Understanding the "why"

[full90]

Just curious if anyone knows they "why" behind not having a single age group for U16 for boys. I don't understand why US soccer would keep adding clubs (and some mediocre ones at that, but that's a different topic) and ages and not spend that same money instead to keep a single age year. As has been noted on here, it's silly to miss this year in development, as well as lose kids who might be on the back end of growing.

Is that the point? Is this intentional by the DA to funnel the best 03's to the 02 team and "cull the herd" of the low group? Maybe US Soccer is trying to reduce the pool of 03's?

Has anyone heard the thought process behind this from US Soccer?

 

[MWN]

You are correct, "cull" the heard. By age 14 the boys have gone through their first growth spurt and their skill set is fairly well developed. The physical size difference between the 14 and 15 year olds isn't that great. Top talent at 14 can compete against 15 year olds without difficulty. The DA is purely about top talent.

With regard to this comment: "I don't understand why US soccer would keep adding clubs (and some mediocre ones at that, but that's a different topic) and ages and not spend that same money instead to keep a single age year."

Taking a step back, the USSDA pays nothing to DA affiliated clubs, it just manages the Development Academy league/program. The DA has adopted a pyramid structure that intentionally "culls" the heard as they reach U18. Because the National Team does not exclusively select from the USSDA, the USSDA doesn't care if some kids are lost and move to other programs (ODP, NPL, go to Europe, etc.).

Its costs the USSDA nothing to add lower level age groups because those costs are solely borne by the Clubs. The USSDA's model is to say to both tiers of clubs (MLS and Independents), you guys must solely bear all costs to participate in the DA program and you get nothing if your investments in these kids pays off ... unless you are an MLS affiliated DA program, in which case you get a "Homegrown Player" exemption that has value. For the non-MLS affiliated clubs, the DA is purely a marketing play that keeps their clubs competitive with the market and they support the DA teams through increased club fees to the non-DA teams (all those SCDSL, CSL, etc., teams).

The USSDA is also pushing hard for DA clubs that have U15/16 and U17/18 to have residential academies. If the USSDA were to add a single age group for U15, it would increase costs by a factor of 33% because we would have 3 teams instead of 2 teams. The MLS affiliated teams don't really care that much, but the Independents do.

So yes, culling is built in to the pyramid structure of many U12 teams and few U18 teams.

 

[SBFDad]

You are correct, "cull" the heard. By age 14 the boys have gone through their first growth spurt and their skill set is fairly well developed. The physical size difference between the 14 and 15 year olds isn't that great. Top talent at 14 can compete against 15 year olds without difficulty. The DA is purely about top talent.

With regard to this comment: "I don't understand why US soccer would keep adding clubs (and some mediocre ones at that, but that's a different topic) and ages and not spend that same money instead to keep a single age year."

Taking a step back, the USSDA pays nothing to DA affiliated clubs, it just manages the Development Academy league/program. The DA has adopted a pyramid structure that intentionally "culls" the heard as they reach U18. Because the National Team does not exclusively select from the USSDA, the USSDA doesn't care if some kids are lost and move to other programs (ODP, NPL, go to Europe, etc.).

Its costs the USSDA nothing to add lower level age groups because those costs are solely borne by the Clubs. The USSDA's model is to say to both tiers of clubs (MLS and Independents), you guys must solely bear all costs to participate in the DA program and you get nothing if your investments in these kids pays off ... unless you are an MLS affiliated DA program, in which case you get a "Homegrown Player" exemption that has value. For the non-MLS affiliated clubs, the DA is purely a marketing play that keeps their clubs competitive with the market and they support the DA teams through increased club fees to the non-DA teams (all those SCDSL, CSL, etc., teams).

The USSDA is also pushing hard for DA clubs that have U15/16 and U17/18 to have residential academies. If the USSDA were to add a single age group for U15, it would increase costs by a factor of 33% because we would have 3 teams instead of 2 teams. The MLS affiliated teams don't really care that much, but the Independents do.

So yes, culling is built in to the pyramid structure of many U12 teams and few U18 teams.

While all of this is likely true, there is the simple fact that many 03s next year will get considerably less playing time on an 02/03 team. This goes for MLS (LAG = 27x 01/02s rostered this season) and independents (Pats = 24x). Yes, some of those players are getting regular call-ups to the older age group, but plenty are riding pine with rosters this big. I think this is a mistake. In the end, a very small fraction of a percent of DA kids will play pro or for YNT/MNT. Those that are truly special with get what they need out of the system, but the rest will under-develop with the current set-up. Kids need to be playing to get better. A year of limited playing time at 15-16yrs old will set most of them back.

Heaven forbid USSF consider the needs of the vast majority of the kids in DA when making decisions like this. Yes, I know that they don’t give a shit about that, but as a parent of a DA player, I do. It’s unfortunate.

 

[True love]

US soccer is sending some good 03's after the season ended, to go play some other sports like basketball football baseball and track & field, I would do the same thing too, turn to other sports, USSDA is just for exercise purpose anyway, there is no way some and most of the good 03's is going back to a flight 1 team after this season ended to play soccer. These weren’t the figures I was really hoping for when someone told me that these changes were going to “increase development.”Dear US Soccer, please show me the statistics you found and the research you completed for these changes. I find it really hard to just follow someone’s word blindly… Show us the research, then we can talk.

 

[espola]

US soccer is sending some good 03's after the season ended, to go play some other sports like basketball football baseball and track & field, I would do the same thing too, turn to other sports, USSDA is just for exercise purpose anyway, there is no way some and most of the good 03's is going back to a flight 1 team after this season ended to play soccer. These weren’t the figures I was really hoping for when someone told me that these changes were going to “increase development.”Dear US Soccer, please show me the statistics you found and the research you completed for these changes. I find it really hard to just follow someone’s word blindly… Show us the research, then we can talk.

The only stat USSF has is that after 10 years of PDA effort, the US failed to make the World Cup for the first time since 1990.

 

[MWN]

While all of this is likely true, there is the simple fact that many 03s next year will get considerably less playing time on an 02/03 team ...

Consider that the real value of being on a DA team is not playing for 90 minutes (or 10 minutes) on a weekend, but training for 6 hours during the week and scrimmaging against your teammates and other local teams and having the "DA" pedigree on your college scholarship resume. Once we get to the composite groups we have identified who has the talent to continue. Yes, some will go to Flight 1 their "freshman" year and return to DA their "sophmore" year and 1 or 2 may eventually make a national team, but the DA is not concerned about the vast majority of those players because they will never be in the group of 36 under consideration for the National U16 team or the U17 team.

All this brings us back to what I perceive as a fundamental misunderstanding of parents whose kids are in the boys DA program. The boys DA is and will always be about identifying the top .01% of US Soccer talent. The remaining 4.99% are welcome to stay and play and help supports the financials of the league and possibly get a soccer scholarship, but these kids are college fodder and not US National Team candidates.

I'd also like to point out that "game" time is and has never been a stated goal of the USSDA. Indeed, their stated philosophy is "The Academy Program's philosophy is based on increased training, less total games, and more meaningful games using international rules of competition." (http://www.ussoccerda.com/overview-what-is-da)

This means that kids on the bench stay on the bench under international rules because only the top 14 on a team take the field.

 

[espola]

Consider that the real value of being on a DA team is not playing for 90 minutes (or 10 minutes) on a weekend, but training for 6 hours during the week and scrimmaging against your teammates and other local teams and having the "DA" pedigree on your college scholarship resume. Once we get to the composite groups we have identified who has the talent to continue. Yes, some will go to Flight 1 their "freshman" year and return to DA their "sophmore" year and 1 or 2 may eventually make a national team, but the DA is not concerned about the vast majority of those players because they will never be in the group of 36 under consideration for the National U16 team or the U17 team.

All this brings us back to what I perceive as a fundamental misunderstanding of parents whose kids are in the boys DA program. The boys DA is and will always be about identifying the top .01% of US Soccer talent. The remaining 4.99% are welcome to stay and play and help supports the financials of the league and possibly get a soccer scholarship, but these kids are college fodder and not US National Team candidates.

I'd also like to point out that "game" time is and has never been a stated goal of the USSDA. Indeed, their stated philosophy is "The Academy Program's philosophy is based on increased training, less total games, and more meaningful games using international rules of competition." (http://www.ussoccerda.com/overview-what-is-da)

This means that kids on the bench stay on the bench under international rules because only the top 14 on a team take the field.

0.01% plus 4.99% is only 5.00%.

 

[watfly]

The only stat USSF has is that after 10 years of PDA effort, the US failed to make the World Cup for the first time since 1990.

Not the only stat, they have also failed to qualify for the last two Olympics. I'm not a DA hater, my son just started and loves the intensity and competitiveness of the practices, but I'm realistic about what it impact it will have on my son. The "proof is in the pudding" as the DA has failed at its goal to produce world class players (at a rate any higher, and possibly lower, than Pre-DA times). The DA is structurally flawed and unless US Soccer puts substantially more skin in the game it will remain so.

 

[MWN]

0.01% plus 4.99% is only 5.00%.

Yes, that 5% is supposed to represent the top 5% of youth soccer players ... some say the DA targets the top 10%, but its really the top 5%. There are roughly 12M youth soccer players between USYS, AYSO, US Club and US Soccer. Of that 12M, 5% represents 600k (advanced) soccer players. Of that 600k, .001% represents 600 "Elite" players. At the U12-U15 level, US Soccer is fine with a wide base, but needs to do some serious culling at the U16/17+ ages. This is the reason for the composite age group.

Of those 600 elite players making up the U12-U19 ages, US Soccer is concerned with about 100 in each group, and will eventually pair those down to the top 36 and then top 24. Quite frankly, we would be doing a disservice to the goals of the program (identify and develop ELITE players) to allow the non-ELITE to continue to participate in the program.

My personal view is that US Soccer is f'ing it up because it treats the US as a single entity. Given our population size and the "potential" for hundreds of kids to be "elite" with proper training and development We should treat the various regions as single entities and allow the net to stay a little wider, because there are probably many more than 100 U16 kids that have the potential to become elite. But when you have only 96 U16/U17 teams in the US, each with at least 24 players that means there are 2,304 kids participating in the composite U16/U17 level, which is more than plenty to find 100 Elite in that U16 age group.

 

[Eagle33]

As a parent of kid who already went trough all of this previously, I can tell you that it's not all that bad. He had a chance to play a year of HS soccer with his mates and yes, Fight 1.
I got to tell you though, there are plenty good teams out there who don't play academy and will give your team and your kid a run for your DA money.
It's not like he's getting kicked out of DA, is it? I'm sure they will keep his team and training same for exception of few studs who will play with 02's.

 

[full90]

Thanks. That is helpful.

And it makes sense to narrow the field in the current system we have in place.

I think what I find odd is that out of our team, the kids that will make the composite team are big/strong/fast but rank in the bottom 1/3 of soccer IQ. In this most recent part of the season their size/strength/speed has been less and less effective as other kids grow and i watch them making the same dumb soccer choices over and over and over. Now, maybe US Soccer says, hey, "we can teach strong, fast kids to think the game" so it's a fair gamble to take those kids and throw them with the 02's and see who gets smarter. The kids I see who are soccer smart and actually solving soccer problems on the field and thinking 2 passes ahead won't make the composite team...it's become more obvious as the season goes on who the "soccer" players are and who the "athletes" are. And at least per parent chatter on sideline, the "athletes" will be moving up. Hopefully it works out....and I do think those guys should be in an environment where they can't just run past or muscle through opponents. No one on our team will be a pro, but it will be interesting to see in 5 years where everyone ends up. (my kid is neither small and smart or big and fast so without a dog in either fight it's been interesting to observe both groups altho I am sure I have my own biases so please note that I recognize that about myself). I just am bemoaning the fact that the soccer smart guys won't be in the same training environment for a year...and who knows what that cost will be?

 

[espola]

As a parent of kid who already went trough all of this previously, I can tell you that it's not all that bad. He had a chance to play a year of HS soccer with his mates and yes, Fight 1.
I got to tell you though, there are plenty good teams out there who don't play academy and will give your team and your kid a run for your DA money.
It's not like he's getting kicked out of DA, is it? I'm sure they will keep his team and training same for exception of few studs who will play with 02's.

One of the best raw soccer players I ever saw refused to play any higher than club rec level. Speed, size, reasonable foot skills for only playing in rec season. All the club coaches knew about him, but he couldn't be touched. His father was a former MLB player for several years, and the kid followed to a degree - 4-year college scholarship, but then was passed over in the MLB draft.

 

[MWN]

Thanks. That is helpful.

And it makes sense to narrow the field in the current system we have in place.

I think what I find odd is that out of our team, the kids that will make the composite team are big/strong/fast but rank in the bottom 1/3 of soccer IQ. In this most recent part of the season their size/strength/speed has been less and less effective as other kids grow and i watch them making the same dumb soccer choices over and over and over. Now, maybe US Soccer says, hey, "we can teach strong, fast kids to think the game" so it's a fair gamble to take those kids and throw them with the 02's and see who gets smarter. The kids I see who are soccer smart and actually solving soccer problems on the field and thinking 2 passes ahead won't make the composite team...it's become more obvious as the season goes on who the "soccer" players are and who the "athletes" are. And at least per parent chatter on sideline, the "athletes" will be moving up. Hopefully it works out....and I do think those guys should be in an environment where they can't just run past or muscle through opponents. No one on our team will be a pro, but it will be interesting to see in 5 years where everyone ends up. (my kid is neither small and smart or big and fast so without a dog in either fight it's been interesting to observe both groups altho I am sure I have my own biases so please note that I recognize that about myself). I just am bemoaning the fact that the soccer smart guys won't be in the same training environment for a year...and who knows what that cost will be?

Hopefully you are with a club that has the ability to keep the younger boys together on a Flight 1 team. I know in 2017, the 2002's were left in cold and a number of clubs simply kept the boys together on F1 teams in SCDSL, in fact I believe the top 3 finishers in the Champions league were all made up of primarily 2002 academy kids in an off year and Arsenal's DA team won the playoffs (finished 3rd in league).

Bottom line is US Soccer wants "smart athletic kids." To play at the highest level, if the speed isn't there the smarts don't mean much because everybody else is smart and athletic (quick/fast). Soccer IQ can be taught ... size and speed, not so much.

 

[Eagle33]

Soccer IQ can be taught ... size and speed, not so much.

I have to disagree on this statement. At 15 yo you don't know yet how big, strong or fast some of those boys will be. I will pick smart player any day over a track star. And you absolutely right, that's exactly how US Soccer thinks and that's why we can't make Olympics or a World Cup. We currently have great athletes with zero soccer IQ's.

 

[Eagle33]

Thanks. That is helpful.

And it makes sense to narrow the field in the current system we have in place.

I think what I find odd is that out of our team, the kids that will make the composite team are big/strong/fast but rank in the bottom 1/3 of soccer IQ. In this most recent part of the season their size/strength/speed has been less and less effective as other kids grow and i watch them making the same dumb soccer choices over and over and over. Now, maybe US Soccer says, hey, "we can teach strong, fast kids to think the game" so it's a fair gamble to take those kids and throw them with the 02's and see who gets smarter. The kids I see who are soccer smart and actually solving soccer problems on the field and thinking 2 passes ahead won't make the composite team...it's become more obvious as the season goes on who the "soccer" players are and who the "athletes" are. And at least per parent chatter on sideline, the "athletes" will be moving up. Hopefully it works out....and I do think those guys should be in an environment where they can't just run past or muscle through opponents. No one on our team will be a pro, but it will be interesting to see in 5 years where everyone ends up. (my kid is neither small and smart or big and fast so without a dog in either fight it's been interesting to observe both groups altho I am sure I have my own biases so please note that I recognize that about myself). I just am bemoaning the fact that the soccer smart guys won't be in the same training environment for a year...and who knows what that cost will be?

Don't confuse what US Soccer thinks vs what your current club thinks or do. Like I said, most DA's will keep the team together and he will still be training with same group and hopefully scrimmage your 04s DA few times. So training should stay the same. As far as games, you will get around the same amount of games in SCDSL and will be playing against other 03s DA who is on break just your team, as well as some good non DA clubs.

 

[MWN]

I have to disagree on this statement. At 15 yo you don't know yet how big, strong or fast some of those boys will be. I will pick smart player any day over a track star. And you absolutely right, that's exactly how US Soccer thinks and that's why we can't make Olympics or a World Cup. We currently have great athletes with zero soccer IQ's.

By age 15, the average boy is within an inch of their maximum height. From that point on its just adding "man" muscle to that slender frame and to your point, I agree, we don't know how quick/fast that kid is going to be. There are always exceptions (boys growing 4" from 15-17), but the reality is the vast majority of boys are done growing by age 16 and by age 17-19 their growth plates calcify and they are completely done.

I personally could see just treating the U18/19 as the composite group, but I'm also sympathetic to the fact that most U16/17 year old players are within 95% of their "man size."

 

[Zvezdas]

I come from Europe and my son currently plays on a DA club, anyways i am puzzled why most of the people on this board blame USSDA for usmnt failure to qualify for the wc? Italians are not blaming their academy system for the failure. One of the main reasons why usmnt failed is the mls, the league in every nation is the force behind the national team. I dont expect much from the academy system here or anywhere else on the planet, chances that my kid will play on the national team are super low and i have no illusions, thats not why we joined the DA team. People in Europe are much more realistic when it comes to their kids who play on pro-club academies, they know that their kids can be cut anytime, and they also understand that there is a small chance that their kid will make it to a professional side and sign that pro contract!

 

[Dr. Richard Hurtz]

Hopefully you are with a club that has the ability to keep the younger boys together on a Flight 1 team. I know in 2017, the 2002's were left in cold and a number of clubs simply kept the boys together on F1 teams in SCDSL, in fact I believe the top 3 finishers in the Champions league were all made up of primarily 2002 academy kids in an off year and Arsenal's DA team won the playoffs (finished 3rd in league).

Bottom line is US Soccer wants "smart athletic kids." To play at the highest level, if the speed isn't there the smarts don't mean much because everybody else is smart and athletic (quick/fast). Soccer IQ can be taught ... size and speed, not so much.

Yes

Hopefully you are with a club that has the ability to keep the younger boys together on a Flight 1 team. I know in 2017, the 2002's were left in cold and a number of clubs simply kept the boys together on F1 teams in SCDSL, in fact I believe the top 3 finishers in the Champions league were all made up of primarily 2002 academy kids in an off year and Arsenal's DA team won the playoffs (finished 3rd in league).

Bottom line is US Soccer wants "smart athletic kids." To play at the highest level, if the speed isn't there the smarts don't mean much because everybody else is smart and athletic (quick/fast). Soccer IQ can be taught ... size and speed, not so much.

Yes I agree. Soccer I.Q. can be taught.. well somewhat, I wouldn’t say all of it. But the US hasn’t been teaching it to the bigger and faster stronger kids.. that’s why our national team can’t qualify for the Olympics and World Cup. I’m just saying stop picking the stronger athletes. It’s time to pick real soccer players. Guys who are smart!!

 

[Dr. Richard Hurtz]

And by your reasoning that boys are almost comeplety done growing by 17 and are almost a man.. well then I guess their soccer brains must be done growing too?? Give me the smaller kid who’s smart any day over these giants. This is dumb

 

[Lambchop]

By age 15, the average boy is within an inch of their maximum height. From that point on its just adding "man" muscle to that slender frame and to your point, I agree, we don't know how quick/fast that kid is going to be. There are always exceptions (boys growing 4" from 15-17), but the reality is the vast majority of boys are done growing by age 16 and by age 17-19 their growth plates calcify and they are completely done.

I personally could see just treating the U18/19 as the composite group, but I'm also sympathetic to the fact that most U16/17 year old players are within 95% of their "man size."

All the males in my family had their biggest growth spurt between 17-20! A couple of friends have sons playing D1 right now, both of their sons grew in college. One is graduating in May and grew 2 inches in college, was 6' and is now 6'2, the other was 5'10 and is now 5'11 and is a junior.