Who controls US Soccer ?

[Brav520]

Free Market system (MLS) dominating in U.S.. Who could have guessed. If we want soccer to become big in the US like Football and Basketball, then US Soccer needs to get out of the way of MLS. America dosen't need to mirror the European soccer model; they should follow the NFL/NBA model.

I was listening to a recent podcast , and they were talking about the NBA concern with how the American player is being developed . The top three players in the league were not developed in this country ( Luka , Giannis , and Jokic )

The European model is focused on development , skills , etc , less on actual games . AAU is a bit of a shit show , and they play a ton of games

Sounded all too familiar to me

 

[watfly]

Misses the point. It's the needs of the 1% of players that are driving the other 99%. The other 99% are just sacrificed to the 1%. It's a conscious decision on the part of US Soccer and MLS to focus on the development of professional players (it's the same reason they moved the age line...from a college development point of view, the old line makes more sense). You can have the game focused on developing professional players, developing college players, or winning trophies...not gonna do well if you are trying to please all 3 constituencies and do all 3 at once.

Is it working? No. There are three overriding reasons for it. First, our academies are a poor shadow of what even C league academies look like in the UK. That alone, however, isn't a deal breaker...they are hanging in there and the US on the men's side has remained competitive in the U20s. Second, our academies start late....talent is being missed as a result...those Latino League U7 that can't afford Strikers and who aren't early bloomers powerful enough to early a free ride (let alone transport) are being made to sit on the vine and by U13 they just don't have the skills to make an academy team. Remember the recommendation (less than a decade old) was that players shouldn't be playing full time in goal until U13? Europeans are now assigning goalkeepers at the academies at entry as early as U7. Not tall enough in the end to play pro? To bad so sad for you. But the biggest point is the U20s....we don't have a good way to transition onto the pro track from U20 because we don't have a robust secondary league that is competitive with what you can early at college...for the MLS it's easier to import players from small Central American and Caribbean country because to those players the MLS base salary is a fortune.

99% are being told they can be part of the 1%, which doesn't benefit the 99%, or the 1%. Everyone gets put in to the same system.

I think we miss players because we identify the wrong ones, not so much that the best ones don't make it to a academy program due to financial or physical barriers to entry. Soccer IQ just doesn't carry much weight in American soccer. Instead our coaches think they can take the biggest and fastest pre-teen kids and teach them tactics, wrongfully believing that tactics are the same as soccer IQ and decision making.

 

[Grace T.]

99% are being told they can be part of the 1%, which doesn't benefit the 99%, or the 1%. Everyone gets put in to the same system.

I think we miss players because we identify the wrong ones, not so much that the best ones don't make it to an academy program due to financial or physical barriers to entry. Soccer IQ just doesn't carry much weight in American soccer. Instead our coaches think they can take the biggest and fastest pre-teen kids and teach them tactics, wrongfully believing that tactics are the same as soccer IQ and decision making.

Agree they are misleading the 99% but they are making a calculated effort in doing so. The rest is just marketing to keep the troops in line. They’ve been very upfront that the goal is to develop pros so they are perfectly willing to sacrifice 99% to get that rare diamond in the rough. The European program, if anything, is even more ruthless because other than go play college soccer in America there is no safety valve. You can’t do both the academic and academy track within the time allotted and once you are off the academic track you are written off. Europeans don’t have the same notion that we do that everyone should go to college.

I agree the selection for the academy slots is off. If you look at the u13s generally picked they all have in common that they are tall and early bloomers. If you look at an mls next team at u15 v a flight 1 team, you’ll notice on average the higher level players are all bigger. Europe has a similar bias too according to the statistics. The advantage they have is that academies start as young as u7 and u8 so they have a lot more time to smooth out the edges. By the time our coaches get them at u13, the pool already doesn’t favor high iq players, and to the extent the system even produces any boys who are both early bloomers and high iq, that is a very small pool. And if you are playing Latino league in stead of strikers, forget it you are too far behind.

 

[crush]

99% are being told they can be part of the 1%, which doesn't benefit the 99%, or the 1%. Everyone gets put in to the same system.

Spot on watty. The GDA catered to the 99% by giving all of them guarantee starts 25% of the time. The 1%+++ got full rides and the 99% paid to play. They took over soccer. Made us all fly across the country to beat teams 14-0. Elite parents get what they pay for, and they wanted Susie playing with the 1%. Having the 1% play with and against the 99% was fool's gold soccer and has100% hurt our country. "The world is watching" was preached and now they see. The first year of GDA the 1% players were scoring 6 goals a game.

 

[whatithink]

Misses the point. It's the needs of the 1% of players that are driving the other 99%. The other 99% are just sacrificed to the 1%.

I think you are being generous that (as many as) 1% of current MLS Next players are that level, i.e. 1% of 100 (approx.) teams across 6 age groups.

 

[Slobodan]

A lot to unpack here.

1. You miss the point about football. It is much more than a game. People are showing up to the games because they've got kids in the band and cheerleading. The bands and cheerleaders are competitive as well, with many splitting after the football season to run in individual competitions themselves. Watfly is correct that schools can be doing more...but that looks more like basketball than football.
2. MLS Next doesn't allow high school for one simple reason. The stuff about training is just window dressing and some first class gaslighting. It's because of the needs of the Academies. The Academies to remain competitive with Europe run on a year round schedule. They need cannon fodder to practice and given soccer season varies across the country due to weather, there is no block of time they can afford to leave people off. It's all about the Academy players. The ideal weather period for a break anyway is fall, but the Academies want that time for themselves, and for high school it's overshadowed by gridiron football.
3. The MLS is essentially second league ball. Other people have written about the self-serving rules they've written in to serve their own agenda (which BTW is an offshoot of needing the league protected early on to make sure it could get off the ground). Even then, right now it's operating like a giant pyramid scheme with introducing new members to pay off the older ones. But the reality is until you get some dynasty level talent (like in the NBA you had the Bulls, Lakers and Warriors), people just won't be that interested, particularly with the EPL having the reach that it has now days. And you are never going to get a dynasty type situation with A level talent (InterMiami notwithstanding) as long as you have the 3 DP rule limitation in the league that basically keeps all teams at a rough parity. People forget that one of the things that made basketball take off was MJ's performance on the Dream Team and his run at the Bulls.

You had me at #1. MLS has deadbeats, standing on ladders, that never watch the match. Their entire reason for being there is to face the fans and show them how and when to clap. Throw in some constant drumming, too, as nothing says "miserable" like these assholes never shutting up for 5 minutes. If you can't get laid... get some notoriety.

 

[Slobodan]

This feels truly spot on. Contrast this with EPL.

Before I continue — I know; I know. Youth soccer in the US is not the same as EPL in England. Shocker!

My wife and I watched the Aston Villa v Luton FC game on TV over the weekend.

Luton is a “town” of 218k, northwest of London along the M4. It’s essentially ”a pit stop” along the path from London to northern England and Scotland. Their stadium seats 10k and looks like a patchwork project that was pieced together over 5 decades. Luton FC is fighting to avoid relegation.

10,000 fans showed up. And that place was ROCKING for 90 minutes!!! Because it was a whole-community event. Luton FC wins (they didn’t)? The whole town wins (they didn’t)! Luton FC loses (they did)? The whole town loses (they did).

We simply do not have that here.

My daughter and I watched a top ten national matchup during the playoffs at Surf Park last year. After a home team goal, one of the parents turned to me and yelled, “I don’t know who you are, but…” *high five*!

That was the closest thing to a “community win” as I’ve felt in youth soccer.

In fairness, there might not be much else to do in Luton.

... but I think we do (kind of) have that here. Look at the Midwest colleges like Nebraska, Oklahoma, etc. They take their shit seriously.

 

[Grace T.]

I think you are being generous that (as many as) 1% of current MLS Next players are that level, i.e. 1% of 100 (approx.) teams across 6 age groups.

Other than the top handful players at a handful of unicorns like Strikers and IMG, I'm not counting the non-Academy MLS Next Players. You pretty much have to be at an academy (Europe, Mexico, MLS) to have a pro track, and regular MLS Next teams are not MLS Academies

 

[watfly]

Other than the top handful players at a handful of unicorns like Strikers and IMG, I'm not counting the non-Academy MLS Next Players. You pretty much have to be at an academy (Europe, Mexico, MLS) to have a pro track, and regular MLS Next teams are not MLS Academies

I've always been impressed with the Strikers boys program. IMG is a mid-table program for soccer...or, at least it was a few years ago.

 

[Code]

Both the NFL and NBA depend on college to develop talent. Soccer doesn't work this way because it's an international game and outside of America nearly everyone implements the Academy model. What this means is MLS can bring on higher quality talent by shopping globally vs bringing on from college via a draft.

MLB with its minor league system is the closest to what MLS has implemented with MLS Next. Personally I think MLS Next is better because it's like Minor Leage Baseball but youth clubs also participate.

Their talent wasn't/isn't developed in college, it is just exploited there. With teams unionizing now, it will become clear.

 

[crush]

You had me at #1. MLS has deadbeats, standing on ladders, that never watch the match. Their entire reason for being there is to face the fans and show them how and when to clap. Throw in some constant drumming, too, as nothing says "miserable" like these assholes never shutting up for 5 minutes. If you can't get laid... get some notoriety.

View attachment 20204

My sister-in-law has season tickets with LAFC. I went to my first game ever last year and it was insane at the back of the "home goal." First off, everyone was drunk before the game in that area and dudes with drums and screaming everywhere. The price for food and drink was worst then Disneyland. I also noticed many were not even watching the game. All in all, it was a fun experience but.....

 

[CruzControl]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I say make high school soccer relevant again. Most kids only chance for glory is HS, why not promote it instead of prohibiting it or discouraging it. Unfortunately, clubs and coaches are too arrogant to allow it. High school is the college pathway for every major sport. Why does club soccer think its special? IDK, but somehow its brain washed parents into thinking so. (I'm not claiming the current high school soccer is pretty, but that's self-fulfilling when the best players are discouraged from playing.)

1. After a decade of the club soccer slog, away from home, with an audience of self-interested parents -- they've earned their glory days. Give them an audience of their peers, school pride, passion, rivalries, drama.

2. They're also earned a potential return on financial investment. Elite club soccer (like club basketball) should be a pipeline to high school recruiting/financial aid/scholarships/etc. A worthy end of the rainbow on its own. The "pathway to D1/pro" is narrow and improbable. The "pathway to a great high school" is realistic and achievable and can be life-changing outside of sports. If the high school game were relevant, the race to create the best teams would follow. Some of the top high school basketball programs in LA are highly selective private schools.

3. Confidence, baby. A role player on an outstanding MLS Next Team -- fighting for their spot, afraid to make mistakes, unrecruited by the academy -- might forget how great they are at this game. But they could potentially be a standout star on a high school team. For the 99% who aren't going pro, these should the confidence building years. Give them an audience, let them shine.

4. Give a purpose to the massive youth soccer landscape in this country. Millions of kids play soccer, but the MLS Next isn't building off of it. Banning high school soccer sucks the best players out of the soccer ecosystem and even walls them off from their own social lives. If instead they injected the best youth soccer players (their names, excellence, dreams, rivals) into the culture, they would grow the game/their audience.

5. Is "make soccer relevant again" really an unpopular opinion? It should be the most popular opinion.

 

[watfly]

1. After a decade of the club soccer slog, away from home, with an audience of self-interested parents -- they've earned their glory days. Give them an audience of their peers, school pride, passion, rivalries, drama.

2. They're also earned a potential return on financial investment. Elite club soccer (like club basketball) should be a pipeline to high school recruiting/financial aid/scholarships/etc. A worthy end of the rainbow on its own. The "pathway to D1/pro" is narrow and improbable. The "pathway to a great high school" is realistic and achievable and can be life-changing outside of sports. If the high school game were relevant, the race to create the best teams would follow. Some of the top high school basketball programs in LA are highly selective private schools.

3. Confidence, baby. A role player on an outstanding MLS Next Team -- fighting for their spot, afraid to make mistakes, unrecruited by the academy -- might forget how great they are at this game. But they could potentially be a standout star on a high school team. For the 99% who aren't going pro, these should the confidence building years. Give them an audience, let them shine.

4. Give a purpose to the massive youth soccer landscape in this country. Millions of kids play soccer, but the MLS Next isn't building off of it. Banning high school soccer sucks the best players out of the soccer ecosystem and even walls them off from their own social lives. If instead they injected the best youth soccer players (their names, excellence, dreams, rivals) into the culture, they would grow the game/their audience.

5. Is "make soccer relevant again" really an unpopular opinion? It should be the most popular opinion.

Well said. Based upon my experience, by the time they're in U12, kids and parents are made aware that the best players don't play HS soccer and that its an inferior product...and playing HS is frowned upon.

 

[crush]

Well said. Based upon my experience, by the time they're in U12, kids and parents are made aware that the best players don't play HS soccer and that its an inferior product...and playing HS is frowned upon.

U13 was when my kid was hit with, "High School Soccer bad" and they also said college soccer is bad and you should only play soccer to be the best of the best. If you want to be really good, pull your kid out of school and move them to the Northwest Boarding school for soccer players or home school them. My kid is super social so that was not going to work.

 

[sockma]

I've always been impressed with the Strikers boys program. IMG is a mid-table program for soccer...or, at least it was a few years ago.

A lot to unpack here.

1. You miss the point about football. It is much more than a game. People are showing up to the games because they've got kids in the band and cheerleading. The bands and cheerleaders are competitive as well, with many splitting after the football season to run in individual competitions themselves. Watfly is correct that schools can be doing more...but that looks more like basketball than football.
2. MLS Next doesn't allow high school for one simple reason. The stuff about training is just window dressing and some first class gaslighting. It's because of the needs of the Academies. The Academies to remain competitive with Europe run on a year round schedule. They need cannon fodder to practice and given soccer season varies across the country due to weather, there is no block of time they can afford to leave people off. It's all about the Academy players. The ideal weather period for a break anyway is fall, but the Academies want that time for themselves, and for high school it's overshadowed by gridiron football.
3. The MLS is essentially second league ball. Other people have written about the self-serving rules they've written in to serve their own agenda (which BTW is an offshoot of needing the league protected early on to make sure it could get off the ground). Even then, right now it's operating like a giant pyramid scheme with introducing new members to pay off the older ones. But the reality is until you get some dynasty level talent (like in the NBA you had the Bulls, Lakers and Warriors), people just won't be that interested, particularly with the EPL having the reach that it has now days. And you are never going to get a dynasty type situation with A level talent (InterMiami notwithstanding) as long as you have the 3 DP rule limitation in the league that basically keeps all teams at a rough parity. People forget that one of the things that made basketball take off was MJ's performance on the Dream Team and his run at the Bulls.

1. I didn't miss that point. How do you explain the 100,000 seat stadiums in college and the viewershi

 

[sockma]

A lot to unpack here.

1. You miss the point about football. It is much more than a game. People are showing up to the games because they've got kids in the band and cheerleading. The bands and cheerleaders are competitive as well, with many splitting after the football season to run in individual competitions themselves. Watfly is correct that schools can be doing more...but that looks more like basketball than football.
2. MLS Next doesn't allow high school for one simple reason. The stuff about training is just window dressing and some first class gaslighting. It's because of the needs of the Academies. The Academies to remain competitive with Europe run on a year round schedule. They need cannon fodder to practice and given soccer season varies across the country due to weather, there is no block of time they can afford to leave people off. It's all about the Academy players. The ideal weather period for a break anyway is fall, but the Academies want that time for themselves, and for high school it's overshadowed by gridiron football.
3. The MLS is essentially second league ball. Other people have written about the self-serving rules they've written in to serve their own agenda (which BTW is an offshoot of needing the league protected early on to make sure it could get off the ground). Even then, right now it's operating like a giant pyramid scheme with introducing new members to pay off the older ones. But the reality is until you get some dynasty level talent (like in the NBA you had the Bulls, Lakers and Warriors), people just won't be that interested, particularly with the EPL having the reach that it has now days. And you are never going to get a dynasty type situation with A level talent (InterMiami notwithstanding) as long as you have the 3 DP rule limitation in the league that basically keeps all teams at a rough parity. People forget that one of the things that made basketball take off was MJ's performance on the Dream Team and his run at the Bulls.

1. I didn't miss that point. How do you explain the 100,000 seat stadiums in college and the viewership for NFL or college football? It all starts in high school and if you think cheerleaders/band is needed then we should add a bunch of other groups to high school soccer games, not take high school soccer out completely. My kids and their friends didn't go watch football games because of the cheerleaders or band. It was convenient thing to do on a Friday night for all the local kids to hand out.
2. This is the problem, they think they need to be like Europe and follow that schedule, even if means breaking for 2-3 months. MLS Nex should be working with high schools to see how they can support their training and activities.

3. This is false. College Football is a huge success and the talent isn't that great. Basketball was huge before MJ. MJ helped grow the game further.

 

[Grace T.]

1. I didn't miss that point. How do you explain the 100,000 seat stadiums in college and the viewership for NFL or college football? It all starts in high school and if you think cheerleaders/band is needed then we should add a bunch of other groups to high school soccer games, not take high school soccer out completely. My kids and their friends didn't go watch football games because of the cheerleaders or band. It was convenient thing to do on a Friday night for all the local kids to hand out.
2. This is the problem, they think they need to be like Europe and follow that schedule, even if means breaking for 2-3 months. MLS Nex should be working with high schools to see how they can support their training and activities.

3. This is false. College Football is a huge success and the talent isn't that great. Basketball was huge before MJ. MJ helped grow the game further.

1. Don't disagree...but it does all start in high school. The problem is the structure of soccer itself (which is the same problem with basketball). Football has a lot of stops that allows the cheerleader to perform their thing. Half time is obnoxiously long. The stops also allow people to converse and move around and outside of a few important plays you aren't really missing much. Soccer doesn't have the stops and it's much less social. Trying to build a football model around soccer is doomed to failure...best you can hope for is basketball. That said, I agree we can get more to basketball. Others have pointed out how community is built in soccer...there's a bit of Chesterton's fence here but we see it in the LAFC and Galaxy supporters stands a others have pointed out...bringing drums and flags to soccer events (club and high school) is officially or unofficially discouraged at soccer events. Even saw one parent who tried to bring a little drum squad around U12 or U11 tournament kicked out. There's also the schedule problem....by the time soccer roles around in SoCal the cheerleaders and band are off doing their own competition with football being over and people are somewhat partied out with homecoming and New Years done. You are kidding yourself is you don't think part of the attendance isn't driven by the cheerleaders, band and booster club....only reason my son's GK coach family was out at football games this year was because his kids did band.
2. The problem isn't just Europe and the MLS. Given MLS Next is a national league (good luck changing that), the break to work would have to be across the country at the same time and the weather that works best is early fall-- which is gridiron football time (again good luck with that). Tri problem of MLS trying to match Europe, MLS Next being structured as a national league due to the academies, and gridiron football already having the best block.
3. Europe and basketball took off after the MJ performance. Would refer you to the MJ documentary. European basketball owes its post 2000 success to MJ and the rise of their academy system.

 

[sockma]

1. Don't disagree...but it does all start in high school. The problem is the structure of soccer itself (which is the same problem with basketball). Football has a lot of stops that allows the cheerleader to perform their thing. Half time is obnoxiously long. The stops also allow people to converse and move around and outside of a few important plays you aren't really missing much. Soccer doesn't have the stops and it's much less social. Trying to build a football model around soccer is doomed to failure...best you can hope for is basketball. That said, I agree we can get more to basketball. Others have pointed out how community is built in soccer...there's a bit of Chesterton's fence here but we see it in the LAFC and Galaxy supporters stands a others have pointed out...bringing drums and flags to soccer events (club and high school) is officially or unofficially discouraged at soccer events. Even saw one parent who tried to bring a little drum squad around U12 or U11 tournament kicked out. There's also the schedule problem....by the time soccer roles around in SoCal the cheerleaders and band are off doing their own competition with football being over and people are somewhat partied out with homecoming and New Years done. You are kidding yourself is you don't think part of the attendance isn't driven by the cheerleaders, band and booster club....only reason my son's GK coach family was out at football games this year was because his kids did band.
2. The problem isn't just Europe and the MLS. Given MLS Next is a national league (good luck changing that), the break to work would have to be across the country at the same time and the weather that works best is early fall-- which is gridiron football time (again good luck with that). Tri problem of MLS trying to match Europe, MLS Next being structured as a national league due to the academies, and gridiron football already having the best block.
3. Europe and basketball took off after the MJ performance. Would refer you to the MJ documentary. European basketball owes its post 2000 success to MJ and the rise of their academy system.

1. Soccer has pregame, half time, post game, throw ins, corner kicks, etc. and no, we shouldn't copy football exactly. Those kids in high school aren't watching the football game most of the time, but it's enough to build their desire to watch the games in the future. There's competitive dancing, colorguard, and a ton of other entertainment activities that could perform throughout the game.

Trying to pretend we are Europe/Asia/South American is silly.

2. ECNL is able to do it. MLS Next can definitely do it.

3. So you're only referring to European Basketball? That might be the case. I'm not familiar with the rise of European basketball.

 

[Grace T.]

1. Soccer has pregame, half time, post game, throw ins, corner kicks, etc. and no, we shouldn't copy football exactly. Those kids in high school aren't watching the football game most of the time, but it's enough to build their desire to watch the games in the future. There's competitive dancing, colorguard, and a ton of other entertainment activities that could perform throughout the game.

Trying to pretend we are Europe/Asia/South American is silly.

2. ECNL is able to do it. MLS Next can definitely do it.

3. So you're only referring to European Basketball? That might be the case. I'm not familiar with the rise of European basketball.

Just addressing your 2. ECNL is organized regionally (at least on the boys side). MLS for the academies the play is national (it's more complicated than that, but the academies are playing each other and to avoid having the kids have to fly to a different city every weekend, and to give 2nd string players and benchers not to mention the entire U16 squads of most academies are also playing the local non-academy teams). So the only way it works is if you have a unified national break (or you change it so that MLS Academies do not have national play, which for reasons discussed, namely that the pros are the priority and everyone else can f themselves, it's not going to happen). The national break isn't going to happen because not only the demands to keep the same schedule as the European academies, but also because the only time the weather across the country allows for a national break is early fall which conflicts with gridiron football that got there first.

As to community involvement, I also think it's illustrative to look at why baseball as declined. It also is a much more social sport than either basketball or soccer. Like European c and d soccer teams, it used to have deep and active second and third tiers in AA and AAA ball which communities were actively invested in.

 

[whatithink]

Just addressing your 2. ECNL is organized regionally (at least on the boys side). MLS for the academies the play is national (it's more complicated than that, but the academies are playing each other and to avoid having the kids have to fly to a different city every weekend, and to give 2nd string players and benchers not to mention the entire U16 squads of most academies are also playing the local non-academy teams). So the only way it works is if you have a unified national break (or you change it so that MLS Academies do not have national play, which for reasons discussed, namely that the pros are the priority and everyone else can f themselves, it's not going to happen). The national break isn't going to happen because not only the demands to keep the same schedule as the European academies, but also because the only time the weather across the country allows for a national break is early fall which conflicts with gridiron football that got there first.

As to community involvement, I also think it's illustrative to look at why baseball as declined. It also is a much more social sport than either basketball or soccer. Like European c and d soccer teams, it used to have deep and active second and third tiers in AA and AAA ball which communities were actively invested in.

There's no reason the MLS academies can't continue to have a national league and forgo HS soccer. The rest of the MLS Next teams can comfortably do HS soccer and play the academies in their fodder capacity around that. MLS Next is regionally organized, but their heads are so stuck up their butts, they think they are something (i.e. those not at academies and their respective clubs/coaches) that they are not. So they ban HS - its pathetic really.

FWIW, I see many MLS N kids playing HS every year, they just drop MLS and either take a short ban or rejoin at tryouts. They know they are good enough for the MLSN team and they know the coaches will pick them.