Stop the "Guesting down" nonsense

Riggins

Riggins

BRONZE
I am so tired of showing up to games that you know should be competitive based on the rankings and results only to find the other team is borrowing players from one, two, or even FOUR divisions higher. That is not fair to either team!

My kid is in Europa F1 but ends up playing teams that are pulling guests from Discovery. That is a pretty huge leap. Back when he was F3 we would get guests from F1. Yeah, it helped the team win and you could say it "inspired" them, but it seriously isn't fair for the opponent and our team would mostly just defer to the "good players".

I'd love to see a policy where guests have to come from the same or lower flight. This means these kids are given a chance to try the next level, be challenged, but also the receiving team is given a sub so not short sided. Only if the club has no other even or lower flight team can you pull a guest from one level above. Otherwise, sorry, play without a sub or short handed.

It's only fair.
 
Frank said:
When did fair ever get involved at SCDSL. They have the league exactly the way the DOC's from those major clubs want it. That's one of the reasons why they left CSL was to have their own rules.
Click to expand...

At least CSL is considered enough to have a no play down rule. Same level or below if you're guesting.

SCDSL and Cal South should do them same, that ST/NT cup nonsense where teams can play down on appeal is just a recipe for those that seek to game the system.
 
Frank said:
When did fair ever get involved at SCDSL. They have the league exactly the way the DOC's from those major clubs want it. That's one of the reasons why they left CSL was to have their own rules.
Click to expand...

It isn't just SCDSL. Guesting down is a problem all over.

I no longer allow my daughter to guest down. It steals a game from the kids on the lower team.
Not just minutes, but touches. Lower team players touch the ball a lot less when upper team players are guesting.
 
I just saw it last week where a top 09 team used a guest from a flight 1 08 team. The gal wasn't even from the same club. Same 'family' of clubs but not the same club. I suppose I can see if you needed an extra player, but they already had 3 subs of their own.
I also remember last season seeing a flight 2 06 team use some of their clubs ECNL gals during the playoffs. Their bench was stocked with subs. I think these are both examples of telling the rest of your team that they're not good enough and winning is your top priority.
 
dad4 said:
It isn't just SCDSL. Guesting down is a problem all over.

I no longer allow my daughter to guest down. It steals a game from the kids on the lower team.
Not just minutes, but touches. Lower team players touch the ball a lot less when upper team players are guesting.
Click to expand...

Even if their team has the ball more than they would have without the guest?
 
Don't agree. What if you have a player coming back from injury or suffering a loss of confidence. They should just "gut it out" on their higher level team or do you send them down for a bit to recover and get their mojo back? There is a valid purpose for guesting down but it seems it is not being used as intended. This is how it works in pro sports for "conditioning assignments" don't see why it can't be used here just needs to be limited.
 
espola said:
Even if their team has the ball more than they would have without the guest?
Click to expand...

Yes.

my kid is a 2010- 7v7. It is easy for one or two players to take over a game. The lower skill kids on both teams never touch the ball.

Even at higher levels, I wouldn't do it except to help correct a complete mismatch.
 
soccerchaffeur said:
I just saw it last week where a top 09 team used a guest from a flight 1 08 team. The gal wasn't even from the same club. Same 'family' of clubs but not the same club. I suppose I can see if you needed an extra player, but they already had 3 subs of their own.
I also remember last season seeing a flight 2 06 team use some of their clubs ECNL gals during the playoffs. Their bench was stocked with subs. I think these are both examples of telling the rest of your team that they're not good enough and winning is your top priority.
Click to expand...

This comes from clubs that have a "Club First" mentality. And they think that winning helps with recruiting. The 2006 girls on that flight 2 team who aren't very strong will probably be leaving next year anyway. So the club wants to win so they can find players that want to replace them by joining a "winning" team. And join a club that tells parents "your kid will have the chance to move up to our ECNL team", only to learn that the ECNL team is focused on gathering players from other ECNL or DA teams and it would take a cold day in hell before a current F2 player would even get a sniff at the crown jewel of the club.

Find a club and a coach that has a "player first, team 2nd, club third" mentality. Good luck. Not many out there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SCS
I can see the need to play down if you are coming back from injury, and that probably is a valid case in the older age groups. But, in the youngers it makes no sense. The gap in skill between divisions is often monstrous. A top F2 team maybe not even be close to competitive with many of the existing F1 teams. But yes, when you are of HS age that might be a valid reason. Let them play down one division -- with a doctors note.
 
tjinaz said:
Don't agree. What if you have a player coming back from injury or suffering a loss of confidence. They should just "gut it out" on their higher level team or do you send them down for a bit to recover and get their mojo back? There is a valid purpose for guesting down but it seems it is not being used as intended. This is how it works in pro sports for "conditioning assignments" don't see why it can't be used here just needs to be limited.
Click to expand...

That never happens. 99.99% of all guesting down (and guesting in general) is to help the team win, period. Even when a team needs guests because they have injuries and have no subs, it’s always the best players available who get that first call/opportunity to guest.
 
We lost to a team in the finals of a tournament with at least 3 guest players from a higher level team. Didn't care that we lost. Glad the kids all came out to play and they learned a lot from the higher level kids. If a coach is doing this at every tournament and every league game, I would worry about playing time but if it's only a few games, it's not a bad thing if you're not concerned about wins and losses.
 
In the older divisions wins and loses are a bit more important. Since SCDSL got rid of the "Showcase weekend" we now only get the extra two games if you place in the top two of your division. So, even though the game shouldn't be all about winning, your team literally is getting less games and therefore less for the money if you aren't one of the top two.
 
Riggins said:
I am so tired of showing up to games that you know should be competitive based on the rankings and results only to find the other team is borrowing players from one, two, or even FOUR divisions higher. That is not fair to either team!

My kid is in Europa F1 but ends up playing teams that are pulling guests from Discovery. That is a pretty huge leap. Back when he was F3 we would get guests from F1. Yeah, it helped the team win and you could say it "inspired" them, but it seriously isn't fair for the opponent and our team would mostly just defer to the "good players".

I'd love to see a policy where guests have to come from the same or lower flight. This means these kids are given a chance to try the next level, be challenged, but also the receiving team is given a sub so not short sided. Only if the club has no other even or lower flight team can you pull a guest from one level above. Otherwise, sorry, play without a sub or short handed.

It's only fair.
Click to expand...
timbuck said:
This comes from clubs that have a "Club First" mentality. And they think that winning helps with recruiting. The 2006 girls on that flight 2 team who aren't very strong will probably be leaving next year anyway. So the club wants to win so they can find players that want to replace them by joining a "winning" team. And join a club that tells parents "your kid will have the chance to move up to our ECNL team", only to learn that the ECNL team is focused on gathering players from other ECNL or DA teams and it would take a cold day in hell before a current F2 player would even get a sniff at the crown jewel of the club.

Find a club and a coach that has a "player first, team 2nd, club third" mentality. Good luck. Not many out there.
Click to expand...

Valid points across the board. Some clubs/coaches also guest their top F1 age group player(s) in league play on their F2 and F3 teams too, regardless of amount of subs. Therefore, taking the development away from F2 and F3 kids. Win at all costs attitude across all flights, and to satisfy parents of the top kids.

Unfortunately that's the way it is. Hoping that can change one day.
 
my daughter did this for a couple tournaments on the theory that the team had a shallow bench and needed the help. the 2nd time, we get there and they had 14 players for a 9 v 9. needless to say i felt bad for those other girls who practiced hard and their parents who paid to get them game time experience. left a real bad taste in my mouth.
 
Last edited:
Why not just scrap all guest player options? Form a team at the start of the season; if you don't have enough players, don't form the team. If you get injuries, while I appreciate that is a difficult situation, use it as a way to help the players and team grow. Last season our B03 team played many games (including State Cup semi-final and final) with 10 players due to an outrageous injury list. They definitely came out of it a much closer-knit group (which is generally what happens when people go through hardship together).

I remember playing for the same club for years as a kid and we never borrowed anyone because we couldn't. If you didn't have enough players, tough shit. You played with what you had and worked harder to make up for it.

This is yet another contributing factor to why so many kids are not developing the resilience and toughness they need to prepare for life as adults. We 'fix' way too much shit for them.
 
Riggins said:
I am so tired of showing up to games that you know should be competitive based on the rankings and results only to find the other team is borrowing players from one, two, or even FOUR divisions higher. That is not fair to either team!

My kid is in Europa F1 but ends up playing teams that are pulling guests from Discovery. That is a pretty huge leap. Back when he was F3 we would get guests from F1. Yeah, it helped the team win and you could say it "inspired" them, but it seriously isn't fair for the opponent and our team would mostly just defer to the "good players".

I'd love to see a policy where guests have to come from the same or lower flight. This means these kids are given a chance to try the next level, be challenged, but also the receiving team is given a sub so not short sided. Only if the club has no other even or lower flight team can you pull a guest from one level above. Otherwise, sorry, play without a sub or short handed.

It's only fair.
Click to expand...

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure in CSL when teams club pass players those players can only play up. Players who play at a higher level cannot be club passed to a lower level.
 
Mom Taxi said:
Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure in CSL when teams club pass players those players can only play up. Players who play at a higher level cannot be club passed to a lower level.
Click to expand...
that is correct but there is an easy way around it (that is used frequently). Roster your higher level players to the lower level team official roster; then they can play up every week for the higher level team and on occasion when the lower level team need or want them, they are effectively not playing 'down'.

Often a workaround for most rules. Solution? Remove the guest player option. Either you're on the official roster or you're not. This can be fixed for the duration of fall league season.
 
timbuck said:
This comes from clubs that have a "Club First" mentality. And they think that winning helps with recruiting. The 2006 girls on that flight 2 team who aren't very strong will probably be leaving next year anyway. So the club wants to win so they can find players that want to replace them by joining a "winning" team. And join a club that tells parents "your kid will have the chance to move up to our ECNL team", only to learn that the ECNL team is focused on gathering players from other ECNL or DA teams and it would take a cold day in hell before a current F2 player would even get a sniff at the crown jewel of the club.

Find a club and a coach that has a "player first, team 2nd, club third" mentality. Good luck. Not many out there.
Click to expand...

"Club first" is so European.

How are those multiple smaller countries doing on the world soccer stage?
 
We guest all the time. With our own club for league play we guested up to 01 premier (CSL) last year and this year(she is an 05 player), her current club is gold. We also guest two games for our own age with a silver team for a friendly tourney during the summer. We have also guest played with two other clubs in tourneys, same age, same level. My daughter is a goal keeper, and it seems teams can't find enough goal keepers, so we guest to get her more experience and to help others out. For league it should always be that you can only play up, either by age, or level. This should apply to State Cup as well. Others are correct in that you can not play at a lower level in CSL, only up, and only player that can play twice in the same day is a keeper. I'd venture to say that all other Tourneys would be mostly fair game.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top