This Weekend Made Me Scratch My Head

[Not_that_Serious]

One of my games had a 11v11 teen game with one ref. Kid was probably about 18 trying to manage some physical teams - he didn’t do too well. I have heard many games not having any refs - I do not know what SCDSL is doing.

One of our kids hits a kid on the back of the legs trying to go for the ball. Other kid take exception and takes a hail maker at our kid. The other kid had to be restrained. The ref gives our kid a yellow and then gives other kid a yellow. Had to take a few minutes for my mouth to close before addressing the red. It was asked of the ref how he could expect kids not to defend themselves while attempting to be punched and then expect a bunch of other teens not to come in and help their friends from getting punched? How he also not made it only a yellow card offense to punch a kid - as the intent was to knock out kid out regardless of the punch landed or not. I also explained the other team now understands that anything, including a punch, is only a yellow. Which they took liberty in doing when the striker waited to about 3-one-thousand count to forearm shiver our keeper after he got the ball - no card. Called an offside on a 1v1 when he was trailing 10 yards on the play and clearly our player wasn’t - which we chalked up to bad officiating until what was told to us at the end of the game.

A parent told me the ref got in a car of one other teams players. I don’t know if that is true. Never had to ask for a game report to make sure a ref noted incidents. We asked the ref about 4 times to make sure to include the incident in the report - he said he did. Anyone know where to follow up? Just want to make sure incident was reported and to how it was reported.

Scdsl messing up this season with refs. Besides the safety issues going from being up in the game to dropping full points can mess up a team’s season.

 

[NumberTen]

Keep on complaining and eventual there will be no refs. He was probably the only ref to show up and could have cancelled the game. I am sure the he lost the game for you too.

 

[Not_that_Serious]

Nope, our errors lost us the game. Are you saying full swings at a player are fine? I should just be happy A ref showed up, not like they don’t get paid to show up. Cancelling the game? For what, wasted gas and. I pay for the ref? Also no one disrespected the ref (parents, coaches or players on either side) even after the incident. Actually very proud our kid (who can be very temperamental) did not punch back and other kids restrained Not on the kid for not having more support - again no idea why he made the call. Second people act as if complaints are not how things are changed. Been told “how it is” about a lot of stuff, and if I accepted that answer for most things, life wouldn’t have improved for those I’m responsible for. I also found direct number to person that I need to talk to. Just seeing why full swings would be tolerated by any ref

 

[umeweall]

Nope, our errors lost us the game. Are you saying full swings at a player are fine? I should just be happy A ref showed up, not like they don’t get paid to show up. Cancelling the game? For what, wasted gas and. I pay for the ref? Also no one disrespected the ref (parents, coaches or players on either side) even after the incident. Actually very proud our kid (who can be very temperamental) did not punch back and other kids restrained Not on the kid for not having more support - again no idea why he made the call. Second people act as if complaints are not how things are changed. Been told “how it is” about a lot of stuff, and if I accepted that answer for most things, life wouldn’t have improved for those I’m responsible for. I also found direct number to person that I need to talk to. Just seeing why full swings would be tolerated by any ref

A swing, hit or miss, is punishable by being ejected from the game. This is a basic, firm, rule.

 

[Tea and Busquets]

Nope, our errors lost us the game. Are you saying full swings at a player are fine? I should just be happy A ref showed up, not like they don’t get paid to show up. Cancelling the game? For what, wasted gas and. I pay for the ref? Also no one disrespected the ref (parents, coaches or players on either side) even after the incident. Actually very proud our kid (who can be very temperamental) did not punch back and other kids restrained Not on the kid for not having more support - again no idea why he made the call. Second people act as if complaints are not how things are changed. Been told “how it is” about a lot of stuff, and if I accepted that answer for most things, life wouldn’t have improved for those I’m responsible for. I also found direct number to person that I need to talk to. Just seeing why full swings would be tolerated by any ref

Just to clear up. You don't pay for the refs. The team pays for referees. Your contribution to referee fees is part of paying to play soccer. It's so easy to feel entitled to have nothing but the best referees all the time. Reality is different. Some are very good. Some are less so. Don't like it? Pull your kid out of soccer?

That said, it sounds like you had someone who was new to refereeing. An attempted punch should be a red card. Maybe he was told as much after the game. But these are all part of the learning process for new referees, just like your player learning what the right pass is in a 3 on 1 situation. End of the day, sport is not a black and white, good or bad situation. Yes, sometimes referees get things wrong, but it helps kids get experience dealing with adversity.

All of the above in my opinion, obviously.

 

[Not_that_Serious]

Just to clear up. You don't pay for the refs. The team pays for referees. Your contribution to referee fees is part of paying to play soccer. It's so easy to feel entitled to have nothing but the best referees all the time. Reality is different. Some are very good. Some are less so. Don't like it? Pull your kid out of soccer?

That said, it sounds like you had someone who was new to refereeing. An attempted punch should be a red card. Maybe he was told as much after the game. But these are all part of the learning process for new referees, just like your player learning what the right pass is in a 3 on 1 situation. End of the day, sport is not a black and white, good or bad situation. Yes, sometimes referees get things wrong, but it helps kids get experience dealing with adversity.

All of the above in my opinion, obviously.

I did mean “we” but I did literally hand the money over to him. I don’t expect much from refs but expect them to: know the rules, be on time, be fair and prioritize safety. The pay is in exchange for a service and there is a level of expectation- the minimum expectations are even written out for them. Hell I don’t even expect refs to be “nice” or cordial. I would like them to control the game but can’t always expect them from a young kid. Someone not knowing a rule, one you are suppose to enforce (also being paid to know) , shouldn’t be chalked up to the learning process - not like we are talking about a sub rule or how many minutes per half for the age group. The parallel of the child learning how to play soccer is apples and oranges. Taking swings at kids (violent red card conduct) would be more equivalent of telling a kid playing soccer not to use their hands. It’s even a basic societal construct- keep your hands to yourself. From what I’ve found, really no one forcing improvements...until someone is hurt. At that point it is pretty silly - and this kid learning how to ref better would be pretty moot. I believe for some reason (off what he told me) he was making excuses why he wasn’t going to run the kid in question.

 

[Tea and Busquets]

I did mean “we” but I did literally hand the money over to him. I don’t expect much from refs but expect them to: know the rules, be on time, be fair and prioritize safety. The pay is in exchange for a service and there is a level of expectation- the minimum expectations are even written out for them. Hell I don’t even expect refs to be “nice” or cordial. I would like them to control the game but can’t always expect them from a young kid. Someone not knowing a rule, one you are suppose to enforce (also being paid to know) , shouldn’t be chalked up to the learning process - not like we are talking about a sub rule or how many minutes per half for the age group. The parallel of the child learning how to play soccer is apples and oranges. Taking swings at kids (violent red card conduct) would be more equivalent of telling a kid playing soccer not to use their hands. It’s even a basic societal construct- keep your hands to yourself. From what I’ve found, really no one forcing improvements...until someone is hurt. At that point it is pretty silly - and this kid learning how to ref better would be pretty moot. I believe for some reason (off what he told me) he was making excuses why he wasn’t going to run the kid in question.

Understand why people feel that way. However, I'm sure parents who didn't literally hand money over felt they paid the referees as well. That feeling is pervasive across almost all games I referee/coach/watch.

As with any job, there are people who do it well, those who are still learning, and those who just show up to get a pay check. In this case, hopefully the referee learns and he is more aware next time. Just as a (weak) counter, all referees are taught that striking is an offense. Fewer pay attention to the "or attempting to strike" part. Attempting to trip and attempting to kick are also offenses. How irate would parents/coaches/players be if those were called more often?

End of the day, sounds like no one got really hurt. Obviously that should not be the standard. But you describe an obvious foul by your team, which a teenager took offense to and then missed with a hay maker. I don't see a yellow card as so wrong. I wasn't there to see it, so difficult to say. All I'm getting at is that maybe the lack of a red card wasn't the most egregious oversight ever.

 

[Surfref]

One of my games had a 11v11 teen game with one ref. Kid was probably about 18 trying to manage some physical teams - he didn’t do too well. I have heard many games not having any refs - I do not know what SCDSL is doing.

One of our kids hits a kid on the back of the legs trying to go for the ball. Other kid take exception and takes a hail maker at our kid. The other kid had to be restrained. The ref gives our kid a yellow and then gives other kid a yellow. Had to take a few minutes for my mouth to close before addressing the red. It was asked of the ref how he could expect kids not to defend themselves while attempting to be punched and then expect a bunch of other teens not to come in and help their friends from getting punched? How he also not made it only a yellow card offense to punch a kid - as the intent was to knock out kid out regardless of the punch landed or not. I also explained the other team now understands that anything, including a punch, is only a yellow. Which they took liberty in doing when the striker waited to about 3-one-thousand count to forearm shiver our keeper after he got the ball - no card. Called an offside on a 1v1 when he was trailing 10 yards on the play and clearly our player wasn’t - which we chalked up to bad officiating until what was told to us at the end of the game.

A parent told me the ref got in a car of one other teams players. I don’t know if that is true. Never had to ask for a game report to make sure a ref noted incidents. We asked the ref about 4 times to make sure to include the incident in the report - he said he did. Anyone know where to follow up? Just want to make sure incident was reported and to how it was reported.

Scdsl messing up this season with refs. Besides the safety issues going from being up in the game to dropping full points can mess up a team’s season.

I have said this before, VIDEO all of your games. You can complain to the gaming league and referee association, but if you don’t have video evidence the complaint is almost useless. The clubs contract with referee associations to provide referees. There is a shortage of referees so not every game is going to get a full crew. We are losing far too many referees every year because they are tired of the parents and coaches yelling at them. So, just stop yelling at the referees especially the younger ones.

 

[Not_that_Serious]

Understand why people feel that way. However, I'm sure parents who didn't literally hand money over felt they paid the referees as well. That feeling is pervasive across almost all games I referee/coach/watch.

As with any job, there are people who do it well, those who are still learning, and those who just show up to get a pay check. In this case, hopefully the referee learns and he is more aware next time. Just as a (weak) counter, all referees are taught that striking is an offense. Fewer pay attention to the "or attempting to strike" part. Attempting to trip and attempting to kick are also offenses. How irate would parents/coaches/players be if those were called more often?

End of the day, sounds like no one got really hurt. Obviously that should not be the standard. But you describe an obvious foul by your team, which a teenager took offense to and then missed with a hay maker. I don't see a yellow card as so wrong. I wasn't there to see it, so difficult to say. All I'm getting at is that maybe the lack of a red card wasn't the most egregious oversight ever.

I don’t know what would be more egregious except the times I have seen intentional late tackles or ones from behind that seriously injured players - sometimes not even getting cards. In those cases the ref argued “intent” - which logically you could not say the intent was to injure. Could only reason intentional intent due to events prior - but you could Understand the refs logic. In this case a kid lashed out because he couldn’t control himself and attempted to hurt another player. One only swings with an intent to harm the person they are swinging at - regardless if the punch lands. Other then that, and a striker being allowed to forearm smack our keeper, there wasn’t any arguing or real cheap stuff going on. Instances where someone made a hard foul, kids were cordial. Just a couple of kids who had some issues controlling themselves - which doesn’t just go on the shoulders of the ref to control. Again, from what the ref directly told me, he basically said our kid kicked him in the legs on the attempt to dispossess the player so it was an okay reaction for the opposing player to attempt to clobber him. Which I explained to him you then create a situation where a precedent is set for the kids to punch others if they feel they were fouled hard - also can not reasonably expect our player’s not to retaliate. Honestly I’m proud both teams had players who could practice self restraint and limited it to one kid blowing his top. Wouldn’t have been a good teaching moment for that ref if a fight had broken out, maybe if it was on film for other refs to see

Understand why people feel that way. However, I'm sure parents who didn't literally hand money over felt they paid the referees as well. That feeling is pervasive across almost all games I referee/coach/watch.

As with any job, there are people who do it well, those who are still learning, and those who just show up to get a pay check. In this case, hopefully the referee learns and he is more aware next time. Just as a (weak) counter, all referees are taught that striking is an offense. Fewer pay attention to the "or attempting to strike" part. Attempting to trip and attempting to kick are also offenses. How irate would parents/coaches/players be if those were called more often?

End of the day, sounds like no one got really hurt. Obviously that should not be the standard. But you describe an obvious foul by your team, which a teenager took offense to and then missed with a hay maker. I don't see a yellow card as so wrong. I wasn't there to see it, so difficult to say. All I'm getting at is that maybe the lack of a red card wasn't the most egregious oversight ever.

 

[Not_that_Serious]

I have said this before, VIDEO all of your games. You can complain to the gaming league and referee association, but if you don’t have video evidence the complaint is almost useless. The clubs contract with referee associations to provide referees. There is a shortage of referees so not every game is going to get a full crew. We are losing far too many referees every year because they are tired of the parents and coaches yelling at them. So, just stop yelling at the referees especially the younger ones.

I agree about yelling. Can say no one yelled at the kid. Asked questions and had discussions at half time and after the game - incident t was a couple minutes before the half. Told him our point of view as mentioned above. Really does seem there is a shortage of refs, have had a few games already where no games have shown up to start a game. We have a couple kids on our team that started to ref - according to them they haven’t experienced anything more than a couple loud parents yelling at their own kids.

 

[coachrefparent]

I've tried to follow this thread, but my head explodes each time I try to follow these run-on, punctuation-less posts.

 

[Surfref]

I agree about yelling. Can say no one yelled at the kid. Asked questions and had discussions at half time and after the game - incident t was a couple minutes before the half. Told him our point of view as mentioned above. Really does seem there is a shortage of refs, have had a few games already where no games have shown up to start a game. We have a couple kids on our team that started to ref - according to them they haven’t experienced anything more than a couple loud parents yelling at their own kids.

It sounds like you showed restraint by not yelling at the poor referee. I say poor referee, because I have been a solo referee on a few B16-18 games over the years. It is extremely difficult and should only be attempted by an experienced referee. If I was that young referee, I would be pissed off at my assigner. An attempt to strike another player is almost always a straight red card. Video tape every game so you have evidence if you need to file a complaint. As a referee, I always assume my games are video taped.

 

[Surfref]

Good luck trying to get SCDSL to take any type of action. I have heard many horror stories about their ineptitude and lack of response or desire to do anything.

 

[watfly]

My kid played SCDSL a couple of years ago and the refs for the OC games were of noticeably lower quality than what we had previously experienced in Presidio/SDDA. We never had 3 refs in our OC games but almost always had 3 refs for our SD games in SCDSL. I just assumed that there was a severe ref shortage in the OC.

 

[Toch]

I agree about yelling. Can say no one yelled at the kid. Asked questions and had discussions at half time and after the game - incident t was a couple minutes before the half. Told him our point of view as mentioned above. Really does seem there is a shortage of refs, have had a few games already where no games have shown up to start a game. We have a couple kids on our team that started to ref - according to them they haven’t experienced anything more than a couple loud parents yelling at their own kids.

Sounds like you are one of those whiney parents that didn’t get the call they felt they were entitled to.
Goodness, for all we know this kid didn’t even swing and you’re over here marking things up. Parents tend to do that. I had a parent on my team tell bloody murder every time her kid was touched. One day I pulled the kid out and told him to go babysit his parents.

 

[Frank]

My kid played SCDSL a couple of years ago and the refs for the OC games were of noticeably lower quality than what we had previously experienced in Presidio/SDDA. We never had 3 refs in our OC games but almost always had 3 refs for our SD games in SCDSL. I just assumed that there was a severe ref shortage in the OC.

In general (notice I said general) the more experienced OC referees migrate to the higher end games (great park for csl premier and silver lakes for scdsl champions). Better games, better pay and usually less headaches. In San Diego I don’t believe there are separate venues for the higher end games so that may allow for more experienced referees to handle all levels of play.

 

[TangoCity]

I have said this before, VIDEO all of your games. You can complain to the gaming league and referee association, but if you don’t have video evidence the complaint is almost useless. The clubs contract with referee associations to provide referees. There is a shortage of referees so not every game is going to get a full crew. We are losing far too many referees every year because they are tired of the parents and coaches yelling at them. So, just stop yelling at the referees especially the younger ones.

We video tape every game. We have taped some pretty BAD stuff. The gaming league does not care about your video from my experience. There is only one thing they care about.

 

[greekgirl]

In general (notice I said general) the more experienced OC referees migrate to the higher end games (great park for csl premier and silver lakes for scdsl champions). Better games, better pay and usually less headaches. In San Diego I don’t believe there are separate venues for the higher end games so that may allow for more experienced referees to handle all levels of play.

I'm not sure about this year - but last year, SCDSL paid less to the referees than Presidio/SDDA for the same age/time length games. I did some of those games last year and honestly a few dollars less wasn't a big deal for me because the games were near my home; however, for some referees that difference in pay could be alot more important. My dd plays CSL and most of their games are at OC Great Park. Last week she complained about the ref's but this week, she said the ref's were good. I wasn't at her game, so I can't comment on them.

 

[Surfref]

We video tape every game. We have taped some pretty BAD stuff. The gaming league does not care about your video from my experience. There is only one thing they care about.

Would that be money?

 

[Surfref]

In San Diego County, Presidio, SDDA, SCDSL, CSL and ECNL get their refs pulled from the same associations depending on the Club. DA games get the higher level refs, but those refs also work the other leagues. In one day I may work a Presidio game, a couple SDDA games and a couple SCDSL or CSL games. Usually at the same venue, just different fields. It all depends where the assigner sends me.