Ponderable

[Lion Eyes]

What do poor people have to do with the National debt? 40+% of taxpayers pay nothing because their income is too low to pay taxes.

What's wrong with skewing the tax system, like our progressive tax system does, toward those who can most afford to pay taxes?

A flat tax punishes the poor and benefits the rich, is that what you want?

I'm sorry I expect to much from you and MAgoo.
Who said poor people had anything to do with the national debt? I didn't.
Wez, you asked what was wrong with the current system...I answered see the national debt.
Under our current system the national debt continues to climb. The current system doesn't work very well.

One of the big bitches from many is that write offs such as the mortgage interest favors the rich..
Then there are business expenses, that wage earners can't claim, bla bla bla....
Rich guys with really good tax attorney's will pay far less as a % than us middle class guys.

So, let's let the poor continue not to pay taxes, set a number $15,000.00? $20,000.00? $35,000.00?
Make that a base line. You earn at or below the base, you pay no tax.
Everybody else pays... again set a number 10%? 15%? 18.5% 28%? and they pay that number on all their income.
Both sets of numbers can be easily manipulated or changed as the economy strengthens or weakens or as additional revenues are needed.

Does that really punish the poor?
I suppose it's just a fairy tale....

 

[Lion Eyes]

It looks like you believe in fairy tales, unless you can firm up some details like --
What "flat" rate?
What is counted as income?
What deductions, exemptions, credits are permitted?
What would be the impact on current long-term tax-deferment plans?
How much revenue would it raise, compared to the current horrid system?

I haven't seen any plan touted as "flat tax" that makes sense with those factors taken into account

Think about it, ponder it if you will.
You believe yourself smarter than ...well....everyone.
Let's hear what MAgoo would do.
Just don't think about it too hard, you might soil yourself.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

It looks like you believe in fairy tales, unless you can firm up some details like --
What "flat" rate?
What is counted as income?
What deductions, exemptions, credits are permitted?
What would be the impact on current long-term tax-deferment plans?
How much revenue would it raise, compared to the current horrid system?

I haven't seen any plan touted as "flat tax" that makes sense with those factors taken into account

That's because you're ignoring spending

 

[Bruddah IZ]

What do poor people have to do with the National debt? 40+% of taxpayers pay nothing because their income is too low to pay taxes.

What's wrong with skewing the tax system, like our progressive tax system does, toward those who can most afford to pay taxes?

A flat tax punishes the poor and benefits the rich, is that what you want?

Clueless

 

[Wez]

Who said poor people had anything to do with the national debt? I didn't.
Wez, you asked what was wrong with the current system...I answered see the national debt.

...and immediately followed it with: "50% of tax payers pay nada....perhaps since we all benefit, we should all pay something?"

So, let's let the poor continue not to pay taxes, set a number $15,000.00? $20,000.00? $35,000.00?
Make that a base line. You earn at or below the base, you pay no tax.
Everybody else pays... again set a number 10%? 15%? 18.5% 28%? and they pay that number on all their income.
Both sets of numbers can be easily manipulated or changed as the economy strengthens or weakens or as additional revenues are needed.

Does that really punish the poor?

If the "poor" are exempted, than no, but a progressive tax system skews the tax payments toward those most able to afford them.

Yes, you can exempt poverty levels, but those just above paying the same as the rich and they are the ones who get screwed. The rich make out because they no longer are shouldering the majority of tax burden, like they currently do.

I'm middle class (depending on how you define it), I don't want a flat tax. I think what we have now actually works pretty well, despite various complaints, usually from those who don't fully understand taxation.

 

[Wez]

If your goal is to cut tax revenue to the Gov., across the board, mostly from the rich, and get more from lower incomes, than a flat tax is what you want.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

...and immediately followed it with: "50% of tax payers pay nada....perhaps since we all benefit, we should all pay something?"

If the "poor" are exempted, than no, but a progressive tax system skews the tax payments toward those most able to afford them.

Yes, you can exempt poverty levels, but those just above paying the same as the rich and they are the ones who get screwed. The rich make out because they no longer are shouldering the majority of tax burden, like they currently do.

I'm middle class (depending on how you define it), I don't want a flat tax. I think what we have now actually works pretty well, despite various complaints, usually from those who don't fully understand taxation.

It's the spending that you don't fully understand Mr. 10 letters after my name.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

State Department spokesman John Kirby acknowledged Wednesday that Islamic State terrorists are trying to mingle with refugee populations overseas in the hopes of making it to the U.S. posing as a refugee.

 

[espola]

What do poor people have to do with the National debt? 40+% of taxpayers pay nothing because their income is too low to pay taxes.

What's wrong with skewing the tax system, like our progressive tax system does, toward those who can most afford to pay taxes?

A flat tax punishes the poor and benefits the rich, is that what you want?

That depends on the details.

We currently have a government and election system that is thoroughly in the pockets of big money. If we completely scrap the income tax system and replace it with another revenue-generating process, who do you think will get the biggest favors?

 

[Bruddah IZ]

That depends on the details.

We currently have a government and election system that is thoroughly in the pockets of big money. If we completely scrap the income tax system and replace it with another revenue-generating process, who do you think will get the biggest favors?

Let the consumers decide with a consumption tax. How about 22%?

 

[Lion Eyes]

If your goal is to cut tax revenue to the Gov., across the board, mostly from the rich, and get more from lower incomes, than a flat tax is what you want.

Poppycock Wez.

The rates can be changed if necessary, just as they are changed now.
The rich will continue to pay far more than the middle class.
Do the math..
10% of $55,000. is $5,500.00
10% of 1,000,000.00 is $100,000.00
No need for tax attorney's to figure all the "write offs"....

 

[Wez]

Let me explain in very simple terms, the actual calculations are more complex.

We know the lowest incomes, after standars deductions and exemptions, pay nothing.

We know lower middle class pays about 10-15% of their net income.

Mid class about 20%.

Upper Mid about 28%.

High income earners about 35%.

Again, rough numbers because of the many variables involved.

The super rich whose income is derived largely from tax free bonds and stock dividends, pay much lower rates because of the incentives designed to make investment in the economy (stocks and municipal bonds) worthwhile.

So a flat tax punishes low and Mid earners and benefits high earners, relative to our current system.

If the intent of a flat tax system is to take away the preferential tax treatment of municipal bonds and stock dividends and make the super rich pay much higher taxes, than the likely result would be they invest overseas in Countries that have more attractive tax systems.

 

[Lion Eyes]

Let me explain in very simple terms, the actual calculations are more complex.

We know the lowest incomes, after standars deductions and exemptions, pay nothing.

We know lower middle class pays about 10-15% of their net income.

Mid class about 20%.

Upper Mid about 28%.

High income earners about 35%.

Again, rough numbers because of the many variables involved.

The super rich whose income is derived largely from tax free bonds and stock dividends, pay much lower rates because of the incentives designed to make investment in the economy (stocks and municipal bonds) worthwhile.

So a flat tax punishes low and Mid earners and benefits high earners, relative to our current system.

If the intent of a flat tax system is to take away the preferential tax treatment of municipal bonds and stock dividends and make the super rich pay much higher taxes, than the likely result would be they invest overseas in Countries that have more attractive tax systems.

The countries that have attractive tax systems, already have investments from the super rich....
The argument coming from the progressives is the top 10% should pay their fair share, the 10% now pay 70% of the income taxes.
40% of us pay the remaining 30% of taxes. What is more fair than a flat tax?
For the flat tax to work the tax code must be thrown out.
The poor have no need for a tax code. The tax code is written to protect the wealthy.

I gotta believe that most folks, including the "high earners", would welcome a straight 15% or 20% or 25% tax on income.

 

[Bernie Sanders]

Let the consumers decide with a consumption tax. How about 22%?

Simple.

 

[espola]

The countries that have attractive tax systems, already have investments from the super rich....
The argument coming from the progressives is the top 10% should pay their fair share, the 10% now pay 70% of the income taxes.
40% of us pay the remaining 30% of taxes. What is more fair than a flat tax?
For the flat tax to work the tax code must be thrown out.
The poor have no need for a tax code. The tax code is written to protect the wealthy.

I gotta believe that most folks, including the "high earners", would welcome a straight 15% or 20% or 25% tax on income.

What countries have attractive tax systems? Why are they attractive?

 

[Bernie Sanders]

What countries have attractive tax systems? Why are they attractive?

This is a really tough question.
Would I want to pay more or less?
hmmmm.
This is gonna take some pondering.

 

[Wez]

The countries that have attractive tax systems, already have investments from the super rich....

Do you want that trend to continue by making our tax code less attactive?

The argument coming from the progressives is the top 10% should pay their fair share, the 10% now pay 70% of the income taxes.

True, but that's not what I'm saying. Most complaints about taxes are ill informed.

40% of us pay the remaining 30% of taxes. What is more fair than a flat tax?

"Fair", not for the Mid incomes. I just explained it above, do you need to reread it?

I gotta believe that most folks, including the "high earners", would welcome a straight 15% or 20% or 25% tax on income.

"Most" being a term that needs definition because, as I've already stated above, Mid income gets to shoulder more of the tax burden, compared to our current tax system.

If your goal is to reduce overall taxes going to the Gov. by slashing what the high earners pay, than a flat tax system is what you want.

 

[Wez]

Oh look what Mr. "Free Market" Teabagger Rick Snyder is up to:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-michigan-idUSKCN11S20R

""Tesla Motors Inc Thursday sued Michigan Governor Rick Snyder and other state officials in federal court over the state's refusal to allow the Palo Alto, California automaker to sell vehicles directly to consumers.

A spokesman for Snyder said the governor had no comment.

"Unfortunately, the local auto dealers and local manufacturers have made clear that they oppose any law that would allow Tesla to operate in Michigan," Tesla's statement said. "As one leading legislator told Tesla: the local auto dealers do not want you here. The local manufacturers do not want you here. So you’re not going to be here.""

 

[Lion Eyes]

,

What countries have attractive tax systems? Why are they attractive?

Ask Wezzer, he posted it, it's one of his argument against a flat tax, not mine.
Trust me if the rich can move money over seas or off shore to save taxes, they will they are & they have.

 

[Bruddah IZ]

Oh look what Mr. "Free Market" Teabagger Rick Snyder is up to:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-michigan-idUSKCN11S20R

""Tesla Motors Inc Thursday sued Michigan Governor Rick Snyder and other state officials in federal court over the state's refusal to allow the Palo Alto, California automaker to sell vehicles directly to consumers.

A spokesman for Snyder said the governor had no comment.

"Unfortunately, the local auto dealers and local manufacturers have made clear that they oppose any law that would allow Tesla to operate in Michigan," Tesla's statement said. "As one leading legislator told Tesla: the local auto dealers do not want you here. The local manufacturers do not want you here. So you’re not going to be here.""

Ah yes. Taxpayer subsidized Tesla

 

[Wez]

,
Ask Wezzer, he posted it, it's one of his argument against a flat tax, not mine.

The countries that have attractive tax systems, already have investments from the super rich....

Stand by your own statements dude...