Pay to Play

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watfly

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Be Reasonable: Let's Stop Saying "Eliminate Pay-to-Play"

Originally published on SoccerParenting.com - February 4, 2018 Can we talk about Pay-to-Play for a moment? Can we be rational and realistic about the financial model youth sports is based upon and stop calling for an end to Pay-to-Play? Can we pause, reflect and recognize that it is impossible to en
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Interesting article. I don't know that I agree with all of it (not that offended by tournaments) but I strongly believe in higher coaching standards. To do that, though, coaching education needs to be cheaper and more readily available...that means you, US Soccer. Maybe the money US Soccer is saving from not having DA can go towards that end.
 
watfly said:
www.linkedin.com

Be Reasonable: Let's Stop Saying "Eliminate Pay-to-Play"

Originally published on SoccerParenting.com - February 4, 2018 Can we talk about Pay-to-Play for a moment? Can we be rational and realistic about the financial model youth sports is based upon and stop calling for an end to Pay-to-Play? Can we pause, reflect and recognize that it is impossible to en
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com

Interesting article. I don't know that I agree with all of it (not that offended by tournaments) but I strongly believe in higher coaching standards. To do that, though, coaching education needs to be cheaper and more readily available...that means you, US Soccer. Maybe the money US Soccer is saving from not having DA can go towards that end.
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I love Skye. I've done a bit of stuff with her on soccer parenting. She's awesome and a real voice for reform.

The issue is we've seen what her call for more voluntarism is: AYSO United. I think it's great that AYSO United is more affordable for working class kids. I think they've done a tremendous job in coaching support and in educating volunteer coaches and in bringing professionals to run things. I think it's a good product. I love that AYSO is now tiering things for appropriate levels.

But there are 2 issues with it. 1. is the pathway. The highest tiered players still leave AYSO United because of the roof at the top of the pyramid....they want to go off and pursue MLS, DA, and ENCL. and 2. it still has a daddy ball mentality that's tough to break because the coaches all come up from the rec program where they picked up the bad habits. Winning is everything. I still remember in U7 AYSO Core the celebration one team did when they whipped us 20-7....really for a meaningless 6 year olds game. The pursuit of winning causes coaches to take developmental short cuts at the youngers levels: running games instead of passing, never passing the ball back, free throws down the line, big legged goalkickers, keepers punting (which the build out line was suppose to stop but they still all do when its removed), upgrade recruitments, recruiting the bigger kids, asking keepers to do things before they are trained and ready. The entire Extras tryout assessment, for example, is slated to pick out faster players and not necessarily players with individual skills (goalkeeper, defending, crossing, off ball movement). The coaches that move up to United are typically those with the "best" experiences in Core and Extras which are the ones that got the win or have kids that sufficiently carried their teams that the offense was built around them.

Paid coaches have an issue with winning too, but they also recognize there's a tradeoff and have to teach the kids something. Volunteer coaches have no such skin in the game. They may only be on the team 1 year (with their kid later on moving to MLS or other elite leagues). And there's the attitude: why do I have to do this if I'm not even getting paid.

Skye's solution is to rethink the tournament structure so trophys aren't that important. But it still carries over to the bracket system. It has a distinct little league feeling to it, which isn't conducive to soccer growth.
 
Grace T. said:
I love Skye. I've done a bit of stuff with her on soccer parenting. She's awesome and a real voice for reform.

The issue is we've seen what her call for more voluntarism is: AYSO United. I think it's great that AYSO United is more affordable for working class kids. I think they've done a tremendous job in coaching support and in educating volunteer coaches and in bringing professionals to run things. I think it's a good product. I love that AYSO is now tiering things for appropriate levels.

But there are 2 issues with it. 1. is the pathway. The highest tiered players still leave AYSO United because of the roof at the top of the pyramid....they want to go off and pursue MLS, DA, and ENCL. and 2. it still has a daddy ball mentality that's tough to break because the coaches all come up from the rec program where they picked up the bad habits. Winning is everything. I still remember in U7 AYSO Core the celebration one team did when they whipped us 20-7....really for a meaningless 6 year olds game. The pursuit of winning causes coaches to take developmental short cuts at the youngers levels: running games instead of passing, never passing the ball back, free throws down the line, big legged goalkickers, keepers punting (which the build out line was suppose to stop but they still all do when its removed), upgrade recruitments, recruiting the bigger kids, asking keepers to do things before they are trained and ready. The entire Extras tryout assessment, for example, is slated to pick out faster players and not necessarily players with individual skills (goalkeeper, defending, crossing, off ball movement). The coaches that move up to United are typically those with the "best" experiences in Core and Extras which are the ones that got the win or have kids that sufficiently carried their teams that the offense was built around them.

Paid coaches have an issue with winning too, but they also recognize there's a tradeoff and have to teach the kids something. Volunteer coaches have no such skin in the game. They may only be on the team 1 year (with their kid later on moving to MLS or other elite leagues). And there's the attitude: why do I have to do this if I'm not even getting paid.

Skye's solution is to rethink the tournament structure so trophys aren't that important. But it still carries over to the bracket system. It has a distinct little league feeling to it, which isn't conducive to soccer growth.
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Such nonsense. The idea that youth soccer will get better if only people will do a better job and do it for less money is ridiculous.

The most effective way to improve youth soccer is for areas like SoCal to stop propping up regions that cannot support themselves. Many of the best players in the country are wasting hours traveling to play s**t teams when that time could have been spent training, playing games against better local teams or doing things that make you a well rounded person. And throwing money away on hotels and plane flights that prices many kids out of the sport and that could be used to pay for better coaches. Stop this fantasy of trying to make everyone in America their best possible soccer player. Let kids in LV grow up to be strippers, card dealers, or whatever else people do in LV. In the end, the market will take care of this. In fact, it already is, as shown by the collapse of the GDA.
 
Hey EOTL, I’m always interested in what you’ve got to say- insightful, smart, serious...but why o why always so caustic?
 
If your not paying, you're not playing
If your not cheating, your not trying
If you scratch my_________, I will never scratch yours!!!!

Let go of soccer is all can say so ALL the kids play for free. At a certain age, the best keep playing for free because the best players in America should be able to have it all paid for. If your kid missed the cut for free, then go pay some coach to make you a goat :)
 
The only park pick up games i see here in the states,, are full of adults. Spontaneous soccer is wayyyyyyy to restricted. Pay all you want,, U.S. kids are too priveledged, and until they can go play in the dirt they arent goin to be able to compete. Cant throw money at the problem. The best athletes are socio-economically kept from the elite coaching and competition. call it pay to play,, call it psuedo racism, classism, The best players in the states, are hispanic,, but the majority of the kids on the top teams are caucasian. The best, biggest, fastest athletes in the u.s. are black , playing football and basketball. Unless your spotlighting theese issues,,, your beating around the bush, with the pay to play stuff. America will continue to be subpar compared to the rest of the world when it comes to competitive soccer.
 
RuffRef said:
The only park pick up games i see here in the states,, are full of adults. Spontaneous soccer is wayyyyyyy to restricted. Pay all you want,, U.S. kids are too priveledged, and until they can go play in the dirt they arent goin to be able to compete. Cant throw money at the problem. The best athletes are socio-economically kept from the elite coaching and competition. call it pay to play,, call it psuedo racism, classism, The best players in the states, are hispanic,, but the majority of the kids on the top teams are caucasian. The best, biggest, fastest athletes in the u.s. are black , playing football and basketball. Unless your spotlighting theese issues,,, your beating around the bush, with the pay to play stuff. America will continue to be subpar compared to the rest of the world when it comes to competitive soccer.
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evidence of this is shown on the women's side. Soccer in America gets the majority of the premier athletes and we dominate
 
EOTL said:
Such nonsense. The idea that youth soccer will get better if only people will do a better job and do it for less money is ridiculous.

The most effective way to improve youth soccer is for areas like SoCal to stop propping up regions that cannot support themselves. Many of the best players in the country are wasting hours traveling to play s**t teams when that time could have been spent training, playing games against better local teams or doing things that make you a well rounded person. And throwing money away on hotels and plane flights that prices many kids out of the sport and that could be used to pay for better coaches. Stop this fantasy of trying to make everyone in America their best possible soccer player. Let kids in LV grow up to be strippers, card dealers, or whatever else people do in LV. In the end, the market will take care of this. In fact, it already is, as shown by the collapse of the GDA.
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You are usually a f--ing crackpot, but then you utter something profound.
 
EOTL said:
Such nonsense. The idea that youth soccer will get better if only people will do a better job and do it for less money is ridiculous.

The most effective way to improve youth soccer is for areas like SoCal to stop propping up regions that cannot support themselves. Many of the best players in the country are wasting hours traveling to play s**t teams when that time could have been spent training, playing games against better local teams or doing things that make you a well rounded person. And throwing money away on hotels and plane flights that prices many kids out of the sport and that could be used to pay for better coaches. Stop this fantasy of trying to make everyone in America their best possible soccer player. Let kids in LV grow up to be strippers, card dealers, or whatever else people do in LV. In the end, the market will take care of this. In fact, it already is, as shown by the collapse of the GDA.
Click to expand...
Even without GDA, we still have a league where kids waste hours on travel to play s**t teams. More than one, actually.
 
EOTL said:
Such nonsense. The idea that youth soccer will get better if only people will do a better job and do it for less money is ridiculous.

Stop this fantasy of trying to make everyone in America their best possible soccer player. Let kids in LV grow up to be strippers, card dealers, or whatever else people do in LV. In the end, the market will take care of this. In fact, it already is, as shown by the collapse of the GDA.
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Whaaat? I don't even know who you are anymore.
 
Eagle33 said:
Past tense. Women soccer dominated only until the rest of the word started to recognize it. Everyone is catching up pretty fast now.
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This is a joke, right? The WNT has won two straight world cups and lost one game in four years, a pre-WC friendly against France that it sandbagged because it didn’t want to show its hand before the WC. The WNT is on an unprecedented run never before seen in the history of women’s soccer. Never in its history has the US been more dominant compared to the rest of the world.

No one is catching up. There are a handful of countries that can compete and maybe beat the US on their best day, but they’ll fade and be replaced by other countries as has always been the case.
 
The HB Dad said:
evidence of this is shown on the women's side. Soccer in America gets the majority of the premier athletes and we dominate
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this sentiment. We have more kids playing soccer than any other country (although that study is dated), only Germany is remotely close. Soccer in the US gets its fair share of great athletes and there have been plenty of black players on the USMNT roster the last 8 years, although I see very few in the youth ranks in Socal. Anecdotally of my son's friends, the best athletes are by far the soccer players. (Lacrosse players are pretty close). I can't say I've ever looked at a USMNT and didn't think they were not athletic. Poor decision making, vision and first touch, absolutely, but weak athletically, never.

IMO opinion the USWNT has done well because they got a jump start on the other countries. That gap is closing quickly.
 
watfly said:
IMO opinion the USWNT has done well because they got a jump start on the other countries. That gap is closing quickly.
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This is going to hurt really bad, like really bad...but...I have to agree with EOTL on this one ( I know, hush). While the gap has closed and made games more competitive, the USWNT will never truly be challenged over the long term. Countries will come and go and will beat us on occasion, even during world cups and olympics. What isn't going to happen is a shift in dominance over a period of time. The sheer volume of players that the US has to choose from dwarfs what any country can do. Their will be countries that have a great year, for sure, but none will last beyond that year.

I do believe that the NWSL may be in jeopardy if the Euro leagues pump as much money into their women's league as they are saying they will. That's yet to be seen. Women's sports in Europe are not a draw, or at least they haven't been.
 
happy9 said:
This is going to hurt really bad, like really bad...but...I have to agree with EOTL on this one ( I know, hush). While the gap has closed and made games more competitive, the USWNT will never truly be challenged over the long term. Countries will come and go and will beat us on occasion, even during world cups and olympics. What isn't going to happen is a shift in dominance over a period of time. The sheer volume of players that the US has to choose from dwarfs what any country can do. Their will be countries that have a great year, for sure, but none will last beyond that year.

I do believe that the NWSL may be in jeopardy if the Euro leagues pump as much money into their women's league as they are saying they will. That's yet to be seen. Women's sports in Europe are not a draw, or at least they haven't been.
Click to expand...
I don't really disagree, I still think the USWNT will be one of the strongest teams in the foreseeable future due to the sheer availability of players, but their initial dominance had a lot to do with their jump on the sport.
 
watfly said:
I don't really disagree, I still think the USWNT will be one of the strongest teams in the foreseeable future due to the sheer availability of players, but their initial dominance had a lot to do with their jump on the sport.
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There was never the initial dominance that you describe. This is the first time in history that the WNT has won two straight WCs. It’s the first time in history that they’ve one such a high percentage of their games. The WNT has also come in 3rd in three WCs. If anything, the US has been putting more distance between itself and the test of the world.

There has always been this panicky sky is falling nonsense that the world is catching up. Every time the WNT loses, even in a friendly playing second tier players, people freak out. And apparently they do even when the WNT wins all of their games.

There is not a single objective measure to suggest any country is more likely to beat the US than at any time in history. Probably there are more teams that don’t completely suck, but the number of countries that could even conceivably beat the US at full strength has always been about 2.

Oh, and one more point - Catarina Macario is coming. We’re fine for another 10 years at least.
 
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