calling nonsense being sold by used car salesmen, we clearly disagree.

Timmy probably was sitting in a meeting bored and vented some common frustrations shared by many parents of younger players. Since you've taken your kid out of club soccer, your perspective is clearly different than mine. I have an '02 playing club still. I don't place any expectations on my kids athletically. I let them lead what they want to do. I just build bridges and open doors so the kids can walk over it and through the doors to do what they want to do. The only adult supervision is occasional guidance and course correction, if needed.

So much of the posters here have younger players and simply have not experienced the evolution of youth players as they reach U16, 17, 18 and onto college, if at all. Its in their writings - mostly girls and below U12. So much happens between now and then. If they end up with a kid that has a drive and passion for soccer as an older player, Timmy's post makes no sense. If they never get to that point, then it make every sense.

Just for the record, I've never seen a car salesman wearing a tracksuit but you must have.... And no coolaid but McCallen 18 - yes!

I sense some sort of sarcasm in your post, but sounded too serious so thanks for clarifying that. We agree in many things such as DA being above all other competitions, that players need to play against equally (close) skilled kids and how other posters feel. My kids hate it when they play less skilled teams.

This is the part that I feel Timmy is completely right is that there are way too many leagues and acronyms that are all rec in nature. DA for boys and ECNL for girls was the standard for elite, now ECNL is fighting to keep that title agaisnt GDA, other than that all those other names (DPL, EGSL, Flight Elite, Super Crap, etc.) are watering down local leagues, local competition just to grab money. What is the point of a team traveling far away every other weekend if they are not a DA team? Coaches per diem? Hotel points? Me personally I don't justify that waste of time and money just to be in a club for bragging purposes, which is what a lot of parents do(Which is another issue).

I did pick up the sarcasm in your last line about the tracksuits. Gave me a good laugh!

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

For this reason alone DA should be MLS teams only. They can have as many teams they can get - as long as they fit the bill. As mentioned in articles MLS (via US Soccer) uses club system (parents money, clubs, even odp) to develop kids to point where an MLS can come in and bring them in - upper talent/parents now more saavy. This would shut down a ton of issues - then again big clubs will probably just come up with some shiny new circuit to market.

Yes this makes so much sense to me. Keep the DA stuff to the professional teams, not the local teams. I spoke with someone from OCSC a few weeks back and they seem pretty happy to not build a club program at the moment and instead are forming relationships with big clubs, to take the older players, when they are ready. They want 50% of their roster to come from Orange County within 5 years.

It does seem there are too many DA teams to keep everyone at the elite level. Also, as a club newbie, what is pre-academy? I see this promoted all the time, does this basically just mean flight 1 teams who think they are good enough to compete at DA but didn't get accepted? There isn't a pre-academy league is there? (although if there isn't, I bet there will be one soon, more acronyms to get my head around!)

 

[timbuck]

Pre-academy is usually when a club has academy status, but this age group doesn’t have academy yet.
This year for girls that would have been the 05 age group. Next year, these girls will be able to play academy.

What will be interesting is how much of a club’s “pre academy” roster will be on the “academy” roster.
I know Pats pre academy roster will look pretty different from their Academy roster. Same with West Coast/OC Surf.

 

[younothat]

If all the 'new' leagues were put together primarily for the development of players, we likely wouldn't need to have this discussion. But most of them it seems are about $. After 6 years here, I find it incredible looking at the number of different leagues and competitions. Even more incredible is the usage of words like 'elite' and 'super' in reference to leagues and teams. I genuinely wonder if people see through that? Seriously.

There is certainly something to be said for keeping 90% of teams/players as 'local' as possible in terms of playing games. Sure, for the small number of teams and players who are operating on a national level in terms of their ability and playing standard, more travel is probably necessary. But for the rest, it's really just about $ and the prestige; "yeah, my son plays on an elite team in the super national championship league." He might only play 10 minutes each week but that doesn't matter.

How hard is it to put players first? I'm happy to stand accused of being an idealist but it's something I've always found easy. The first question I ask for every decision I make in terms of any team is, "does this best serve the players?" If the answer is no, it doesn't happen. I know there are plenty of clubs, coaches and parents with the same view but of course not everyone looks at it that way. We all should though, shouldn't we?

The travel time > greater than the play time thing each week is problem, I'm not sure if you or somebody else mentioned that in a post recently but I tend to agree.

If you're in the DA you can spend 2-3 days in travel time to play 1-2 games on the weekend. Leave Friday night, go up to Seattle, Vancouver, or another state, play Saturday and then hopefully Sunday. If your lucky and the weather is good starters get a game in half or more of playing time, some subs get 20-40 minutes, and some players spend the whole 3 days and don't play.

One of the biggest problem of all IMO in these so called "higher level" league is the lack of Promotion and Regulations #prorel (pro/rel) in the USA so the competition is uneven and gets stale. The MLS teams on the top have the resources, draw, pick of the players and everybody else is scrambling all the time to try to keep up.

There is really no youth soccer pyramid in the US but rather a bunch of competing self serving fiefdoms and clubs more focused on marketing and drawing the most business out of a disguised non-profit orginizations that don't care much about local or grass roots soccer.

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

Pre-academy is usually when a club has academy status, but this age group doesn’t have academy yet.
This year for girls that would have been the 05 age group. Next year, these girls will be able to play academy.

What will be interesting is how much of a club’s “pre academy” roster will be on the “academy” roster.
I know Pats pre academy roster will look pretty different from their Academy roster. Same with West Coast/OC Surf.

Thanks. Saw an 08 pre academy and assumed it was just a marketing ploy to get more players in. Why not just advertise as flight 1 and be genuine with people. Oh well never going to happen. This is another problem with having local clubs have DA programs, they will abuse it to try and con parents into signing for their lower flight teams. Our club managed to get an 07 player into the LAG DA program, when the local LAG club failed to produce a single player to make it.

 

[mirage]

For this reason alone DA should be MLS teams only.......

What I agree is that MLS academies should play in the league of their own that probably coincide with the MLS games itself. In other words, they should sit above DA league.

If there is an MLS game on Sunday, the academy teams from those two respective MLS clubs can play on Saturday at one the practice fields that the club owns (because they don't want to incur the cost of opening up the stadium and take a chance for the field to get torn up prior to the main event).

My personal thought is that non-MLS DA clubs should exist and be a stepping stone into the MLS DA teams. This way, the access to DA can still be regionalized and relatively local for everyone. For those that are cut above can continue onto any of the MLS academies. And it won't impact the college recruiting that goes on currently at DA Playoffs/Showcases. Since MLS academies are interested in finding future pro players, much of the regular DA team players can still focus on college soccer.

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

One of the biggest problem of all IMO in these so called "higher level" league is the lack of Promotion and Regulations #prorel (pro/rel) in the USA so the competition is uneven and gets stale. The MLS teams on the top have the resources, draw, pick of the players and everybody else is scrambling all the time to try to keep up.

There is really no youth soccer pyramid in the US but rather a bunch of competing self serving fiefdoms and clubs more focused on marketing and drawing the most business out of a disguised non-profit orginizations that don't care much about local or grass roots soccer.

Yes this is the big problem. As I said earlier, in the past three weeks we have played against a F2 team, a F3 team and an AYSO Extra team. The AYSO team were strongest, then the F3 team and the F2 team were the weakest. So clearly parents are being duped by marketing and profit rather than focusing on where their child should be for the best development.

By the sounds of everyone on this forum, there will never be a pyramid that encapsulates all club teams, so the madness will continue for years to come!

 

[mirage]

If you're in the DA you can spend 2-3 days in travel time to play 1-2 games on the weekend. Leave Friday night, go up to Seattle, Vancouver, or another state, play Saturday and then hopefully Sunday. If your lucky and the weather is good starters get a game in half or more of playing time, some subs get 20-40 minutes, and some players spend the whole 3 days and don't play.

Just to add bit of color on this statement. Most DA clubs I am aware of take smaller roster (meaning not the entire roster but within the limitation of sub rule) on travel. They usually play everyone that travels.

The Friday travel is typically during the day so they miss school on Friday of travel and they play in adverse weather. I mean, if rain/sleet/snow stops the game, they would lose more than half the schedule in the Pacific NW.

One of the biggest problem of all IMO in these so called "higher level" league is the lack of Promotion and Regulations #prorel (pro/rel) in the USA so the competition is uneven and gets stale.....

Completely agree. Would be much better to have promotion and relegation in US between MLS>NASL>USL. The logistics and stadium issues would be complicated but it would result in better soccer in the country.

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

My personal thought is that non-MLS DA clubs should exist and be a stepping stone into the MLS DA teams. This way, the access to DA can still be regionalized and relatively local for everyone. For those that are cut above can continue onto any of the MLS academies. And it won't impact the college recruiting that goes on currently at DA Playoffs/Showcases. Since MLS academies are interested in finding future pro players, much of the regular DA team players can still focus on college soccer.

Why cant these teams just be in flight 1, or gold or whatever? Have the top 10 CSL teams in the gold division and the top 10 SCDSL in flight 1 and then everyone else be silver-elite or flight 2 and below.

Those 20 teams can then be the feeder clubs for the MLS DA programs. For everyone else, they can compete locally with the goal to be recruited by a flight 1/gold team. Keep the top level of CSL/SCDSL small and tight.

 

[Messi>CR7]

My 10-year-old DD knows if you finish in the bottom 3 in La Liga, you get relegated to Segunda. If you finish in the bottom 3 in Segunda, then you get relegated to Segunda B.

When I tried to explain to her the options between DA, ECNL, SCDSL to her over the weekend, she lost interest on the topic very quickly.

 

[mirage]

Why cant these teams just be in flight 1, or gold or whatever? ......

You must be Youngers parent. Your thinking too regionally. The part of the appeal of DA is playing in the national gaming circuit. You quickly run out of competition at the top, if its only regional as you've suggested.

 

[timbuck]

Yes this is the big problem. As I said earlier, in the past three weeks we have played against a F2 team, a F3 team and an AYSO Extra team. The AYSO team were strongest, then the F3 team and the F2 team were the weakest. So clearly parents are being duped by marketing and profit rather than focusing on where their child should be for the best development.

By the sounds of everyone on this forum, there will never be a pyramid that encapsulates all club teams, so the madness will continue for years to come!

Not sure of your age group - But I would say the "Extra" team has decided "enough is enough." They have players that can compete at higher levels, but have decided "Why pay the money? We have good players. A "good enough" coach" and we don't have to follow the latest trend." Maybe in a few years, that team will decide they need a different level of competition. But for now, they are spending $300-$500 for a year of Extra instead of $2,000-$3,000 for the next level.

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

You must be Youngers parent. Your thinking too regionally. The part of the appeal of DA is playing in the national gaming circuit. You quickly run out of competition at the top, if its only regional as you've suggested.

Yes I am, I will admit I am naïve in this whole area, but it just doesn't make sense to me! Ha!

But people are saying that some DA teams are on a lower level to other DA programs. So if you cant beat the local competition/current flight 1 teams, why on earth would you compete nationally? Conquer your own back yard before you travel to someone else's turf, surely? The whole concept of the DA program is for the elite kids right? There shouldn't be dozens of teams unless they can all compete at the top top level, which people on this forum are disputing.

 

[ItsCalledSoccer]

Not sure of your age group - But I would say the "Extra" team has decided "enough is enough." They have players that can compete at higher levels, but have decided "Why pay the money? We have good players. A "good enough" coach" and we don't have to follow the latest trend." Maybe in a few years, that team will decide they need a different level of competition. But for now, they are spending $300-$500 for a year of Extra instead of $2,000-$3,000 for the next level.

2008s, so I'm aware I'm at the younger stage of the soccer parent life and still have a lot to see and learn! Yes not long ago we were in the 'extra' circuit and there are many teams in there that could easily compete in the club circuit but still find good local competition in their AYSO Extra circuit and I don't blame them at all!