Referees - what can we all do to improve the situation?

[Paul Spacey]

any rating system given by someone who is not qualified, and/or biased, is nothing more than a popularity poll. team managers and coaches are biased for sure, and many are not qualified to asses a referee performance.

if, team managers/coaches wouldn't waste their time complaining about the referee who made the wrong call on a throw in, or who missed the offside that cost them the game, and concentrated on reporting/complaining about the arrogant, belligerent referees who make the others look bad, or the "highly" overweight referees who can't move at all doing the U19 boys.... etc., then it's possible the league and referee associations could supply some eyes to target these particular offenders. But, it's like the boy who cried wolf with all the insane bitching about non-factors. there's not the resources to go check out every complaint when there are so many ridiculous unfounded ones.

I agree with you completely and of course you’re absolutely right; there are so many complaints (often sour grapes when a team loses) that you cannot possibly know what is a genuine complaint and separate them from the many stupid and unfair complaints.

I don’t know what the solution is. I guess the only benefit to a rating system is that the poorer referees would very likely get consistently lower ratings and would be highlighted in some way, even if most of the rating is being done by unqualified assessors (i.e. coaches and team managers).

The current system of “tough, we’re short of referees so you take what you’re given and accept it” isn’t working IMO. But ultimately, if there’s such a ref shortage, perhaps solving the problem is currently impossible. If coach/parent behavior improves and we get more referees involved in the game, then perhaps we can do something to weed out the really poor ones.

 

[Eagle33]

I agree with you completely and of course you’re absolutely right; there are so many complaints (often sour grapes when a team loses) that you cannot possibly know what is a genuine complaint and separate them from the many stupid and unfair complaints.

I don’t know what the solution is. I guess the only benefit to a rating system is that the poorer referees would very likely get consistently lower ratings and would be highlighted in some way, even if most of the rating is being done by unqualified assessors (i.e. coaches and team managers).

The current system of “tough, we’re short of referees so you take what you’re given and accept it” isn’t working IMO. But ultimately, if there’s such a ref shortage, perhaps solving the problem is currently impossible. If coach/parent behavior improves and we get more referees involved in the game, then perhaps we can do something to weed out the really poor ones.

100% correct. Impossible to solve.

 

[baldref]

I agree with you completely and of course you’re absolutely right; there are so many complaints (often sour grapes when a team loses) that you cannot possibly know what is a genuine complaint and separate them from the many stupid and unfair complaints.

I don’t know what the solution is. I guess the only benefit to a rating system is that the poorer referees would very likely get consistently lower ratings and would be highlighted in some way, even if most of the rating is being done by unqualified assessors (i.e. coaches and team managers).

The current system of “tough, we’re short of referees so you take what you’re given and accept it” isn’t working IMO. But ultimately, if there’s such a ref shortage, perhaps solving the problem is currently impossible. If coach/parent behavior improves and we get more referees involved in the game, then perhaps we can do something to weed out the really poor ones.

I’m not sure your description of tough, take what you get is completely accurate, but I get it. I’m thinking that the reason fir the so called shortage is the ever expanding youth soccer landscape. So many more games to cover.

Believe me, I’m sympathetic to a point to the fact that some of my brethren are very poor performers. It makes it more difficult for the moderate, good, and great referees to operate. But again, I think the percentages of decent referees compared to the poor performers isn’t nearly as bad as what some parents and coaches represent.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

any rating system given by someone who is not qualified, and/or biased, is nothing more than a popularity poll. team managers and coaches are biased for sure, and many are not qualified to asses a referee performance.

if, team managers/coaches wouldn't waste their time complaining about the referee who made the wrong call on a throw in, or who missed the offside that cost them the game, and concentrated on reporting/complaining about the arrogant, belligerent referees who make the others look bad, or the "highly" overweight referees who can't move at all doing the U19 boys.... etc., then it's possible the league and referee associations could supply some eyes to target these particular offenders. But, it's like the boy who cried wolf with all the insane bitching about non-factors. there's not the resources to go check out every complaint when there are so many ridiculous unfounded ones.

My system takes the bad reports into account. I am sure they will be drowned out and easy to spot. I am more worried about holding the 10% of horrendous egotistical referees accountable as well as some valuable feedback for myself.

For me, if I finish reffing a game and both teams are mad at me. I definitely do not listen to their accusations of my lack of knowledge of the game. However, I do reflect on WHY they are mad at me. Because if I did a better job at selling the calls, then my judgement wouldn't be questioned. That is the importance of the PRESCENCE score.

To me, I do not care about the unqualified persons opinion, however I do care about their general impression of me. To me that is extremely valuable, because we do not referee people with qualified opinions and certified training, we referee players and coaches without any of those things. Improving my Presence would help me manage players who do not care what the letter of the laws say. None of them care about the LOTG, they just care about winning, and we have to find a way to deal with them while upholding the thing they don't care about.

 

[sweeperkeeper]

100% correct. Impossible to solve.

It's not impossible to solve just no one wants to be the bad guy. In regards to how refs get treated, IMHO they need to be more aggressive in handling the offenders, the majority of the parents/coaches are good but the remaining 20% need to understand that they can easily be removed from the field. At my sons games this weekend, we had the opposing coach yelling across the field at the AR (the AR was correct). The issue got comical when the AR starting to explain her actions by yelling back. Eventually, they coach got carded but it should of happened way earlier.

I'm not sure if there was a way for refs to share notes about a team or parent but it might help. If a ref before a game knew that that team X had parents that are abusive then they could talk to the coach and team manager before the game before it starts to escalate. "Hey Coach. I heard we had a rough game last week. I'm here to have good game but would appreciate it we kept the sidelines positive."

Another option would be for every parent/coach that gets thrown out, that team is fined 100 dollars for the first offense, 200 for the second, etc. This puts the responsibility on the team to handle the problem parents versus putting it on the refs.

If there is a ref shortage, the very simple laws of supply and demand would dictate that you need to raise wages, but I'll digress.

 

[watfly]

any rating system given by someone who is not qualified, and/or biased, is nothing more than a popularity poll. team managers and coaches are biased for sure, and many are not qualified to asses a referee performance.

if, team managers/coaches wouldn't waste their time complaining about the referee who made the wrong call on a throw in, or who missed the offside that cost them the game, and concentrated on reporting/complaining about the arrogant, belligerent referees who make the others look bad, or the "highly" overweight referees who can't move at all doing the U19 boys.... etc., then it's possible the league and referee associations could supply some eyes to target these particular offenders. But, it's like the boy who cried wolf with all the insane bitching about non-factors. there's not the resources to go check out every complaint when there are so many ridiculous unfounded ones.

I agree that having the league or referee associations supplying some eyes would be much more effective than having a rating system alone. However, there are simple ways to eliminate some of the bias from a rating system if done right. If you have both coaches provide an evaluation your going to eliminate much of the bias. For example, say on a 1 to 5 scale, one coach gives a 1 and the other a 5. Then you can pretty much disregard either review. If both coaches give a 4 you can consider those reliable reviews, or any review within a point or two. More importantly than individual reviews would be evaluating the totality of the reviews. If a ref is getting a lot of 1 and 2's maybe that triggers a secret assessment of that ref. The league or association can then evaluate for themselves the potential problem ref and make a decision thereon. Use the reviews as a tool and not a decision maker to eliminate incompetent refs.

For refs to say that coaches aren't qualified to evaluate refs, is an example of the arrogance that needs to be done away with. I find most coaches to be reasonable even if they're looking out for the best interests of their team. Just this past weekend at our DA12 game (no AR's) a ball clearly went out on the other team. Of course, despite our coaches protest (there was a goal scored off a missed throw-in call earlier in the game) the ref was steadfast with his call until the other coach let the ref know that the ball indeed go out off one of his players. The ref reversed his call at that point. BTW, other than this ref struggling with the direction of throw-ins on numerous occasions, our DA refs have been excellent this year. They have been impressively good with offside calls despite the absence of AR's.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

I’m not sure your description of tough, take what you get is completely accurate, but I get it. I’m thinking that the reason fir the so called shortage is the ever expanding youth soccer landscape. So many more games to cover.

Believe me, I’m sympathetic to a point to the fact that some of my brethren are very poor performers. It makes it more difficult for the moderate, good, and great referees to operate. But again, I think the percentages of decent referees compared to the poor performers isn’t nearly as bad as what some parents and coaches represent.

Just last week I did a U12 Presidio game. The final score was 10-8 (ikr) and the lead changed like 5-7 times. It was a contentious game. There was one critical call that I absolutely blew. There was a deliberate pass back to the keeper from 2 feet away inside the 6yd box that I mistakenly interpreted as a trap and pounce by the keeper, but after discussion with my crew after the game, I realized I was wrong.
HOWEVER, I sold the shit out of that no call. My PRESENCE helped me diffuse the situation and the game continued without much complaint.
Why? Because I had established a repour with both teams, I showed I cared by running and strafing even in a U12 game, I was inside the 18 when I made the call. All my other calls were consistent and I carried the aura around me that I was overqualified for the game.

Both teams came up to me after the game and told me that was the best reffed game they have seen all year and wanted me back every week... Even though I blew a critical match incident. They had no idea I did or they forgot. And that is all thanks to PRESENCE, the most valuable skill a referee can have.

So yes, the rating would be a popularity contest, but winning that contest is an extremely valuable skill set for reffing. Being a referee is 25% knowing what you are doing and 75% looking like you know what you are doing. We are putting on a performance for the players and parents, and I want to see that performance score.

 

[focomoso]

Okay, let me take a stab at answering the original posters question: "What can we do?" Here is my prototype.
I agree we need some sort of survey or rating system, but there are several important components I think the rating system should have. A simple Uber score would be too generic.
Potential issues of a rating system: Bias, the fact that people are always more likely to go out of their way to complain than compliment, lack of knowledge and experience of the armchair referees, validity of the surveyed, and accountability.

So to solve some of those problems, the survey should be quick and mandatory to complete to fill out the score. Mandatory will help solve the problem of only the aggrieved speaking up. It should only be filled out by the team manager and they should get 1 survey per game. I think 1-10 is better than 1-5, but that is subjective.

Categories:
1) Fitness: This is an important factor that can be judged by the untrained eye to a degree
2)Presence: This is also a good measurement that I would trust the untrained parent to grade me on. It is also such a wonderfully vague word so parents don't realize that this is actually the most important grade they are giving.
3) Knowledge of the LOTG: This scoring area is actually a trap to help identify the bad reports. Any real complaints about missed LOTG will go in the comments section and will include the specific laws misapplied. All the people that just didn't like the refs foul calls/no-call will just put a 1 or 2 in this area and will say something vague and unsubstantiated in the comments.
4) Professionalism: key gauge for weeding out the egos and don't cares. Both for preventative and punitive purposes.
5)Other team's conduct: This is a check on the other teams report. It helps give a "grain of salt" factor to the other report. If both teams end up giving a 1 to each other, I think that says a lot in itself lol.

Furthermore, the survey should be viewable by the referee and the other team. The referee should also be able to comment and say something in response to any accusations. It would also help in constructive criticism for referees that want it.
Also, too many "wild reports" and your credibility score should be affected.

Of course, this rating system will have only a small impact on decision making, but I think it will separate the weed from the chaff. All the reviewed items on Amazon balance out even after the crazy 1 STAR reviews because 1 guy thought his headphones should vibrate. It should be weighted, or at least categorized, based on age level.

I like this a lot. Especially #5. If parents feel that they're being graded for their behavior, I think (hope) they may check themselves.

Yes, everyone is biased, but if you aggregate these results over a season, much of the bias cancels out. If a ref consistently scores well, they're likely better. If a team consistently scores poorly, there may be problems. If the team's scores are posted along with the standings, that public shaming may help.

However, there may be other biases thad don't cancel out (like, race and language and style of play), but something like this seems to be the best I can come up with.

But.... this will only work if some action is taken. We can collect all this data, but if the higher-scoring refs don't get more calls and if the lower-scoring refs don't get weeded out, then this won't help much at all. The trouble is - at least as I seems to be presented here - is that there's a shortage of good refs so even if a ref has a terrible score, you still need someone to cover the games that day and they'll still get the call.

 

[baldref]

I agree that having the league or referee associations supplying some eyes would be much more effective than having a rating system alone. However, there are simple ways to eliminate some of the bias from a rating system if done right. If you have both coaches provide an evaluation your going to eliminate much of the bias. For example, say on a 1 to 5 scale, one coach gives a 1 and the other a 5. Then you can pretty much disregard either review. If both coaches give a 4 you can consider those reliable reviews, or any review within a point or two. More importantly than individual reviews would be evaluating the totality of the reviews. If a ref is getting a lot of 1 and 2's maybe that triggers a secret assessment of that ref. The league or association can then evaluate for themselves the potential problem ref and make a decision thereon. Use the reviews as a tool and not a decision maker to eliminate incompetent refs.

For refs to say that coaches aren't qualified to evaluate refs, is an example of the arrogance that needs to be done away with. I find most coaches to be reasonable even if they're looking out for the best interests of their team. Just this past weekend at our DA12 game (no AR's) a ball clearly went out on the other team. Of course, despite our coaches protest (there was a goal scored off a missed throw-in call earlier in the game) the ref was steadfast with his call until the other coach let the ref know that the ball indeed go out off one of his players. The ref reversed his call at that point. BTW, other than this ref struggling with the direction of throw-ins on numerous occasions, our DA refs have been excellent this year. They have been impressively good with offside calls despite the absence of AR's.

Couple of points.... if there aren’t enough people from the leagues or associations to watch refs, how would there be enough to try to interpret your ratings? That adds more time and effort.

I said “some” coaches aren’t qualified to assess a referee. But extrapolate for your agenda if you like. Do away with my arrogance.

You can’t take the bias away no matter how much you think you can. Thats not a negative comment either. How can you be impartial when you care who wins or whom does well?

Your example of a goal off a missed thrown is and proof of a bias. Maybe you’re right and refs were wrong but if your team defended better on the thrown in it doesn’t matter.

 

[Paul Spacey]

CSL’s ref rating system covers some of what has been presented here and it’s definitely a step in the right direction. If it was open (available to view by everyone involved in CSL; coaches, managers, other refs) then it would be helpful IMO. I hope they will develop it further as it’s brand new right now so kind of in ‘test’ mode for this season I guess.

@Definitelynotanotherref has made some excellent posts and his point about wanting to know his rating rings true with me (I always wanted to know how I was being perceived by others when I was reffing regularly) and I think this would have an impact on most referees. If you know you are being graded/rated, I think it impacts your performance in the sense that you try to do the best job possible, rather than “using the game as just a warm down” like the ref I mentioned the other day.

A rating system seems like the most logical way to go. If it was open and transparent, I really do think it would motivate referees (and coaches/sidelines if they were rated too) to do better.

The ref shortage means those poor performers might not be immediately taken off all games but the mere fact they would be highlighted would serve two purposes; one, hopefully it would encourage those refs to try and do better (and have a better attitude) and two, it would give everyone an idea of what to expect going into games. You’d know if your opponents potentially have a crazy sideline and you’d know if the ref is likely to be poor. Just knowing this in advance would likely mean most of us go into the game with lower expectations; we might even then be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Mystery Train]

@Paul Spacey ... Great thread/topic. Well thought out, constructive and illuminating content by all. I don't know that we've exactly come up with solutions to the original question, but I do think I understand the problem better from reading all these responses.

 

[Paul Spacey]

@Paul Spacey ... Great thread/topic. Well thought out, constructive and illuminating content by all. I don't know that we've exactly come up with solutions to the original question, but I do think I understand the problem better from reading all these responses.

Thanks! We’ve had a lot of really great responses.

It’s a reminder that there are lots of knowledgeable people on this forum and if we put our heads together, we should be able to solve problems or at least come up with some potential solutions to try.

The rating system does seem to be something many people are open to and I personally think this is the best solution at the moment to at least have some accountability (for refs, coaches and sidelines).

 

[Overlap]

I noticed there are a number of threads regarding refs and parental/coach behavior recently. Here's another.

Below is a link to a video clip of a recent game I just saw online. Yes, the ref seems incompetent based on this short clip and the craziness of it just reminded me of what I’ve seen every weekend since the fall season kicked off (I’ve watched or coached around 20 games so far).

https://www.facebook.com/groups/socalsoccer/permalink/1129930933842712/

It’s nothing to do with sour grapes or moaning because my team or club lost a game (conversely, you’ll see from our CSL record that we are winning most of our games so far and I think that’s important to point out because often ref complaints come about when people are annoyed about a loss), it’s about addressing an issue which is a problem and feels like it is getting worse every season.

That could be my personal perspective but based on comments I read and hear regularly from other coaches and parents (and based on games I watch every weekend), it does seem to be the case that refereeing standards (and attitudes, importantly) are certainly not improving, even if at best they are not regressing.

This isn’t intended to be ref-bashing by the way; I’ve been a ref myself for a long time and try to support them as best I can. I just feel it’s reached a point where I’m struggling to now support the majority of the referees I see on a weekly basis (it’s not all refs but it is many of them unfortunately) because they are having issues with two things which directly influence how games progress and develop (and this affects the safety of players):

1. The laws of the game and knowing how to interpret them correctly.

2. Attitude and communication with players and coaches. There is a huge ‘us vs them’ issue (perhaps on both sides) and refs are increasingly rude and dismissive, refusing to communicate at all with either players or coaches.

The second point might be similar to how people sometimes explain police arrogance and brutality; police have to deal with a lot of sh*t and referees are in a similar position. Often, their decisions are questioned even when correct and so there is naturally probably an element of frustration and lack of patience on many referees’ parts. However, I personally don’t feel this has to be a case of “I know better than you so don’t dare question me” which is how I see and hear many refs reacting to any question, regardless of how the question is voiced.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, based on the level I officiated both in the UK and here in SoCal, invariably the opposite is true when I ask a question; I usually already know the point of law but I think it is fair to give refs a chance to briefly explain what they saw. Even better, I hope and pray they will do what I did plenty of times as a ref…admit they made a mistake! It’s ok, we all make mistakes. When you make one and cannot admit it, regardless of the situation (refereeing, life, whatever), invariably your refusal to admit an error makes a situation worse. If referee courses and information encouraged budding refs to be honest and admit errors, I can promise from experience that referees’ lives would be easier.

CSL have introduced a center referee rating system that I’m told will be shared with ref assignors so this might help them assign more games to the more competent refs. With the ref shortage though (there is still a shortage, right?), they can probably only do so much on this front. Does SCDSL have anything similar? I saw Michelle's email saying that they deal with ref issues swiftly but does anyone know exactly what they do?

Ideas and thoughts anyone? I’m always interested to hear what people’s views are on topics like this and I know this board has a lot of very informed parents and club officials, as well as many respected and knowledgeable referees.

I think it's fair to say that everyone contributes towards issues getting out of hand; coaches, parents and referees (even players sometimes). If we can come up with any measures or ideas to make the game experience better for our kids, we should put ego's aside and make it happen.

interesting post, we're now 4 games in and the ref's have been a bit all over the board so far. Last week our team had a tie game that had what I would probably call the worst ref crew in the first 4 games. Our HC shouted a question, "how was that offsides?" (as a player was clearly in position keeping our play on), to which the ref ran over to tell our HC, one more comment and you're out of here! Seriously, the HC can't ask a question? The ref continued to converse with the opposing team through out the game in Spanish, I'd care to guess of all the 50/50 calls, our team got 1 and yes, it did change the momentum of the game. I went to rate the ref crew and to my surprise, the rating is nothing more than a star system, basically, a waste of time and no place for comments. Last week we had what I thought was a fair ref crew, tough game however, we won. I had never seen the opposing team treat a ref crew so disrespectful, the asst. coach was shouting at the crew, their TA was incredibly rude, hurriedly signed the match forms and ripped one from the ref and all of this in front of the Ref evaluator! It really was a clean game for the most part, well played, just not the outcome they'd hoped. My point is, the ref's aren't perfect we'll get some calls and some we won't, the players have to deal with the good and the bad. I'd like to believe it's like the teams, they get better as the season goes on.....

 

[watfly]

Couple of points.... if there aren’t enough people from the leagues or associations to watch refs, how would there be enough to try to interpret your ratings? That adds more time and effort.

I said “some” coaches aren’t qualified to assess a referee. But extrapolate for your agenda if you like. Do away with my arrogance.

You can’t take the bias away no matter how much you think you can. Thats not a negative comment either. How can you be impartial when you care who wins or whom does well?

Your example of a goal off a missed thrown is and proof of a bias. Maybe you’re right and refs were wrong but if your team defended better on the thrown in it doesn’t matter.

Correct, I have no idea of the resources that the league or the associations are willing to commit to weeding out bad refs. But even you recommended sending some eyes out to watch refs. Instead of just doing it in a random, blanket manner at least you could do it on a targeted and exception basis with the reviews. This would actually result in a more cost effective identification of problem refs. I can tell you that with the right software it probably wouldn't take more than one employee to identify the worst reviewed refs for assessment by a qualified assessor.

I never blamed the ref for the goal, I said that was the reason for the coach's strong protest. I agree completely that our defense should have defended better; although, it was more due to a great glancing header by the opponent. As an FYI (not that you clearly care) when the ball went out the last touch was so clear to all the players that our team grabbed the ball and the other team retreated. I don't blame the ref for the goal, I credit the forwards great play, but there is an element of "but for" causation that exists.

My only agenda is that my son gets the best experience (training, coaching, friends, quality players etc) possible from club soccer. I prefer wins over losses, but I'll take a well played loss over a poorly played win any day of the week. I want all the kids to play well, even opponents, but I'm incredibly biased towards having my son play well.

We're all reviewed in our jobs. The clubs (or at least the ones I've been involved with) ask for reviews of the coach at year end. My son gets a written review once or twice a year from his coach and a defacto verbal one everyday of practice. Hell, my business gets multiple Yelp and Google (non-confidential) reviews on a daily basis. Why should refs be immune from reviews?

I'm not sure why you take these comments so personally, someone makes a comment about Grade 8 refs and you get your knickers in a wad. I have no reason to suspect that your are anything other than a great ref (although your judgment on the Surf Cup teriyaki bowls is a little suspect, seriously, what kind of meat was that? I'm not sure it was even chicken). I think this thread has been a great conversation and by far the most civil discussion regarding refs I've seen on this board. Is anything going to change? Probably not, but it's interesting to hear everyone's perspective.

 

[jrcaesar]

The ref continued to converse with the opposing team through out the game in Spanish,

This always amuses me: The boys on both teams are all speaking to each other in English only during the match, the referee speaks to coach and parents in English before the match, the referee speaks in Spanish to the players during the match.

 

[baldref]

Correct, I have no idea of the resources that the league or the associations are willing to commit to weeding out bad refs. But even you recommended sending some eyes out to watch refs. Instead of just doing it in a random, blanket manner at least you could do it on a targeted and exception basis with the reviews. This would actually result in a more cost effective identification of problem refs. I can tell you that with the right software it probably wouldn't take more than one employee to identify the worst reviewed refs for assessment by a qualified assessor.

I never blamed the ref for the goal, I said that was the reason for the coach's strong protest. I agree completely that our defense should have defended better; although, it was more due to a great glancing header by the opponent. As an FYI (not that you clearly care) when the ball went out the last touch was so clear to all the players that our team grabbed the ball and the other team retreated. I don't blame the ref for the goal, I credit the forwards great play, but there is an element of "but for" causation that exists.

My only agenda is that my son gets the best experience (training, coaching, friends, quality players etc) possible from club soccer. I prefer wins over losses, but I'll take a well played loss over a poorly played win any day of the week. I want all the kids to play well, even opponents, but I'm incredibly biased towards having my son play well.

We're all reviewed in our jobs. The clubs (or at least the ones I've been involved with) ask for reviews of the coach at year end. My son gets a written review once or twice a year from his coach and a defacto verbal one everyday of practice. Hell, my business gets multiple Yelp and Google (non-confidential) reviews on a daily basis. Why should refs be immune from reviews?

I'm not sure why you take these comments so personally, someone makes a comment about Grade 8 refs and you get your knickers in a wad. I have no reason to suspect that your are anything other than a great ref (although your judgment on the Surf Cup teriyaki bowls is a little suspect, seriously, what kind of meat was that? I'm not sure it was even chicken). I think this thread has been a great conversation and by far the most civil discussion regarding refs I've seen on this board. Is anything going to change? Probably not, but it's interesting to hear everyone's perspective.

My panties don’t get wadded too tight
Mostly I’m responding with a bit of facetious sarcasm. I might be a bit over reactive to the people that make comments about how the referees made them lose, or let their kid get hurt, or blah blah blah referees suck. But hey, nobody’s perfect, especially referees

 

[jpeter]

This always amuses me: The boys on both teams are all speaking to each other in English only during the match, the referee speaks to coach and parents in English before the match, the referee speaks in Spanish to the players during the match.

My son is in his 3rd year of Spanish now, he had that happen to him where the coach or refs revert to speaking Spanish because they can explain themselfs much better or quicker in their native language. He was seriously frustrated before not being able to understand or communicate more but has learned to speak and understand pretty well now, will surprise some when he answers back since the book doesn't match the cover.

 

[MWN]

With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:

1) Unless the game is filmed, ratings submitted by the teams are suspect given the bias of the losing/winning coach.
2) Most coaches at the non-DA and ECNL level do not have a firm grasp on the current IFAB, thus, ratings would be suspect.
3) A referee at the typical league/youth level is asked to referee between 3 to 5 games. Stamina on game 1 changes by the time we get to game 3 or 4 or 5.
4) Exposing younger referees to ratings would create a negative impact that would definitely make it harder to swell the ranks.

With regard to the thought experiment of weeding out certain referees its been underway for years but we have a problem, which is numbers are too low because of bad behavior.

I think most of you are seriously missing the point when it comes to youth soccer. We basically have 2 levels: Elite (DA/ECNL/ODP) and everybody else. This is supposed to be fun. Flight 3, Flight 2, Flight 1, Discovery, Bronze, Silver, Silver-Elite, Gold Premiere, AA-C, AA-A, etc., are all just advanced forms of recreational soccer. We are trying to create an environment where young people want to play soccer and hopefully, we find a 10 or 20 young people that have what it takes to go pro. Everybody else is supposed to just be having fun, getting exercise, learning life lesson about competition, spending times with family and friends, maybe getting seen by a college coach, all while playing soccer in MEANINGLESS games.

Whether the referee is good or bad, whether the coach is a screamer or passive spectator, whether the parents shout positive encouragement or are world-class A-holes all play into a single factor ... did the kids have fun playing a meaningless youth soccer game. That's it.

Every single referee is a member of a Referee Association. Every single fat, slow, bad referee is already known by that Referee Association. The better Referee Associations attempt to put the less capable referees on easier games. The leagues hire the Associations and the Assignors do their best to match the right referee with the right level. The fundamental problem for all the association is YOU F'ING parents and coaches are driving away our young referees before they can get the experience with your DUMBASS and INSULTING comments.

On behalf of every single referee, I implore you to just stop. SHUT UP. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. YOU PARENTS are ruing our chances to create better referees. Please stop.

 

[Paul Spacey]

With regard to all this rating system talk, the problem is:

1) Unless the game is filmed, ratings submitted by the teams are suspect given the bias of the losing/winning coach.
2) Most coaches at the non-DA and ECNL level do not have a firm grasp on the current IFAB, thus, ratings would be suspect.
3) A referee at the typical league/youth level is asked to referee between 3 to 5 games. Stamina on game 1 changes by the time we get to game 3 or 4 or 5.
4) Exposing younger referees to ratings would create a negative impact that would definitely make it harder to swell the ranks.

With regard to the thought experiment of weeding out certain referees its been underway for years but we have a problem, which is numbers are too low because of bad behavior.

I think most of you are seriously missing the point when it comes to youth soccer. We basically have 2 levels: Elite (DA/ECNL/ODP) and everybody else. This is supposed to be fun. Flight 3, Flight 2, Flight 1, Discovery, Bronze, Silver, Silver-Elite, Gold Premiere, AA-C, AA-A, etc., are all just advanced forms of recreational soccer. We are trying to create an environment where young people want to play soccer and hopefully, we find a 10 or 20 young people that have what it takes to go pro. Everybody else is supposed to just be having fun, getting exercise, learning life lesson about competition, spending times with family and friends, maybe getting seen by a college coach, all while playing soccer in MEANINGLESS games.

Whether the referee is good or bad, whether the coach is a screamer or passive spectator, whether the parents shout positive encouragement or are world-class A-holes all play into a single factor ... did the kids have fun playing a meaningless youth soccer game. That's it.

Every single referee is a member of a Referee Association. Every single fat, slow, bad referee is already known by that Referee Association. The better Referee Associations attempt to put the less capable referees on easier games. The leagues hire the Associations and the Assignors do their best to match the right referee with the right level. The fundamental problem for all the association is YOU F'ING parents and coaches are driving away our young referees before they can get the experience with your DUMBASS and INSULTING comments.

On behalf of every single referee, I implore you to just stop. SHUT UP. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. YOU PARENTS are ruing our chances to create better referees. Please stop.

You make some fair points and nobody would disagree with you that parents (and coaches to an extent) need to learn to shut up and not throw in flippant, uneducated soccer comments just because they feel they have a right to be obnoxious. I also agree with you that most youth soccer games are essentially meaningless (in the sense that they are not the World Cup, they are just about helping young people develop on and off the field). All of us are sometimes guilty of placing too much value on a kids' soccer game.

That said, I have a different view to you on the potential rating system. Most of us are rated/reviewed in our lives and often by people who are not experts in our field. We all get to rate our Uber drivers, despite many of us being poor drivers ourselves (the standard of driving in LA is horrendous, why does nobody use their blinkers?!) but we rate the drivers on their attitude, friendliness and ability to get us safely from A-to-B in a clean, safe car. Most of us are not chefs, yet we rate restaurants on Yelp. Very few of us are hoteliers, yet we rate hotels on Expedia.

Parents should clearly have no input in terms of a referee rating system but having the coaches rate the refs (and vice-versa along with rating the sidelines/parents also) would be a positive step IMO. Transparency is almost always a positive thing; let's face it, we don't have enough of it in many areas of life, especially things like politics (I'm not wading into that sh** though!)

A single rating (or even a small number of ratings) can always be suspect and there will be bias involved. Yes, some coaches would lie and rate refs badly (perhaps it would also happen the other way around) but ultimately over time, with lots of ratings, you are going to get an average. Even if coaches cannot rate referees on the LOTG (because they don't understand them), they can rate on communication and player safety relatively objectively.

Your point about young referees not being rated seems like a fair one although I personally don't agree that it would be negative and deter refs from officiating just because they might get a low rating from time to time. Young refs have already been rated or graded for many years via school so they have been exposed to good and bad ratings.

At my club, we rate our young players after each game (they are not rated on performance, skills, tricks or any of that stuff; they are rated solely on their effort and attitude towards teammates, opponents and match officials) and it has been extremely positive since we introduced it. In fact, it has been a hugely beneficial contributor towards promoting behavior change and attitude improvement, things we really focus on with our young players.

I guess my main thought is that an open, transparent rating system where everyone is essentially being assessed/rated (coaches, refs, parents) could only be a positive thing overall. That's how I see it from my perspective anyway; of course, not everyone will agree.

 

[Mystery Train]

(the standard of driving in LA is horrendous, why does nobody use their blinkers?!)

Answer: Because if you put your blinker on to change lanes, all the a-holes behind you speed up and block you off. When I change lanes on the freeway, the drivers behind me are kept on a strict "need to know" basis. #LAblinkerConfidential