GDA relegation or profit

[MWN]

I Can't thank you enough for all the information. Thanks for helping us out.
To be a devils advocate though this thread really was an example of what clubs are selling us. They say things like we should not be in C DA "because it's a bad team", or they say X DA "will lose all the time".
It's been a bad couple of months for trash talking and it's not parent driven.
What is your take on that?

I think you know what I'm going to say, but I'll say it anyway. On the surface, I would hope all parents, whether DA or Flight 3/Bronze would have the intelligence to see through the sales B.S., but with your examples: "...we should not be in C DA "because it's a bad team", or they say X DA "will lose all the time"." The proper response should be "Um, OK, duly noted, but let's talk about how your club is better equipped to develop my player?" You can then use the same 7 "Key Development" criteria that US Soccer uses and talk to the DOC or Coach about:

1. Player Development Effectiveness
2. Staff Leadership, Structure and Qualifications
3. Style of Play and Philosophy
4. Training Environment and Personal Development
5. Facilities and Infrastructure
6. Respect [for all including other clubs]
7. Resources​

Now, if we take look at the motivation of a parent (v. US Soccer) we can understand that a parent might place value of "wins" versus "losses," and that parent may be making the right move for their kid by picking teams with better players (if that player is a projected starter). Having a child on a DA team greatly increases the weight of that child's resume when it comes to college scholarship opportunities. So, from a parent perspective "the better team" may be a better decision, assuming all else is equal. A projected bench player is likely making a mistake, however, and should choose a DA team that is not as strong because that player has a better chance of standing out and being seen on a poor squad v. a good squad. Just like we have seen with the girls ECNL, just being on an ECNL team is also benefit and opens doors.

In other words, parental motivations (college) are often times at odds with US Soccer's motivations (finding National Team players). For this reason, US Soccer has shaped the DA into a pyramid with many U12 teams (base of the pyramid) to only a few U18 teams (top of the pyramid). The better players will filter up and the clubs with teams at the top of the pyramid will be those clubs the fully fund their DA programs. At this time, its looking like the MLS teams will be the only ones at the top very shortly on the boys side, and the jury is still out on the Girls side.

@SDsun, I think on the girls side, the National Team will continue to pull players from a more diverse cross-section (ECNL, ODP, National Cup caliber teams and eventually the college ranks) primarily because the Girls DA will take many years to prove itself out. The no HS rule has many top level players that want to play HS staying with ECNL teams. Because we are not close (and may never be there) with fully funded residential programs with girls, the National Team ranks will continue to have more diversity than the boys side. On the boys side the younger national teams are now very heavily weighted with Boys DA players (e.g. Boys U16 National Team - https://www.ussoccer.com/us-under16-boys-national-team/roster#tab-1 has 2 players not from a DA Club (kid from Chivas USA and Santa Barbara SC)), so I generally agree with you as it relates to the girls at this time, but disagree to the extent that your comment is inconsistent with the goals of the Girls DA program and where it hopes to be 10 years from now.

@Nutmeg, I'll take that as a compliment, but alas I only hold an E-License and I'm not qualified to be a DOC at a DA (I think you need an A or B) and I believe coaches need better than a D (but it could be a C) ... I also do not coach (I'm a Ref). With regard to your other comment (... hard earned money), the ultimate goal of the DA is fully funded programs that are built with MLS and large club dollars so parents are paying hard earned money and good players are not priced out of the program. Some of the boys programs have gotten there, but the girls programs are a long way off. Its the same consideration as being a parent of an ECNL player ... expensive. As far as what US Soccer (will do) with the Girls DA, we'll just agree to disagree. If I was a parent of a young lady good enough to entertain the DA or ECNL teams, my focus would be on college opportunities/scholarships and not the National Team.

 

[Nutmeg]

I think you know what I'm going to say, but I'll say it anyway. On the surface, I would hope all parents, whether DA or Flight 3/Bronze would have the intelligence to see through the sales B.S., but with your examples: "...we should not be in C DA "because it's a bad team", or they say X DA "will lose all the time"." The proper response should be "Um, OK, duly noted, but let's talk about how your club is better equipped to develop my player?" You can then use the same 7 "Key Development" criteria that US Soccer uses and talk to the DOC or Coach about:

1. Player Development Effectiveness
2. Staff Leadership, Structure and Qualifications
3. Style of Play and Philosophy
4. Training Environment and Personal Development
5. Facilities and Infrastructure
6. Respect [for all including other clubs]
7. Resources​

Now, if we take look at the motivation of a parent (v. US Soccer) we can understand that a parent might place value of "wins" versus "losses," and that parent may be making the right move for their kid by picking teams with better players (if that player is a projected starter). Having a child on a DA team greatly increases the weight of that child's resume when it comes to college scholarship opportunities. So, from a parent perspective "the better team" may be a better decision, assuming all else is equal. A projected bench player is likely making a mistake, however, and should choose a DA team that is not as strong because that player has a better chance of standing out and being seen on a poor squad v. a good squad. Just like we have seen with the girls ECNL, just being on an ECNL team is also

In other words, parental motivations (college) are often times at odds with US Soccer's motivations (finding National Team players). For this reason, US Soccer has shaped the DA into a pyramid with many U12 teams (base of the pyramid) to only a few U18 teams (top of the pyramid). The better players will filter up and the clubs with teams at the top of the pyramid will be those clubs the fully fund their DA programs. At this time, its looking like the MLS teams will be the only ones at the top very shortly on the boys side, and the jury is still out on the Girls side.

@SDsun, I think on the girls side, the National Team will continue to pull players from a more diverse cross-section (ECNL, ODP, National Cup caliber teams and eventually the college ranks) primarily because the Girls DA will take many years to prove itself out. The no HS rule has many top level players that want to play HS staying with ECNL teams. Because we are not close (and may never be there) with fully funded residential programs with girls, the National Team ranks will continue to have more diversity than the boys side. On the boys side the younger national teams are now very heavily weighted with Boys DA players (e.g. Boys U16 National Team - https://www.ussoccer.com/us-under16-boys-national-team/roster#tab-1 has 2 players not from a DA Club (kid from Chivas USA and Santa Barbara SC)), so I generally agree with you as it relates to the girls at this time, but disagree to the extent that your comment is inconsistent with the goals of the Girls DA program and where it hopes to be 10 years from now.

@Nutmeg, I'll take that as a compliment, but alas I only hold an E-License and I'm not qualified to be a DOC at a DA (I think you need an A or B) and I believe coaches need better than a D (but it could be a C) ... I also do not coach (I'm a Ref). With regard to your other comment (... hard earned money), the ultimate goal of the DA is fully funded programs that are built with MLS and large club dollars so parents are paying hard earned money and good players are not priced out of the program. Some of the boys programs have gotten there, but the girls programs are a long way off. Its the same consideration as being a parent of an ECNL player ... expensive. As far as what US Soccer (will do) with the Girls DA, we'll just agree to disagree. If I was a parent of a young lady good enough to entertain the DA or ECNL teams, my focus would be on college opportunities/scholarships and not the National Team.

Cool we agree on some things disagree on others. Mostly agree on focusing on your DD and on College opportunities rather than chasing the carrot of USSDA national team etc.

 

[espola]

But WE do. We are SoCal, we can't help ourselves. We are the "scorpion" in MAP's joke. I bet that if you offered the top 50 DA players in each age group a full scholarship to their college of choice but they had to play on a bronze level team (with great coaching), you'd find few takers.

I'll take that bet.

 

[Striker17]

My point is that the talking points of DA while exciting to many are just that talk. Is DA really giving the majority of players better options or fewer ones. Very few nationally will make a national training camp. Yet the narrative that many parents hear and believe is that their DD has a better chance by simply being on DA. When in reality maybe having more options, high school, ecnl, ODP, ID2 etc was better. Outliers exist sure but they also exist outside of DA. Good teams exist outside of DA. The US soccer/club hype machine is in full steam ahead mode.

I never doubted that.
I am simply pointing out that when you speak about relegation etc it's also funny that parents believe no minutes or few minutes on a great DA team matter- because they don't. Reserve playing on DA not good.

 

[El Clasico]

I was told on good authority that at least one DA club director was given a timeframe of two years to make his DA teams competitive or have the designation pulled. Now I don't know how "competitive" is defined by them, but it makes sense that they would try to protect their league by eliminating clubs that struggle. It's a quandary though because they are trying to elevate "development" but the member clubs are still concerned about all the things (wins, marketing, money) that the existing system values. The success or failure of the DA will only be evident over a span of years. For this season, it's going to be a dog's breakfast, particularly in the older levels where more players may have stayed in the ECNL rather than make a change late in the recruitment process. If the DA teams struggle will there be any patience to stick it out? Or will parents panic and jump back to ECNL? Unless all the DA teams are fully funded, it's just an ECNL alternative with different rules rather than a truly new system.

I am continuously fascinated by these threads. There seems to be no shortage of people that live and breath every word dripping from the mouths of the Clubs and US Soccer. I have it on good authority?? 2 years? You mean like do on the boys side? Stick it out or jump ship?? Why would a parent stick anything out? This roller coaster ride isn't for the benefit of my children so why wouldn't I "jump ship" if it isn't working? My child has only a limited time before they move on to their next stage in life. US Soccer hasn't figured out anything on the boys side in their first 10 years, why would I serve my child up as their guinea pig. I appreciate that there are plenty of parents that wouldn't bat an eye at sacrificing their child for the long term benefit of someone else's goals but my priority is my children and my children only!! My children want to win a few medals along the way, I am all for it. Again, I could give a rat's a** about US Soccer and their goals and they could care less about mine so we work well together. Having dealt with it on the boys side, it reminds me of the old saying...Who you going to believe? US Soccer? A Club DOC? A Club Coach who would have trouble finding a job if he couldn't juggle a soccer ball? Or your lying eyes?

 

[Nutmeg]

I never doubted that.
I am simply pointing out that when you speak about relegation etc it's also funny that parents believe no minutes or few minutes on a great DA team matter- because they don't. Reserve playing on DA not good.

If USSDA really wanted a true academy it would start at U6-U12, Their would be 6 DA teams in Socal and the system of how players were evaluated or selected to play on those teams would be different. At U14 give me a break. Players are who they are at 14. If my DA team is losing by more than 3 goals a game all year. That means the coach has players that he needs to spend time on learning skills and tactics that should have been developed long ago. This is the US not France or Spain. There's no 5'3 crafty center mids in our US system. Why? Because the big fast goal scoring ball over the top or played out wide to the fast playing girl is the metric. Right now it's the system. So rather than try to fit your DD into that maybe find the best place for your DD. Parents buying into the DA and club marketing BS is at times troubling. Clubs don't develope they are a for profit enterprise. Clubs provide a place for your DD to play soccer. DA is not free, it's not a true academy. DA at its core is a marketing enterprise to feed the US Soccer machine. Whether your DD goes to UCLA or UCSB matters little to them. Whether your DD starts or transfers after her first year matters little, whether your DD received athletic $ or walked on matters little.

 

[Mystery Train]

I am continuously fascinated by these threads. There seems to be no shortage of people that live and breath every word dripping from the mouths of the Clubs and US Soccer. I have it on good authority?? 2 years? You mean like do on the boys side? Stick it out or jump ship?? Why would a parent stick anything out? This roller coaster ride isn't for the benefit of my children so why wouldn't I "jump ship" if it isn't working? My child has only a limited time before they move on to their next stage in life. US Soccer hasn't figured out anything on the boys side in their first 10 years, why would I serve my child up as their guinea pig. I appreciate that there are plenty of parents that wouldn't bat an eye at sacrificing their child for the long term benefit of someone else's goals but my priority is my children and my children only!! My children want to win a few medals along the way, I am all for it. Again, I could give a rat's a** about US Soccer and their goals and they could care less about mine so we work well together. Having dealt with it on the boys side, it reminds me of the old saying...Who you going to believe? US Soccer? A Club DOC? A Club Coach who would have trouble finding a job if he couldn't juggle a soccer ball? Or your lying eyes?

If you think I am living and dying by any of this, you're confusing me with someone else. My kid isn't DA or ECNL, but I am completely intrigued by the forces at play here thus my comments.

 

[LadiesMan217]

Will U.S. Soccer relegate clubs out of GDA after this season or is profit and politics more important? After seeing the scores posted across the country and especially in the Southwest Division it is clear some clubs suck. Be honest with yourself, those teams will not get any better as far a competing against the top quality clubs even if they throw full scholarships at parents. How many years does U.S. Soccer give them?

I would more be looking forward to some clubs getting relegated because they do not train the players. I know a few clubs and coaches are now being exposed for what they are since they are under observation. My kid has played on what many consider the #1 club and I can tell you they did little to nothing to develop her. Playing at the highest level against the best girls is how she developed and I know that is not enough. I have seen the Pateadores and LA Galaxy team training this year and can tell you even though those teams might only finish mid-pack this year they will come out on top from a development perspective. The Slammers, Blues, and West Coast girls will continue to get the same - scrimmage around, take a few shots on goals, do some basic drills - they will be more physically fit though. Blues won't be on top because their best girls are not in DA. Parents and players will continue to buy into the crap. My kid has played in those environments so I know exactly what is going on. Take the best players and put them under some of the coaches/teams that will be mid pack this year and US Soccer WILL benefit. When the season is over nothing will have changed except some girls will actually know the game - they will be coming from non-ECNL clubs.

 

[LadiesMan217]

I would more be looking forward to some clubs getting relegated because they do not train the players. I know a few clubs and coaches are now being exposed for what they are since they are under observation. My kid has played on what many consider the #1 club and I can tell you they did little to nothing to develop her. Playing at the highest level against the best girls is how she developed and I know that is not enough. I have seen the Pateadores and LA Galaxy team training this year and can tell you even though those teams might only finish mid-pack this year they will come out on top from a development perspective. The Slammers, Blues, and West Coast girls will continue to get the same - scrimmage around, take a few shots on goals, do some basic drills - they will be more physically fit though. Blues won't be on top because their best girls are not in DA. Parents and players will continue to buy into the crap. My kid has played in those environments so I know exactly what is going on. Take the best players and put them under some of the coaches/teams that will be mid pack this year and US Soccer WILL benefit. When the season is over nothing will have changed except some girls will actually know the game - they will be coming from non-ECNL clubs.

Lambchop - what do you disagree with?

 

[chargerfan]

I took @Striker17 's suggestion, and looked at some match reports. I can't say I am surprised that there are girls getting 10-20 minutes per game. These are the coaches that we already knew cared more about winning than development. If I were looking for my dd to join a DA team, I would be looking at these to see which coaches are at least attempting to give somewhat equal play time. Shame on any coach that is giving girls 15 minutes of play time when you are up by 4-5 goals.

 

[El Clasico]

Lambchop - what do you disagree with?

He has no idea what he is disagreeing with. I would bet money he is either illiterate or a 5 year old that messes around with daddy's computer and found some emoji's to play with. He disagrees with both sides of every argument or marks them all dumb. I guess he could be a coach.

 

[Monkey]

I took @Striker17 's suggestion, and looked at some match reports. I can't say I am surprised that there are girls getting 10-20 minutes per game. These are the coaches that we already knew cared more about winning than development. If I were looking for my dd to join a DA team, I would be looking at these to see which coaches are at least attempting to give somewhat equal play time. Shame on any coach that is giving girls 15 minutes of play time when you are up by 4-5 goals.

The match reports are great. It is a great tool to vet coaches and see who the crazy parents are that drive their kid an hour+ to practice x 4 a week to ride the pine. Practice with high caliber kids is great but if you never great in the game you will never advance. It would be better for these pine riders to play with the ECNL team in their club, one of the few DPL teams that might be good or a top Flight 1 club for more playing time.

 

[MakeAPlay]

I would more be looking forward to some clubs getting relegated because they do not train the players. I know a few clubs and coaches are now being exposed for what they are since they are under observation. My kid has played on what many consider the #1 club and I can tell you they did little to nothing to develop her. Playing at the highest level against the best girls is how she developed and I know that is not enough. I have seen the Pateadores and LA Galaxy team training this year and can tell you even though those teams might only finish mid-pack this year they will come out on top from a development perspective. The Slammers, Blues, and West Coast girls will continue to get the same - scrimmage around, take a few shots on goals, do some basic drills - they will be more physically fit though. Blues won't be on top because their best girls are not in DA. Parents and players will continue to buy into the crap. My kid has played in those environments so I know exactly what is going on. Take the best players and put them under some of the coaches/teams that will be mid pack this year and US Soccer WILL benefit. When the season is over nothing will have changed except some girls will actually know the game - they will be coming from non-ECNL clubs.

This man is woke! Now you are starting to sound like me @LadiesMan217

 

[bababooey]

I took @Striker17 's suggestion, and looked at some match reports. I can't say I am surprised that there are girls getting 10-20 minutes per game. These are the coaches that we already knew cared more about winning than development. If I were looking for my dd to join a DA team, I would be looking at these to see which coaches are at least attempting to give somewhat equal play time. Shame on any coach that is giving girls 15 minutes of play time when you are up by 4-5 goals.

I agree with you chargerfan, but it has only been one game. I would start drawing some conclusions after half the season is completed. Looking at some of the match reports, I think it is possible a girl played only 15 minutes because she is coming off an injury or maybe she has missed some recent practices, so the coach will give the player(s) that have been at every practice recently a reward of starting and/or playing the bulk of the minutes.

 

[bababooey]

If USSDA really wanted a true academy it would start at U6-U12, Their would be 6 DA teams in Socal and the system of how players were evaluated or selected to play on those teams would be different. At U14 give me a break. Players are who they are at 14. If my DA team is losing by more than 3 goals a game all year. That means the coach has players that he needs to spend time on learning skills and tactics that should have been developed long ago. This is the US not France or Spain. There's no 5'3 crafty center mids in our US system. Why? Because the big fast goal scoring ball over the top or played out wide to the fast playing girl is the metric. Right now it's the system. So rather than try to fit your DD into that maybe find the best place for your DD. Parents buying into the DA and club marketing BS is at times troubling. Clubs don't develope they are a for profit enterprise. Clubs provide a place for your DD to play soccer. DA is not free, it's not a true academy. DA at its core is a marketing enterprise to feed the US Soccer machine. Whether your DD goes to UCLA or UCSB matters little to them. Whether your DD starts or transfers after her first year matters little, whether your DD received athletic $ or walked on matters little.

Nutmeg, I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Yes, if the USSDA really cared about world-class players, then we would model our system like those in Europe of South America. I don't think it will happen, but one can hope.

Here is what concerns me about the DA system (boys at this time)......how many world-class players has the USSDA produced to this point? I honestly don't know. You cannot say Pulisic, as he was trained in Europe. I am sure there are some very promising players in the BDA, but if you look at the Gold Cup and the World Cup Qualifiers, which DA players are making an impact on the USMNT?

 

[chargerfan]

I agree with you chargerfan, but it has only been one game. I would start drawing some conclusions after half the season is completed. Looking at some of the match reports, I think it is possible a girl played only 15 minutes because she is coming off an injury or maybe she has missed some recent practices, so the coach will give the player(s) that have been at every practice recently a reward of starting and/or playing the bulk of the minutes.

Unfortunately, for some of these clubs, I think it's just business as usual. The girls who barely saw the field last weekend are the ones that barely saw the field last year (on the teams where the coach remained the same, anyways). There were a couple of surprises, and I do think you are right that those could be due to injury.

 

[Lambchop]

Cool we agree on some things disagree on others. Mostly agree on focusing on your DD and on College opportunities rather than chasing the carrot of USSDA national team etc.

I would venture to say the vast majority of parents of girls playing DA are not chasing the "National team dream", but rather want to expose their daughter in the most positive atmosphere for college coaches to evaluate and to play in the most competitive environment available. Those who keep posting that the parents are buying into the National team dream , really don't know what they are talking about. Parents are not stupid, they know training four days a week will be challenging but will also improve play and fitness. The player who shoots 500 baskets a week will do better than a player shooting fifty baskets a week. The student who reads 500 pages a month will be a better reader than the student who reads 100 pages a month. So on and so on. Giving up high school soccer does give up a lot of glory and recognition and is a sacrifice in some ways particularly for a talented player and frankly a lot of parents want that for their child. Time will tell how all this plays out, but for each girl there is a path. Whatever their dream is let's all hope that they are able to achieve it without injury or too much adversity.

 

[watfly]

The DA is just another league for the most part. It is run by the same DOC's and coaches "that guard the hen house" now. I would think differently if US Soccer had more skin in the game but they have very little. If they were truly serious about it they would put there money where there mouth is and use some of its alleged $100 million surplus to defray the costs for participation. Its again the parents funding the system and the players making the sacrifices. It does consolidate some of the talent and makes it easier for USSF to identify players (which it apparently has a poor reputation of doing), but only marginally so than if the DA didn't exist.

Can someone point to the objective results of the boys DA over the last 10 years? The DA doesn't even identify any goals or objective measures for determining the success of the program. It identifies benefits but that's different than whether those benefits are creating any tangible results. Let's not kid ourselves, winning is a factor in the DA. Players on winning teams are going to get the benefit of the doubt over players on losing teams, its only human nature.

That having been said, we will probably choose to have my son play DA next year. Not because I have any illusion that it will provide any more benefit than a non-DA flight 1 team but because that is where the best players in the Club will be. If he chose not to and stayed with the Club he would be playing with kids that aren't at the same level he has been playing with for the past several years since the "top" 24 kids will be playing DA. DA is not much more than a marketing tool for the clubs that have it...mostly form over substance.

 

[espola]

The DA is just another league for the most part. It is run by the same DOC's and coaches "that guard the hen house" now. I would think differently if US Soccer had more skin in the game but they have very little. If they were truly serious about it they would put there money where there mouth is and use some of its alleged $100 million surplus to defray the costs for participation. Its again the parents funding the system and the players making the sacrifices. It does consolidate some of the talent and makes it easier for USSF to identify players (which it apparently has a poor reputation of doing), but only marginally so than if the DA didn't exist.

Can someone point to the objective results of the boys DA over the last 10 years? The DA doesn't even identify any goals or objective measures for determining the success of the program. It identifies benefits but that's different than whether those benefits are creating any tangible results. Let's not kid ourselves, winning is a factor in the DA. Players on winning teams are going to get the benefit of the doubt over players on losing teams, its only human nature.

That having been said, we will probably choose to have my son play DA next year. Not because I have any illusion that it will provide any more benefit than a non-DA flight 1 team but because that is where the best players in the Club will be. If he chose not to and stayed with the Club he would be playing with kids that aren't at the same level he has been playing with for the past several years since the "top" 24 kids will be playing DA. DA is not much more than a marketing tool for the clubs that have it...mostly form over substance.

The question on boys DA results came up in a discussion on BigSoccer realting to college players vs pros --
http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-e-nd-volution-of-college-soccer.2066265/page-2#post-35805211

 

[Lambchop]

Lambchop - what do you disagree with?

Some of your statement I agree with but there is more that I disagree with. I disagree with your assumption that the only girls who will understand and know the game of soccer will come from non ECNL DA clubs. You also state two of the clubs will finish mid pack, and you know this how. Please do tell. Also, you make it sound as if you have sat and watched every clubs DA practice, 4 times a week from the beginning, or have you walked by and seen some of the practice of some of the clubs. If you have seen them all, wow you must have a drone.