Possession

Any other parents notice that Refs seem to have a really hard time understanding the LOTG around possession?

I have seen too many incidents where the GK (mine as well as others) have, from my understanding of the LOTG, possession, yet attackers are given the latitude to either kick, run into, jump into, and other forms of illegal contact.

This season alone we saw 2 GK's injured (1 concussion and 1 broken arm). Why is this so hard to control and why are ref's not erring on the side of protecting an exposed keeper vs. allowing a free for all?
 
Yes, I have seen it and I don't think the refs are doing enough to keep players safe (especially keepers). Physical play is one thing; allowing play to get out of hand and have the kids take matters into their own hands is another.
 
Any other parents notice that Refs seem to have a really hard time understanding the LOTG around possession?

I have seen too many incidents where the GK (mine as well as others) have, from my understanding of the LOTG, possession, yet attackers are given the latitude to either kick, run into, jump into, and other forms of illegal contact.

This season alone we saw 2 GK's injured (1 concussion and 1 broken arm). Why is this so hard to control and why are ref's not erring on the side of protecting an exposed keeper vs. allowing a free for all?
Good post. Agreed 100%.

I've seen this called both ways very inconsistently by youth referees in my DD's games ever since U11. Recently we had two separate incidents called/not called by different refs where on one play the attacking player kicked the ball out of my kids' hands while she was on the ground, running over her in the process and resulting in a goal. Luckily, my player wasn't hurt, but talk about dangerous! The attacking player got all ball, but my keeper had the ball in her hands. I was pissed that the ref didn't protect my player. The goal was bad enough, but seriously, kicking at a ball in someone's hands while they are stretched out on the ground? That's the definition of reckless/unsafe play. Another play, my kid goes up in the air for a great cross into the box, gets her hands on it only to be plowed into by the attacking player. It was bang-bang, and my DD didn't "possess" the ball (by NFL rules, anyway, LOL) but she had both hands on the ball in the air when she got hit in the ribs and flattened, and the ball bounced away. The ref called the foul and yellow carded the attacking player for reckless play. The opposing coach went nuts, yelling that it was a "50/50" ball.

I don't know the LOTG well, but my understanding is that when a keeper is going for a ball, they are exposed and given greater consideration for safety in the first place even if they don't have "possession," but when they have their hands on a ball, attacking players can't touch them. Is that correct?
 
At different levels things get called differently or at least they should. The problem with referee education is that most of the training they have is based on videos of MLS games and above, and very little youth games. Some understand this but many new referees don't. There is definitely not enough emphasis being made to protect goalkeepers.
 
Any other parents notice that Refs seem to have a really hard time understanding the LOTG around possession?

I have seen too many incidents where the GK (mine as well as others) have, from my understanding of the LOTG, possession, yet attackers are given the latitude to either kick, run into, jump into, and other forms of illegal contact.

This season alone we saw 2 GK's injured (1 concussion and 1 broken arm). Why is this so hard to control and why are ref's not erring on the side of protecting an exposed keeper vs. allowing a free for all?

I sort of agree with you. I have recently seen a few of my fellow refs let dangerous play against a keeper go. All of them have been with the keeper on the ground and (in possession) at least one hand holding the ball in place on the ground or with both hands, and the attacker comes in and kicks it out of their hand(s) and a couple times kicking the hands. With, no call or card. In the instances where I was an AR, I talked to the center and other AR at halftime or after the game about keeper possession and the dangers of a player kicking the ball out of the keepers hands. I (AR) had a game recently where the keeper had just punted and the opponent came through and ran through the keepers kicking leg while it was still up and spun and knocked the keeper down. Both of us AR's flagged the foul. The CR came to me to ask what I saw and told me he saw it but since the ball was gone it was not a foul. I straightened him out and he awarded the foul and a Yellow card (I would have given a Red card). We also had a talk at halftime.

Now, lets look at keeper possession and some of the difficulties that confront referees. We can all agree that if an attacker steamrolls a keeper that it is a foul and a card. That is an easy call. The more difficult calls are the ones where the attacker just bumps the keeper. As a referee I have to ask myself a few questions extremely quickly: was it a foul, did the keeper go down and are they injured, how hard was the bump, was the keeper really effected, does the keepers team lose an advantage if I call a foul and take the ball out of the keepers hands, has this happened before, how has the attacker been playing (physical or clean), was the bump hard enough to need a card, what is the score, what is the game time, if I don't call it will the players take matters into their own hands. All of these go into my decision to call a foul and take the ball out of the keepers hands, slow the game down and allow the other team to setup. If I do not call a foul, I will always have a word with the player doing the bumping and keep an eye on the keeper to make sure the keeper does not try to retaliate. I am really quick with the whistle if the keeper is on the ground and an opponent is kicking or going to try to kick the ball out of the keepers hands.

The other thing to consider is fouls by the keeper. During the past year I gave 3 keepers Yellow cards and 2 Red cards for the way they used their elbows and knees. The two red cards were for serious foul play by using their elbow or knee in a way that endangered the safety of the opponent. In one Red card the G16 keeper made a running save and while running by an opponent extended her elbow making contact with the opponents jaw, easy Red card. The other Red card involved 17 year old boys and a keepers knee and the groin. High ball into the penalty area, keeper and opponent go up for the ball, and the keeper brings his knee up into the opponents groin. Easy Red card from my angle, but the coach and keepers teammates did not agree even with the opponent on the ground in pain and tears holding his groin. I know a lot of people will argue that a keeper has to bring their knee up to protect themselves. They can bring the knee up but cannot do it in a way that will endanger the opponent. The knee is hard and can cause as much damage to an opponent as an elbow. The LOTG do not give the keeper any special considerations except that they are allowed to play the ball with their hands within the Penalty Area.
 
I sort of agree with you. I have recently seen a few of my fellow refs let dangerous play against a keeper go. All of them have been with the keeper on the ground and (in possession) at least one hand holding the ball in place on the ground or with both hands, and the attacker comes in and kicks it out of their hand(s) and a couple times kicking the hands. With, no call or card. In the instances where I was an AR, I talked to the center and other AR at halftime or after the game about keeper possession and the dangers of a player kicking the ball out of the keepers hands. I (AR) had a game recently where the keeper had just punted and the opponent came through and ran through the keepers kicking leg while it was still up and spun and knocked the keeper down. Both of us AR's flagged the foul. The CR came to me to ask what I saw and told me he saw it but since the ball was gone it was not a foul. I straightened him out and he awarded the foul and a Yellow card (I would have given a Red card). We also had a talk at halftime.

Now, lets look at keeper possession and some of the difficulties that confront referees. We can all agree that if an attacker steamrolls a keeper that it is a foul and a card. That is an easy call. The more difficult calls are the ones where the attacker just bumps the keeper. As a referee I have to ask myself a few questions extremely quickly: was it a foul, did the keeper go down and are they injured, how hard was the bump, was the keeper really effected, does the keepers team lose an advantage if I call a foul and take the ball out of the keepers hands, has this happened before, how has the attacker been playing (physical or clean), was the bump hard enough to need a card, what is the score, what is the game time, if I don't call it will the players take matters into their own hands. All of these go into my decision to call a foul and take the ball out of the keepers hands, slow the game down and allow the other team to setup. If I do not call a foul, I will always have a word with the player doing the bumping and keep an eye on the keeper to make sure the keeper does not try to retaliate. I am really quick with the whistle if the keeper is on the ground and an opponent is kicking or going to try to kick the ball out of the keepers hands.

The other thing to consider is fouls by the keeper. During the past year I gave 3 keepers Yellow cards and 2 Red cards for the way they used their elbows and knees. The two red cards were for serious foul play by using their elbow or knee in a way that endangered the safety of the opponent. In one Red card the G16 keeper made a running save and while running by an opponent extended her elbow making contact with the opponents jaw, easy Red card. The other Red card involved 17 year old boys and a keepers knee and the groin. High ball into the penalty area, keeper and opponent go up for the ball, and the keeper brings his knee up into the opponents groin. Easy Red card from my angle, but the coach and keepers teammates did not agree even with the opponent on the ground in pain and tears holding his groin. I know a lot of people will argue that a keeper has to bring their knee up to protect themselves. They can bring the knee up but cannot do it in a way that will endanger the opponent. The knee is hard and can cause as much damage to an opponent as an elbow. The LOTG do not give the keeper any special considerations except that they are allowed to play the ball with their hands within the Penalty Area.

thank you for replying Surf! I have always understood possession not being defined by "how much" hand but rather, even if I were to have one finger on the ball (think a place kicker in football) that the GK is in possession...not that I would ever advise that of course.

We had a game two weeks ago where my daughter had the ball scooped and the player kicked her...we got the foul but no card...not 5 min later she came out caught a ball and got run into by the same girl...again a foul, no card. Finally in the second half, my daughter picks up a through ball, a different girl runs into my daughter who was still arms up in the full scoop...the attacker goes down flat and the ref tells my daughter to "calm down" :)

I do teach my daughter to protect herself first but I really feel that refs need to keep kids from cheap shots on the GK. When no card is ever issued it is almost win-win for the attacker in that either defense gets a free kick or the balls gets jarred loose and a goal.
 
As a referee I have to ask myself a few questions extremely quickly: was it a foul, did the keeper go down and are they injured, how hard was the bump, was the keeper really effected, does the keepers team lose an advantage if I call a foul and take the ball out of the keepers hands, has this happened before, how has the attacker been playing (physical or clean), was the bump hard enough to need a card, what is the score, what is the game time, if I don't call it will the players take matters into their own hands. All of these go into my decision to call a foul and take the ball out of the keepers hands, slow the game down and allow the other team to setup. If I do not call a foul, I will always have a word with the player doing the bumping and keep an eye on the keeper to make sure the keeper does not try to retaliate. I am really quick with the whistle if the keeper is on the ground and an opponent is kicking or going to try to kick the ball out of the keepers hands.
I'd be glad to have you be our CR anytime. I don't envy you. That's a lot to keep track of. And I totally get that bang-bang plays where both players have a right to the ball are going to be tough judgments.
The other thing to consider is fouls by the keeper.
My keeper got one of those calls on her where she went in the air for the ball, the forward going up for the header, and they both arrived simultaneously colliding before the ball reached them, so neither one got a piece of the ball. Except my DD caught the forward in the neck with her arm inadvertently as she went up for the catch, forward goes down in pain. Ref awarded PK for a foul in the box, but no card. Our team parents were mad about the foul, but I thought it was legit, maybe 50-50 call vs no-call. The other team was pissed that no card was given, they wanted a red. Given the circumstances I thought the foul and PK were probably the right move. Sounds like you would have given a card? Yea or Nay?
 
I sort of agree with you. I have recently seen a few of my fellow refs let dangerous play against a keeper go. All of them have been with the keeper on the ground and (in possession) at least one hand holding the ball in place on the ground or with both hands, and the attacker comes in and kicks it out of their hand(s) and a couple times kicking the hands. With, no call or card. In the instances where I was an AR, I talked to the center and other AR at halftime or after the game about keeper possession and the dangers of a player kicking the ball out of the keepers hands. I (AR) had a game recently where the keeper had just punted and the opponent came through and ran through the keepers kicking leg while it was still up and spun and knocked the keeper down. Both of us AR's flagged the foul. The CR came to me to ask what I saw and told me he saw it but since the ball was gone it was not a foul. I straightened him out and he awarded the foul and a Yellow card (I would have given a Red card). We also had a talk at halftime.

.

To clarify, so the ball does the ball not have to be in BOTH hands of the keeper to prevent an attacker kicking it? One will suffice?
 
I'd be glad to have you be our CR anytime. I don't envy you. That's a lot to keep track of. And I totally get that bang-bang plays where both players have a right to the ball are going to be tough judgments.

My keeper got one of those calls on her where she went in the air for the ball, the forward going up for the header, and they both arrived simultaneously colliding before the ball reached them, so neither one got a piece of the ball. Except my DD caught the forward in the neck with her arm inadvertently as she went up for the catch, forward goes down in pain. Ref awarded PK for a foul in the box, but no card. Our team parents were mad about the foul, but I thought it was legit, maybe 50-50 call vs no-call. The other team was pissed that no card was given, they wanted a red. Given the circumstances I thought the foul and PK were probably the right move. Sounds like you would have given a card? Yea or Nay?

Sounds like a careless foul so no card. Besides the team got a PK and good chance to score a goal. I like to think players learn from their mistakes and a mistake that ends in a PK is a good lesson. Those can be tough calls because sometimes the keeper goes almost straight up and the opponent goes in on an angle and hits the keepers arm/elbow. Everyone wants a foul, but it is actually the opponents fault for impacting the keepers arm. Those are times when you hope the ref is close and has a good angle.
 
To clarify, so the ball does the ball not have to be in BOTH hands of the keeper to prevent an attacker kicking it? One will suffice?
To clarify, so the ball does the ball not have to be in BOTH hands of the keeper to prevent an attacker kicking it? One will suffice?

My understanding is that for example on the ground if I have one hand on the ball holding it to the ground that is considered possession...does not require two hands...that being said, think we'll let Surfref confirm that one :)
 
To clarify, so the ball does the ball not have to be in BOTH hands of the keeper to prevent an attacker kicking it? One will suffice?

Fingers will suffice. I have seen keepers stop the ball from going in the goal with just one finger. If the keeper has the ball stopped/trapped with one hand (one finger counts as a hand) against the ground that counts as possession. If an attacker comes along and kicks the ball out without touching the keepers hand, then it is Dangerous Play and an Indirect Free Kick. If they kick the keepers hand then you have a kicking foul and possible misconduct (Yellow or Red card).

I disallowed a goal during National Cup because the keeper had made a save and had a couple fingers on top of the ball trapping it against the ground when an attacker came along and kicked it into the goal also just nicking the keepers hand. No winning goal, kicking foul, and Yellow card. The attacker's coach (I thought his head was going to explode) was yelling at me that the keeper did not have two hands on the ball, I just ignored him and got play started.
 
Part of the problem is the youngers are playing without cards. If it's a foul on the keeper, the consequences aren't likely to be severe (a direct kick from back there is nothing). So the coaches don't say anything and bad habits are formed. My son got nailed in the stomach from a striker going to the ball he had stopped on the ground...striker intentionally was trying to play the ball despite the keeper having it. Ref had allowed the game to get away from him by not calling several violent fouls before. Kid's instincts are naturally to win....to score particularly when they are that close. What really got me is neither the coach or ref said anything to the kid. :mad:
 
Part of the problem is the youngers are playing without cards. If it's a foul on the keeper, the consequences aren't likely to be severe (a direct kick from back there is nothing). So the coaches don't say anything and bad habits are formed. My son got nailed in the stomach from a striker going to the ball he had stopped on the ground...striker intentionally was trying to play the ball despite the keeper having it. Ref had allowed the game to get away from him by not calling several violent fouls before. Kid's instincts are naturally to win....to score particularly when they are that close. What really got me is neither the coach or ref said anything to the kid. :mad:
Assuming what you say is true, "Ref had allowed the game to get away from him by not calling several violent fouls before" the rest is irrelevant.
 
This is from 2005... https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/03/17/12/02/playing-the-ball-in-the-goalkeepers-possession

""In the possession of the goalkeeper" is defined as the goalkeeper having the ball trapped between one hand and a surface (which may include the other hand, the ground, a goalpost, or the keeper's own body). International Board Decision Two of Law 12 emphasizes that the hand includes any part of the hand or arm. However, as stated in the Advice to Referees on the Laws of the Game (Advice 12.16 and 12.17), the goalkeeper is also considered to be in possession of the ball while bouncing it on the ground or while throwing it into the air. Possession is given up if, while throwing the ball into the air, it is allowed to strike the ground."

"Once the goalkeeper has gained possession (also known as "control") of the ball, an opponent may not interfere with or block the goalkeeper's distribution of the ball. For example, players have a right to maintain a position achieved during the normal course of play, but they may not try to block the goalkeeper's movement while he or she is holding the ball and trying to distribute it. Nor may opposing players do anything to hinder, interfere with, or block a goalkeeper who is throwing or punting the ball back into play. The goalkeeper has already gained possession and is granted up to six seconds to release the ball back into play by other players. A goalkeeper in the act of distributing the ball may not be challenged under these circumstances. (This includes trying to head a ball out of the goalkeeper's open hand or playing a ball being bounced or tossed into the air by the goalkeeper.) An opponent does not violate the Law, however, if that player takes advantage of a ball clearly released by the goalkeeper directly to him or her, in his or her direction, or deflecting off him or her nonviolently."
 
Fingers will suffice. I have seen keepers stop the ball from going in the goal with just one finger. If the keeper has the ball stopped/trapped with one hand (one finger counts as a hand) against the ground that counts as possession. If an attacker comes along and kicks the ball out without touching the keepers hand, then it is Dangerous Play and an Indirect Free Kick. If they kick the keepers hand then you have a kicking foul and possible misconduct (Yellow or Red card).

I disallowed a goal during National Cup because the keeper had made a save and had a couple fingers on top of the ball trapping it against the ground when an attacker came along and kicked it into the goal also just nicking the keepers hand. No winning goal, kicking foul, and Yellow card. The attacker's coach (I thought his head was going to explode) was yelling at me that the keeper did not have two hands on the ball, I just ignored him and got play started.

What's the call in this situation? Keeper is laid out on top of the ball with the ball trapped between his lower thighs and the ground. Attacker toe pokes the ball out from under the keeper and scores. No hand involved so keeper technically doesn't have "control", is it a dangerous play even if contact is not made with the keeper?
 
3 Situations I've seen this year:

1. Girls 2007 - Keeper makes a save. Walks out to the 18 to punt it. Player (my daughter- oops) - tries to block the punt. Whistle and yellow card. No argument from her coach. No argument from me. She's been watching too much football.

2. Girls 2004 - Ball played into the box on the right side. Attacker and keeper scramble for the ball - 50/50. Keeper ignores the ball and cleans out the attacker. No whistle. Ball goes out for a goal kick. I (the coach) argue with the referee that if the girl was not wearing gloves or a neon jersey, then he absolutely calls a foul there. He says "I'm not giving a PK for that" - which to me means that he acknowledges there was a foul, but not one that warranted a good chance at converting a goal. I argue that regardless of where the foul occurs, a foul is a foul.

3. Girls 2004. My keeper goes up to make a save. Has the ball firmly in her hands over her head. Attacker plows into her. Knocks the ball loose and into the goal. Keeper is flat on her back and in tears. Referee says "goal". AR waves referee over to discuss the hit. Referee says "goal". Keeper is still flat on her back and referee never checked to see if she is ok. Opposing coach can't believe he allowed the goal. Game gets completely out of hand for the remaining 30 minutes and referee calls very few fouls. Including an incredibly dangerous hit from my defender into their center midfielder. Ball is up on the air. Their player is ready to chest trap or head it. My player lights her up from behind with a hit that would make Ronnie Lott cringe. I was expecting a red card for my player. Yellow at least. After their player was carried off of the field, referee says "drop ball. No foul. It was a 50/50 ball."
 
3. Girls 2004. My keeper goes up to make a save. Has the ball firmly in her hands over her head. Attacker plows into her. Knocks the ball loose and into the goal. Keeper is flat on her back and in tears. Referee says "goal". AR waves referee over to discuss the hit. Referee says "goal". Keeper is still flat on her back and referee never checked to see if she is ok. Opposing coach can't believe he allowed the goal. Game gets completely out of hand for the remaining 30 minutes and referee calls very few fouls. Including an incredibly dangerous hit from my defender into their center midfielder. Ball is up on the air. Their player is ready to chest trap or head it. My player lights her up from behind with a hit that would make Ronnie Lott cringe. I was expecting a red card for my player. Yellow at least. After their player was carried off of the field, referee says "drop ball. No foul. It was a 50/50 ball."

I make it a point to chat with more experienced refs whenever a baby ref like me gets placed on a team so that I can learn. The impression I get is that some refs believe very strongly in the "let 'em play" school that whistles disrupt the flow of the game and that kids should toughen up because soccer is a contact sport. It's also a very American school of refereeing (not saying it doesn't happen, but my experience in Spain was very different as is the experience of my son's little British penpal keeper). Nothing irritates me more than this type of ref (not the incompetent ref, the out of shape ref, the inexperienced ref, or the afraid to make the call ref). And then they get surprised the game gets away from them.
 
I make it a point to chat with more experienced refs whenever a baby ref like me gets placed on a team so that I can learn. The impression I get is that some refs believe very strongly in the "let 'em play" school that whistles disrupt the flow of the game and that kids should toughen up because soccer is a contact sport. It's also a very American school of refereeing (not saying it doesn't happen, but my experience in Spain was very different as is the experience of my son's little British penpal keeper). Nothing irritates me more than this type of ref (not the incompetent ref, the out of shape ref, the inexperienced ref, or the afraid to make the call ref). And then they get surprised the game gets away from them.

The one ref that scares me the most is the one that never played soccer.
 
I make it a point to chat with more experienced refs whenever a baby ref like me gets placed on a team so that I can learn. The impression I get is that some refs believe very strongly in the "let 'em play" school that whistles disrupt the flow of the game and that kids should toughen up because soccer is a contact sport. It's also a very American school of refereeing (not saying it doesn't happen, but my experience in Spain was very different as is the experience of my son's little British penpal keeper). Nothing irritates me more than this type of ref (not the incompetent ref, the out of shape ref, the inexperienced ref, or the afraid to make the call ref). And then they get surprised the game gets away from them.

"Let'em play" is fine as long as what they are letting them play is soccer.
 
My keeper has been the victim of the ball being knocked out of both of her hands while on the ground, then scrambles and then possesses the ball with one hand on numerous occasions. Has been kicked in the face a few times and fortunately has walked away only with a busted lip and some lumps on her head.

The ignorance regarding the one hand rule by the spectators is amazing, they think it's a green light to swing away and get so bloodthirsty for the goal, they forget there's a child there getting blasted. But I guess since it's not their kid it's okay.

On a sidenote, credit to the forwards my DD has played against lately jumping over her in 1 vs 1 situations, and when challenging for the ball stretching out to get a toe on it as opposed to a full swing when all it takes is getting there first before the keeper, not hitting it hard. I've seen a competitive respect as of late towards her in hard challenges and I can appreciate those kids parents and coaches for them teaching them to play hard but with respect for the game.
 
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