Lambchop
GOLD
And you know this how? How long have we been all playing with the new rules? Maybe give it a "little" more time to see what develops. Maybe it won't develop players or maybe it will. Time will tell.
U.S. Soccer’s Player Development Initiatives
- Thread starter younothat
- Start date
Daniel Miller
SILVER ELITE
I don't think the build-out line, no-punt rule or the offside rule changes deserve even a "little" more time to "see what develops." These new rules stink. They slow down development. They take away initiative. These rules penalize the fastest and best players so that the slow and stupid ones can keep up. They dumb down the game so it can be played without speed, pressure or intensity. These rules are stupid, and if you support them, then so are you.
Your philosophy ("hey, let's just see what happens") is the whole reason why US Soccer sucks. You would impose rules without having any idea "what will happen." When businesses do this, they go out of business. Which is why competent businesses actually test products before putting them into the market stream. They see how the product actually works, and they work the bugs out before they pass them on to their customers.
Your product, namely, dumbed-down socccer, doesn't work. We've seen it tried for a year, and it just plain sucks. I don't have to "give it a little more time" to see how it plays out. I've already seen how the rules have negatively impacted the game. If you can't see it, then you are even stupider than I thought, or you are personally invested, which puts you into a position of having to defend the new rules regardless of their idiocy.
It won't.
Having done quite a bit of reading and on the ground investigation now in South America and Italy, I think this is partially true. It's true that at the earliest ages they are getting more informal and frequent touches on the ball and having parents that played also helps. But the days of Pele coming out of the barrio and joining a national team have rapidly come to a close. For the last 10 years or so they've gone on an academy system which sorts in the kids into future footballers and also rans. Most people in those nations play for the love of it....not because they think they'll turn pro someday...they play rec without the expectation that will amount to something. Europe, in both sports and academics, much more closely tracks and sorts talent from a very young age, directing resources where they'll be spent most efficiently, though it means late bloomers may be sacrificed as a result. And those on the academy track aren't really inclined to do pickup games because they are spending all their time in soccer anyways....it's both a job and a passion to them.
My father was one of those street soccer kids in Latin America. Our arrangement was originally he was going to coach the kids. That didn't work out so good. His lack of formal training showed even at an early age with the kids. The deficiency in his knowledge really hit home to me at one tournament when he was yelling "off sides" to a ref on a throw in...the ref lectured him "you can't be offsides on a throw in sir". Street soccer is somewhat overrated....though for the under 7 set it is invaluable to grow up living and breathing it.
The big reason we don't have any street soccer (or pickup games in any sport) is because we have fewer kids in the US, and the kids we have are very overscheduled. Free ranged parenting, for better and for worse, has fallen out of favor, not just in the US, but across western civ. There are variety of reasons for why kids no longer hang out in the neighborhoods: moms working, government nannies, emulation of Asian principles, college competition, overworry about kids getting hurts, there are just plain less of them, etc.
So couple of things @Grace T. and @Justafan, about both of your comments.
The notion of lack of street soccer/pickup game is overused excuse, frankly, in my mind. You're right we don't have it like many other countries but I would argue that just go look at Santa Ana, Pomona, Moreno Valley, Chino Hills and so on on the weekends and even week nights. There are games going on constantly in the hispanic community leagues. NOT club soccer but family-based community soccer. Kids of all ages playing - boys and girls and often coed teams. And as you would guess, no real restrictions other than just fouls. Sometimes fights breakout too - amongst parents and coaches.
As for technical skills, it only comes when the player wants it bad enough. No amount of rules and approaches can substitute time with the ball at the kid's feet. First touch you say, well, kick the ball against the wall or high up in the air and learn to trap without a big rebound and settle the ball. My kids used to spend 15-20 min/day, every school day morning before being picked up in their carpool with a ball doing just that for 4 years until the older kid started driving. They did on their own. Both kids are very technical and have a great first touch today.
Creativity can be stifled when constrained too much. All these rules work just against players becoming creative. My older kid's first club coach told him to watch as much soccer games as he can on TV so that he can learn how the game is played (early soccer IQ). Couple of years later, another coach refused to instruct players where to be and put in set pieces because he wanted players to figure out what needs to be done (of course he gave hints and options). To this particular coach, having players figure it out and learn by doing in live situation was more important than wins. They finished in the middle of the table in Flight 1 that year. Some parents didn't like it and left the team then... I guess they didn't realize winning at U12 is absolutely meaningless in a big picture.
The point is, while I fully appreciate standardization and consistent and repeatable process, its not a one size fits all type of solution.
At the end of the day, if a kid wants to be great, the kid will work on it. It there are too many distractions, kid needs to make a choice and simplify. Its also okay just to be a player with bad first touch and very little soccer IQ, as long as its meeting the players expectations.
We sometime forget that even a child has his/her own perspective and ambitions. Just recognize that they may or may not match yours, and certainly not USSF's.
The notion of lack of street soccer/pickup game is overused excuse, frankly, in my mind. You're right we don't have it like many other countries but I would argue that just go look at Santa Ana, Pomona, Moreno Valley, Chino Hills and so on on the weekends and even week nights. There are games going on constantly in the hispanic community leagues. NOT club soccer but family-based community soccer. Kids of all ages playing - boys and girls and often coed teams. And as you would guess, no real restrictions other than just fouls. Sometimes fights breakout too - amongst parents and coaches.
As for technical skills, it only comes when the player wants it bad enough. No amount of rules and approaches can substitute time with the ball at the kid's feet. First touch you say, well, kick the ball against the wall or high up in the air and learn to trap without a big rebound and settle the ball. My kids used to spend 15-20 min/day, every school day morning before being picked up in their carpool with a ball doing just that for 4 years until the older kid started driving. They did on their own. Both kids are very technical and have a great first touch today.
Creativity can be stifled when constrained too much. All these rules work just against players becoming creative. My older kid's first club coach told him to watch as much soccer games as he can on TV so that he can learn how the game is played (early soccer IQ). Couple of years later, another coach refused to instruct players where to be and put in set pieces because he wanted players to figure out what needs to be done (of course he gave hints and options). To this particular coach, having players figure it out and learn by doing in live situation was more important than wins. They finished in the middle of the table in Flight 1 that year. Some parents didn't like it and left the team then... I guess they didn't realize winning at U12 is absolutely meaningless in a big picture.
The point is, while I fully appreciate standardization and consistent and repeatable process, its not a one size fits all type of solution.
At the end of the day, if a kid wants to be great, the kid will work on it. It there are too many distractions, kid needs to make a choice and simplify. Its also okay just to be a player with bad first touch and very little soccer IQ, as long as its meeting the players expectations.
We sometime forget that even a child has his/her own perspective and ambitions. Just recognize that they may or may not match yours, and certainly not USSF's.
CalSouth this weekend rolled out the modified laws of the game, complete with build out line, for 2008s and 2009s. I'm assuming this means all fall games for 2008/2009 will be required to implement? As I mentioned before, the summer tournaments seemed to be all over the place, and they didn't have it in place for some leagues in spring. Note too the offside rule modification....offsides only on the opposing 1/4 of the pitch....guess that will mean even more confusion as parents will keep yelling at refs "offsides" in now non-offside situations. 
I expect more teams will introduce the tactics we saw at some tournaments....keeper kicks it back to the big legged defender on the wing that boots it up the line.
http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Referees/2018/7v7.pdf
I expect more teams will introduce the tactics we saw at some tournaments....keeper kicks it back to the big legged defender on the wing that boots it up the line.
http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Referees/2018/7v7.pdf
Ugggg. More build up line confusion for dys first games. Both teams adopted the strategy of gk sends it to the defender who boots it after drawing in the forward opposing line sitting on the build up line. Ugly soccer
Ref insisted goalkeepers had to put it in play with a roll instead of a gk which I'm sure is wrong under at least the cal south rules. Also insisted the gk had to wait for the line to set on a save, which removes any chance for a fast break off the javelin, which may or may not be right under the rules (there's some ambiguity there). By second half both teams were parking their cf past the half in formerly offside positions waiting for the fast break. The offside rule in particular is a total mess. Hate this format and clearly not all the refs and coaches are getting it and since they are using the rules to their advantage it's not encouraging back passing at all. We backpassed more in classic format since dys had the option for a long ball which removed pressure. I've never had to lawyer a soccer game before
Ref insisted goalkeepers had to put it in play with a roll instead of a gk which I'm sure is wrong under at least the cal south rules. Also insisted the gk had to wait for the line to set on a save, which removes any chance for a fast break off the javelin, which may or may not be right under the rules (there's some ambiguity there). By second half both teams were parking their cf past the half in formerly offside positions waiting for the fast break. The offside rule in particular is a total mess. Hate this format and clearly not all the refs and coaches are getting it and since they are using the rules to their advantage it's not encouraging back passing at all. We backpassed more in classic format since dys had the option for a long ball which removed pressure. I've never had to lawyer a soccer game before
Keepermom2
GOLD
I watched 2 U12 games today officiated by the same refs who decided applying the modified rules of the game was how it was supposed to be for U12 girls which is not the way it was supposed to be done. If they had simply read the quick memo before each game http://media.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Referees/2018/9v9.pdf they would have seen what the rules should have been. I know the transition is painful but a 5 minute read before each game officiated would have prevented so much confusion. The team I was rooting for got an indirect kick because the opposing team headed the ball. A girl on the opposing team got a yellow card for not following the incorrect rules and the ref. had already told her once. The reason she didn't remember is because she wasn't trained that way and rightfully so. She is 11 years old. My 11 year struggles to remember to wash her hands after going to the bathroom that she has done 1,000's of times. I watched my goalkeeper daughter totally confused as to what was going on and I still don't think she understands. I didn't bother to explain. LOL I know a ref.'s job is a thankless one but please do some due diligence with the new rules to prevent so much confusion.
Sounds like your coach had no strategy on how to take away the options if the opposing team was doing that. Was this a Boys or Girls team? I know that there was no build out line at Silverlakes but a lot of the coaches placed some markers so the players can use it as a reference point.
Boys 08. We do fine without the build up line even under classic rules with no punt. A built out line + full stop takes away options. Coaches are using the defender boots it move because it works- the 9 or 11 previously in an offside position do great with it. 2/3 of our goals were on this gk. At one tournie in the summer I even saw a well respected high level club coach use it over and over. Doesn't teach very much but it's a winning strategy. You can't pass it out beyond the build up line because most coaches are lining up 3 players on the line...otherwise the gk could just smash it to 9 for the quick 1 v 1. The defender can't pass it back to the gk for the switch because the gk will be swarmed by 2 maybe 3 opponents before he can switch it. The long ball would force team to pull people back from the build line. This current rule gives you the worst of both worlds.
Hearing the teaching method of the coach, its apparent he has not shown the players how to create options which will hurt the team in the long run.
I dont mind the build out line for the purpose of building out. But for an offside line, it is really stupid. It teaches your backline to stick on the 18 and not push up to get involved in the attack.
I really wish someone at US Soccer would have put some pilot games in place to watch and see how coaches adapt to the new rules. And how they find ways to take advantage of things that are not in the spirit of the intended change.
I really wish someone at US Soccer would have put some pilot games in place to watch and see how coaches adapt to the new rules. And how they find ways to take advantage of things that are not in the spirit of the intended change.
Not the Coach. Coaches. This is now the 4th coach I've seen adopt this approach, including one which in our area everyone says is among the best. Not sure what else they could do. Kick it back to the keeper then the keeper is instantly pressed by 2 opponents really close to the goal...may teach the keeper the back pass but he's going to get killed doing it. Pass from the keeper to the winger? Keeper needs a leg that is high enough to get over the defenders on the build and far enough to get over the build. Few keepers at this age can do both. Defender who receives could dribble it (which is our back up move) but will be double teamed and 1/2 time will lose it. Defender could pass to the pressing 6 but again he's under pressure from 2 opponents and the 6 is in the center. Without spreading the opposing line with a punt there's no way most teams (except the most highly skilled teams) can do much more. If the keepers were allowed to kick it long maybe they could long ball it getting the other side guessing about whether to press or guard against the cherrypicking forward.
Problem is that at this age, kids should be spending a LOT of time in practice on skills, 1v1, 2v2, 3v2, etc.
In order to teach "building out of the back", you need to spend quite a bit of time rehearsing patterns and off the ball movement. It can be done. But if a kid can't collect a pass or pass properly, all of the pattern play in the world won't matter much. And for proper pattern play, it really helps to have a kid play the same position all the time. Not really best for overall development.
Pattern Play Example:
Keeper rolls it out to an outside back, who should be pretty far back. I've seen some of these outside players positioned really close to the BOL. This gives them no time to collect and think.
As the outside back receives the ball, the center mid makes a checking run to the top of the box. The outside mid stays wide. The center forward positions himself between the center mid and outside mid.
If the outside back plays to the checking center mid, that center mid can either turn, or play the ball back to the outside defender on the other side of the field, who then should have some time to dribble out and utilize the switch to get forward. If the checking center mid is covered, the outside mid or the center forward need to move to get open closer to the ball.
Here's a pretty good session on how it can look at practice:
But again - If your team can't get a decent touch on 75% of passes coming to them, all of the pattern play in the world won't make a difference.
Before the BOL, teams had a kid that would try to hoof it over the top. Some teams had this player, many don't. So a goal kick was usually an advantage for the other team. They just had to sit on the top of the penalty area and wait for the ball to hit them in the feet and then beat the keeper 1v1. Teams would try to counter this by having 3 kids inside the PA to help recover once the other team won the goal kick.
In order to teach "building out of the back", you need to spend quite a bit of time rehearsing patterns and off the ball movement. It can be done. But if a kid can't collect a pass or pass properly, all of the pattern play in the world won't matter much. And for proper pattern play, it really helps to have a kid play the same position all the time. Not really best for overall development.
Pattern Play Example:
Keeper rolls it out to an outside back, who should be pretty far back. I've seen some of these outside players positioned really close to the BOL. This gives them no time to collect and think.
As the outside back receives the ball, the center mid makes a checking run to the top of the box. The outside mid stays wide. The center forward positions himself between the center mid and outside mid.
If the outside back plays to the checking center mid, that center mid can either turn, or play the ball back to the outside defender on the other side of the field, who then should have some time to dribble out and utilize the switch to get forward. If the checking center mid is covered, the outside mid or the center forward need to move to get open closer to the ball.
Here's a pretty good session on how it can look at practice:
But again - If your team can't get a decent touch on 75% of passes coming to them, all of the pattern play in the world won't make a difference.
Before the BOL, teams had a kid that would try to hoof it over the top. Some teams had this player, many don't. So a goal kick was usually an advantage for the other team. They just had to sit on the top of the penalty area and wait for the ball to hit them in the feet and then beat the keeper 1v1. Teams would try to counter this by having 3 kids inside the PA to help recover once the other team won the goal kick.
Primetime
SILVER ELITE
Sorry but If your asking for real soccer your forgetting its a small sided game therefore it's not real soccer it's a modified version of it from the start. At the younger ages your team getting a goal kick shouldn't be a disadvantage which is what it turns into with out a buildout line. And don't even try to tell me punting is good for the game either. Goalies punting back and forth to eachother is a joke. Or better yet a goalie punting into the other teams 18 to a lone forward who crashes in for a goal. Your totally right, that's "The Beautiful Game" hahaha. The idea that's it's on the coach to teach the kids to play the right way is a fantasy, Your living in la la land and giving all these coaches too much credit. If that was the case I wouldn't have to watch game after game after after game after game of coaches and parents cheering for blasted punts that give up possessions half the time or more. Yesterday's a perfect example, watching half a dozen 06' games and on multiple occasions there's was possessions where the keepers punted back and forth to eachother 3-4 times in a row. That's terrible. Give me the buildout line back anyday. But by your guys theory lets go ahead and do away with Flag Football. I mean if you can't tackle it's completely useless right ?
You seem to be suggesting that all teams be required to play at the same level as the weakest.
Nope. I'm saying that teams that care to learn to use the build out line the right way can do it, but it's not easy.
Some teams are better than others, and that is unpleasant to the weak ones, so we are going to change the rules to take away the advantage of the strong teams.
Punting it to a loan striker whose sitting behind the defensive line should trigger an offside call. Inexperienced keepers punt it either into an offside position or into the scrum where possession is 50/50. Punting is an art which isn't coached well...the keeper should be taught to look for the open team mate, and if there isn't one, to go for the short distribution.
I don't have a problem with the build out line. I have a problem re the way CalSouth has implemented it. The removal of the offside rule to apply only behind the build out line is encouraging the defenders to boot it rather than truly build up. The counter is going to be some defender is going to have to drop back to cover the 9. A smart team would then have the 6/8 check and press into the now open center. The keepers also need a long option so that the opposition isn't stacked up on a line of scrimmage...they should allow the keeper to javelin throw on a fast break before the build up line is set, and to long ball goalkick it...with those changes you wouldn't have the forward offensive line sitting on that line of scrimmage.