Quick offside question
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futboldad1
PREMIER
While what you are saying is common sense and used to be correct, a rule change 3 years ago means unsuccessful attempted blocks apparently do reset offside as the defender deliberately made a play on the ball. It's not about control, it's about any deliberate play. Dumb imo but that's what they changed it to. Half the refs call it, half do not... as half don't know what's correct anymore. V bad rule modification.
That’s what I said to the ref on Saturday. Exactly this “the rule changed 2 years ago. Deliberate play resets the offside.”
Oh well.
futboldad1
PREMIER
You're absolutely correct, Tim. But honestly the change it is totally counter productive
I have no dog in this fight but this is what the national ref instructor from askasoccerreferee.com recently said related to this topic:
"In the case of Law 11, intervening contacts are important only if they involve a defender and the critical question is whether the contact is a “play” (briefly, “possessed and controlled”) or a deflection/rebound. If the decision is that the ball merely rebounded (deflected, bounced off, touched but not directed) from the defender or was deliberately “saved” by a defender, then any attacker who was in an offside position at the start of this segment of play (which began when the attacker’s teammate last played the ball) is still in an offside position and thus is not allowed to become involved in active play. "
"In the case of Law 11, intervening contacts are important only if they involve a defender and the critical question is whether the contact is a “play” (briefly, “possessed and controlled”) or a deflection/rebound. If the decision is that the ball merely rebounded (deflected, bounced off, touched but not directed) from the defender or was deliberately “saved” by a defender, then any attacker who was in an offside position at the start of this segment of play (which began when the attacker’s teammate last played the ball) is still in an offside position and thus is not allowed to become involved in active play. "
GunninGopher
SILVER ELITE
An intentionally blocked or deflected ball DOES NOT reset offside. It has to be a deliberate play, such as a pass. A block does not constitute a play on the ball. See the notes I provided in an earlier post.
In Watfly's quote referring to Law 11 above, a play is described as "possessed and controlled". This precludes a block, because there is no possession.
This one really isn't that hard to officiate.
futboldad1
PREMIER
We should get @Surfref in here as I think he would disagree with you. In principle I agree with your post, but your last paragraph is wrong as five different refs can't seem to agree what the call is...
For the record, I hope you are right and what I've been told by referees is wrong. Ball should be under control. Let's see how this shakes out.
Surfref
PREMIER
Law 11: Offside is really not that difficult to understand or interpret. It only takes up three pages of the LOTG. For comparison Law 1: The Field takes up 9 pages. For the Referees, I intentionally simplified the explanation to hopefully make it easier for the non-referees to understand.
First of all, stop using the word "Blocked" or "Block" since it is not included in the LOTG or interpretation in the "Other Advice" section of the LOTG. http://www.theifab.com/laws Pages 97 and 202 for Law 11 and Other Advice.
If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, which includes sticking their leg out, using their chest, shoulder, hip, or head to redirect the path of the ball, a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside. The offside interpretation was modified with the huge LOTG change in the 2016/2017 edition.
There are several criteria to determine if a violation of Law 11 exists. A player being in an offside position is just one of those criteria and is not a violated of Law 11 if the players is in an offside position. One of the other criteria is that the ball must be played by a teammate to the player in an offside position. The change is how we look at what used to be called a deflection or play on the ball. If a defender deliberately attempts to play (redirect) a pass to a player in an offside position and makes contact with the ball regardless or not if redirection (went where the defender wanted the ball to go) was successful, that defender's action is now determined to be that “they played the ball.” There is nothing in Law 11 that says the defender has to have the ball under control. A player in an offside position cannot be in violation of Law 11 if the ball is played to them by an opponent.
Both of these videos show a player in an offside position and the ball is deliberately played and redirected, very slightly in the header, by a defender to an attacker in an offside position causing no violation of Law 11. The first one is a deliberate play to try to redirect a pass and the second is a deliberate header to try to redirect a pass (cross). Both videos show good goals and were used in the RPD training (Referee Professional Development and during PRO Referee (MLS) training.
1)
https://youtu.be/yaAXDxo4qHs
2)
https://youtu.be/O9Z9DJmyKn8
First of all, stop using the word "Blocked" or "Block" since it is not included in the LOTG or interpretation in the "Other Advice" section of the LOTG. http://www.theifab.com/laws Pages 97 and 202 for Law 11 and Other Advice.
If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, which includes sticking their leg out, using their chest, shoulder, hip, or head to redirect the path of the ball, a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside. The offside interpretation was modified with the huge LOTG change in the 2016/2017 edition.
There are several criteria to determine if a violation of Law 11 exists. A player being in an offside position is just one of those criteria and is not a violated of Law 11 if the players is in an offside position. One of the other criteria is that the ball must be played by a teammate to the player in an offside position. The change is how we look at what used to be called a deflection or play on the ball. If a defender deliberately attempts to play (redirect) a pass to a player in an offside position and makes contact with the ball regardless or not if redirection (went where the defender wanted the ball to go) was successful, that defender's action is now determined to be that “they played the ball.” There is nothing in Law 11 that says the defender has to have the ball under control. A player in an offside position cannot be in violation of Law 11 if the ball is played to them by an opponent.
Both of these videos show a player in an offside position and the ball is deliberately played and redirected, very slightly in the header, by a defender to an attacker in an offside position causing no violation of Law 11. The first one is a deliberate play to try to redirect a pass and the second is a deliberate header to try to redirect a pass (cross). Both videos show good goals and were used in the RPD training (Referee Professional Development and during PRO Referee (MLS) training.
1)
https://youtu.be/yaAXDxo4qHs
2)
https://youtu.be/O9Z9DJmyKn8
baldref
GOLD
concur. both of those instances show a player playing the ball. not "making a save" attempt (blocking the ball).
https://www.proassistantreferees.com/deliberate-deflection/
https://www.proassistantreferees.com/deliberate-deflection/
Surfref
PREMIER
I was not even going to go down the "Deliberate Save" road. It would just lead to more arguing and confusion.
I had one of those "Deliberate Save" Offside calls this past weekend while I was in the center and the fairly new 16y/o girl AR nailed the call. At halftime some grumpy old guy that we all know who is a referee and coach came over to tell her she was wrong. I had to explain to him why she was absolutely correct and he was wrong. It was sort of satisfying to see her smile and watch the grumpy guy walk away with his head down.
Surfref
PREMIER
I understood what you were implying by Blocking, but it was clear that some people did not understand and were just making things worse.
baldref
GOLD
that's my goal. making things worse. glad to be of service.
I just wanted to make the point that just because someone stuck a foot out and the ball bounced off of it, that isn't an automatic offside reset. more often it's not.
@fuboldad1 and @timbuck, the rule changed ... but the concept of "deliberate" did not. Just as in handling, the distance between when the ball is kicked versus where the defender makes contact with the ball is a significant factor. In the case of a challenge where the stricker and defenders are a yard apart, the defender's attempt to block the shot by sticking their leg out is not a "deliberate play" on the ball. Just like when a ball is kicked and hits a defender 5 yards away in the hand/arm (in a natural position) is generally not handling, because the defender had no time to react. The further the defender is from the original kick makes it more likely that the Referee will find a deliberate play has occurred.
As it was explained to me, "we do not reward sucky play" if a defender misplays the ball ... too bad, offside resets. But , we are not changing the law to prevent defensive challenges.
futboldad1
PREMIER
I truly hope you are right as it would be common sense.
However, this is what I was told, "If in the opinion of the referee the player makes a deliberate attempt to play the ball, which includes sticking their leg out to block a through ball or pass, and makes contact, the player in an offside position is not deemed to have received the ball from a teammate but from an opponent and would not be in violation of Law 11 Offside. The offside interpretation was changed with the huge LOTG change in June 2015."
Again, I am not trying to argue with you and understand you are a very knowledgeable poster. I just want to get to the bottom of it once and for all.
The IFAB Law states:
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.
A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).
I think the difference is you must take into account whether it was a save or not. Almost all instances of a defender "blocking" the ball by throwing their leg out AND offside is at issue occurs on the near the defender's goal.A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).
This makes sense. The girl tried to block the ball from going to the attacker 2 yards past her. Instead it deflected off the side of her chest, went to the attacker, who then had a break away and scored. No offside.
Unfortunately it was with 20 seconds to go and we lost the final.
Surfref
PREMIER
And, how is a player deliberately sticking their leg out to block/deflect/redirect not a deliberate play on the ball on the ball? Did the player knowingly put their leg out to keep a pass from going past them to an opponent? Then that is a deliberate play! RPD is held monthly at numerous locations in So Cal, so go attend a session and ask the offside deliberate play question and I can guarantee you will walk away with a different and correct understanding of the concept. Evidently you did not watch the videos I posted because one displays almost exactly what you say.