Ethics of Playing at Lower Flight Levels

[Emma]

Is there a consensus about a younger player ('06 and younger) who plays at the DA/pre-DA/ECNL level guesting in summer tournaments with a same-age team slotted in a Flight 2 tournament bracket? I don't see an issue with that player guesting on an older team, regardless of the playing tier, but my instinct is that playing at Flight 2 or below at the same age is not exactly fair. I do not want to find an issue where there really isn't one with younger players, and I believe many teams do this. Touches/time on the ball at this age is a good thing. Seems that people who do it think it is fine and the team that loses to a team with a "ringer" thinks it's cheating. Is this OK or unfair?

My child has been a guest player and has also lost playing time bc of a guest player. The kid(s) that guest were from a flight above. Some parents on the team were upset. I saw their viewpoint. I asked my child what my child's perspective was and it went along the lines of. "It was awesome to play with such great players. I had so much fun. I want to learn to play like that...what do I have to do?" My next question was...did any of the players from your team voice any thoughts? Yeah ..."they all liked it bc we won and we got a chance to play with and watch really good players." Would you guys want them to guest again? "YES!"
The only complaints were from the parents. The children observed and learned a lot from the higher flight player(s)...and enjoyed themselves. Total minutes lost from tournament play -80. Knowledge and inspiration gained from observing and playing with better players....a lot more than 80 minutes of play time against dominating teams. Why does it matter the reasons coach do what they do, it should only matter what the children get out of a particular situation. It's hard to assess why coaches do what they do but most of the time...it's for multiple reasons - the win for the coach, the win to build confidence for the kid, the inspiration for the children, to show parents on the sideline what it takes to go to the next flight, etc...

 

[Eagle33]

If they are newly formed why is the coach playing flight 2? It also seems like the coach is selecting the wrong tournaments as there are tournaments out there for lower level flight 3 teams....granted, in the final rounds they are usually placed against flight 2 teams that crush them, but that's par for the course (in the semi's of a tournament dear son's team got crushed 10-0 by a silver elite team just 2 weekends back....that's par for the course for most new teams and it's part of the learning experience).

The fact of the matter is tournaments, unless they are big and well established, struggling big time to get teams to attend. If 15 years ago tournament director would call you and tell you your team is too good or not good enough, now they are happy just to get teams in and get paid. At the younger ages, it's very difficult to place teams correctly since there are no scores kept in some leagues and teams don't get rated. Lopsided scores at the younger age groups is a norm.

 

[ToonArmy]

I've seen all of these things happen in one tournament involving my daughters team which is 05s and played up in an 04 bracket flight 2. They beat a team, I lost count, one of those games your goalie gets to play center forward and no one else gets to score. Why wasn't that other team in flight 3 it was an summer tournament meaning team was probably recently formed. Her team made it to the finals where they lost to a SCDSL Flight 1 team. Why wasn't this team in the top bracket of the tournament? Then during the medals ceremony the flight 1 teams coach handing out medals and doing player introductions introduced a handful of the girls that were helping them for the clubs ECNL team including the girl that scored all the goals. Good thing is our girls didn't really care much at least not as much as the parents did. And I did hear that this was typical of that coach.

 

[The Outlaw *BANNED*]

My child has been a guest player and has also lost playing time bc of a guest player. The kid(s) that guest were from a flight above. Some parents on the team were upset. I saw their viewpoint. I asked my child what my child's perspective was and it went along the lines of. "It was awesome to play with such great players. I had so much fun. I want to learn to play like that...what do I have to do?" My next question was...did any of the players from your team voice any thoughts? Yeah ..."they all liked it bc we won and we got a chance to play with and watch really good players." Would you guys want them to guest again? "YES!"
The only complaints were from the parents. The children observed and learned a lot from the higher flight player(s)...and enjoyed themselves. Total minutes lost from tournament play -80. Knowledge and inspiration gained from observing and playing with better players....a lot more than 80 minutes of play time against dominating teams. Why does it matter the reasons coach do what they do, it should only matter what the children get out of a particular situation. It's hard to assess why coaches do what they do but most of the time...it's for multiple reasons - the win for the coach, the win to build confidence for the kid, the inspiration for the children, to show parents on the sideline what it takes to go to the next flight, etc...

This worked for you because you won. Well, your "other" version won. Tournaments try to seed appropriately and spend a lot of time (hopefully) doing it. They try to bracket appropriately, unless they're hosting, and when a team brings 2-3 ringers it can really upset the apple cart. If your kid wants to watch better players, go watch them in their game. I have no respect for coaches that bring in ringers. Maybe I'm just wired that way... I have more admiration for Russell Westbrook and John Stockton, who got close but died trying, in their small markets, than Kevin Durant and Karl Malone who left to d**kride someone else's championship. My player would rather lose with her team than win with someone that didn't grind with them all year long.

 

[Emma]

This worked for you because you won. Well, your "other" version won. Tournaments try to seed appropriately and spend a lot of time (hopefully) doing it. They try to bracket appropriately, unless they're hosting, and when a team brings 2-3 ringers it can really upset the apple cart. If your kid wants to watch better players, go watch them in their game. I have no respect for coaches that bring in ringers. Maybe I'm just wired that way... I have more admiration for Russell Westbrook and John Stockton, who got close but died trying, in their small markets, than Kevin Durant and Karl Malone who left to d**kride someone else's championship. My player would rather lose with her team than win with someone that didn't grind with them all year long.

They didn't win by a lot. Tied and won by 1 or 2 goals at the max bc coach kept it competitive. The opposing teams lost or tied but they also gained the benefit of playing a more competitive team. Coaches that win 17-0 should be discussed in a different thread bc that's a whole different issue. A child, U-14 and under, does not have the same emotional connection or desire to learn from a game they are not participating in.

Another added benefit was the coach's ability to let players try different positions. Yes - this should be done at the youngers but we all know the pressures parents and clubs put on coaches to have winning teams.

We, as parents, should not worry or care about how things affect tournaments, clubs , games or leagues. What we should focus solely on at the U littles is whether something is helping our child develop.

Outlaw - we do have different viewpoints, I'd rather watch my child develop at the u littles then watch my child grind and win with the team at this young stage. My child wants to win but that's secondary to me at the u littles.

 

[futboldad1]

They didn't win by a lot. Tied and won by 1 or 2 goals at the max bc coach kept it competitive. The opposing teams lost or tied but they also gained the benefit of playing a more competitive team. Coaches that win 17-0 should be discussed in a different thread bc that's a whole different issue. A child, U-14 and under, does not have the same emotional connection or desire to learn from a game they are not participating in.

Another added benefit was the coach's ability to let players try different positions. Yes - this should be done at the youngers but we all know the pressures parents and clubs put on coaches to have winning teams.

We, as parents, should not worry or care about how things affect tournaments, clubs , games or leagues. What we should focus solely on at the U littles is whether something is helping our child develop.

Outlaw - we do have different viewpoints, I'd rather watch my child develop at the u littles then watch my child grind and win with the team at this young stage. My child wants to win but that's secondary to me at the u littles.

Sportsmanship is not just the score.* My DDs played for the top teams at SD Surf and we'd routinely win friendlies by double figures and the game was played the right way. They've also guested for teams that won by large margins and it was ugly and direct and the last time they guested with them. I'm not judging a coach by how much they win by (or lose by, which could also be a discussion) but how they, their sideline and their team act.

*Caveat - if you're playing out of choice in flight 2 or 3 and winning 20-zero then I take back my points above.

 

[watfly]

Seems like a lot of over analysis on this topic. It's your kid, if they have a good experience guesting, good for them.

The naysayers are just worried about how this type of situation may impact (or previously impacted) their kid.

 

[Grace T.]

Yeah ..."they all liked it bc we won and we got a chance to play with and watch really good players." Would you guys want them to guest again? "YES!"
The only complaints were from the parents. The children observed and learned a lot from the higher flight player(s)...and enjoyed themselves. .

Children like sugar too, but our job as parents is to know better. Of course kids like to win. If soccer is all about fun (as some argue) well then that's great. But soccer being zero sum game meant someone else had to lose and pay that price.

At ULittles in particular, though, kids don't learn by observation. What they learn by watching top flight players their age, they could learn by watching Premier League or MLS (it will do them as much good). Kids at that age, studies have shown, learn primarily by doing-- repetition on one end, and trial and error on another, depending what part of the brain is being developed. That's why sitting down Littles and having them watch their own videos to analyze mistakes doesn't do a whole lot of good either (their brains haven't developed to operate that way yet). So to the extent the ringers are costing the players play time, that is something which they aren't getting a benefit from (yet the parents are paying for) beyond inspiration. They'd have more of a benefit is the top flight players came down and practiced with them (one v ones, passing, shooting against their keeper) than if the top flight players played in a tournament with them. So the "it develops the other players" argument doesn't carry a lot of water: if that were true we really cared about that, we'd force the top flight players in the club to periodically practice with the lower flight players to develop them.

As for questioning the coaches, their interests are different than ours as parents. The coach is judged by his wins and losses and ultimately by the tournaments won and the promotion to higher flights. The coach also wants to avoid panic situations by losing too much. But the coach's interests are not aligned with the child's and that's a problem, which means it falls to the parent to look out for the child.

I personally think the guest thing has gotten too out of control. We don't allow players to guest from higher age groups, we shouldn't allow it from higher flights...I get one of the problems is tournaments have become too spread out and common but there's were the soccer orgs need to get involved and prohibit bracketing teams for officially sanctioned tournaments more than 1 flight above or below. Otherwise, why have the brackets at all....given their distortive effect on development you may as well just get rid of them.

 

[The Outlaw *BANNED*]

They didn't win by a lot. Tied and won by 1 or 2 goals at the max bc coach kept it competitive. The opposing teams lost or tied but they also gained the benefit of playing a more competitive team. Coaches that win 17-0 should be discussed in a different thread bc that's a whole different issue. A child, U-14 and under, does not have the same emotional connection or desire to learn from a game they are not participating in.

Another added benefit was the coach's ability to let players try different positions. Yes - this should be done at the youngers but we all know the pressures parents and clubs put on coaches to have winning teams.

We, as parents, should not worry or care about how things affect tournaments, clubs , games or leagues. What we should focus solely on at the U littles is whether something is helping our child develop.

Outlaw - we do have different viewpoints, I'd rather watch my child develop at the u littles then watch my child grind and win with the team at this young stage. My child wants to win but that's secondary to me at the u littles.

No, we both want to see development... but we're not there for us... we're there for the kids, and the kids want to win. The kids know other teams and their players unless it's Surf or some other, national venue. If you bring in a ringer, it's because you're afraid to compete with the team you have. I have no respect for that. You aren't "developing"... you're taking playing and developing time away from the kids you have 100% of the time. And for the record, I remember very few parents driving home and saying, "that was a real development opportunity" after a tourney. 06 isn't Ulittles anymore... they're 13.

 

[Emma]

Watfly - I agree with you. From our experience, it was good for my child to play with better players. Others may have experienced things differently. I was putting my experience out there for the OP.

futboldad1- I agree with you...not every double digit win indicates a shady coach. At 17-0 though...the game management didn't happen much. Switch players around at 6-0, 8-0 take a player out and put goalie in field, 10-0 another player out so your players can have more players go after them when they have the ball, at 12-0 make it a tactical practice. Sometimes things get out of hand quickly and there's really nothing anyone can do about it.

Grace - that's a little extreme with the sugar comparison, don't ya think? My child actually enjoyed the experience and I actually listened to my child instead of telling my child that it was a terrible experience for x, y, and z reasons. Children learn from observation first, then they get better through repetition. Isn't that why you take your son to private lessons, to ensure he observes and learns the right way to play first, and then practice repeatedly to improve? Observations, like parental or pier cussing, leads to child cussing. They perfect their cussing through repetition and cuss at the appropriate times when they become adults...like at youth soccer games Our culture is not a big viewer of soccer - so the children don't learn as much from viewing games. Besides - peer pressure and influence is very high for ulittles. Not every goal a coach has is misaligned with a child's development - some will align and some will not.

Outlaw - We just see it differently. 06 is still ulittle to me. In fact...I'll push it to 05s. If we're talking about gymnastics, it's definitely close to their prime. We're discussing soccer here, development should still be the focus at U15. Most players don't hit their prime until their twenties...what's the rush? When we take the drive home with our child, we ask our child - did you have fun and did you learn anything...Our child's response weighs heavily how we view the situation bc it is the child's learning experience and not ours. If my child told me it was a great fun learning and inspirational experience...why would I care about the Coach's choice to compete or not ....why would I feel the need to "disrespect" a coach for bringing that experience into my child's life? For my child, the experience of playing with better players was worth the trade off of less playing time. Teammates felt this way too...parents were pissed. What the coach did inspired the desire to be better in the players ... and that wasn't established through playing time for my child. It was definitely a great trade off for my child.

 

[Grace T.]

Isn't that why you take your son to private lessons, to ensure he observes and learns the right way to play first, and then practice repeatedly to improve?

Don't really want to get into an argument with you so I'll just say agree to disagree. Different people get different things and have different objectives in soccer. Different people have different perspectives on ethics.

But I'll disagree in one respect: goalkeeper coaches (at least the ones that know what they are doing) don't really instruct goalkeepers by observation and showing them how to do it right. Partially it's that most are too old to do it. I'd pay real money to see Jeff Tackett execute a series of high dives. But they also know that's not a very good way for the kids to learn...they instruct them by having them execute and correct them by leading questions to help them figure out what they did wrong (the kids know they did something wrong because with goalkeepers it's easy...it went into the goal)

There's some exceptions. For real beginners that have no idea how to dive, you might show them one or two. Or if you are emphasizing hand placement or a correction, you might at a real slow speed show where you want the arm. But they never instruct the assistant to ping them (or an older goalkeeper) and just have the younger ones watch and learn.

 

[coachrefparent]

As others have noted, if your team is getting shellacked 14-1 in a friendly, they should be playing at a level that they can be competitive. Such a team should not have a high level DA/ECNL player on it for any reason. It doesn't help anyone on the team, but you can rationalize it to your heart's delight.

These little kids don't know any better, but once they are teens they would never play down so much lower, no matter the reason given them.