US SOCCER

Discussion in 'SoCalScene' started by Dominic, Jun 26, 2018.

  1. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    After Title IX became law, the NCAA created scholarship limits for the various sports, which was supposed to accomplish two things (1) primarily prevent schools from hoarding athletes to ensure competitive balance between members schools and (2) secondarily assist schools in meeting the new Title IX mandates by disproportionately limiting scholarships available to men v. women. Note, the two men's money sports, football and basketball receive enough scholarships to field multiple teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd string). The other sports, by NCAA rules are limited, often based on "equivalency rules," versus the "head count" rules. Thus, partial scholarships are handed out so coaches can field a team. With regard to soccer, the limits are (see, http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html):
    • NCAA DI = 9.9 for men, 14 for woman
    • NCAA DII 9 for men and 9.9 for women
    The other two college sports associations, treat men and women equally, thus, this is an NCAA problem and not directly related to Title IX, because these associations have chosen to allow schools to manage the Title IX mandates.
    • NAIA 12 for both
    • NJCAA 24 for both
    Ultimately, my only point here is that the NCAA is doing no favors to soccer and the popularity of the sport will not occur via the college system because a coach cannot even field an entire team with full-ride scholarship players. To the extent the NCAA treats men and women difference due is part to Title IX, I say its BS.

    Moreover, the lack of scholarships available to men is especially harsh for the sport. To the extent that others believe the college game in relevant to increasing the popularity on the men's side, I disagree because the college men's programs are hamstrung by the NCAA scholarship limits.
     
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  2. espola

    espola Silver Elite

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    I think I agree with you, except I don't know what you mean by "To the extent the NCAA treats men and women difference due is part to Title IX, I say its BS."

    Any NCAA DI or DII school that awards anything close to the full scholarships allowed for football is ignoring the elephant in the room.
     
  3. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    Each college is held accountable to Title IX before NCAA rules in that if a college has 65% men to 35% women participating in college sports then the total sports financial assistance to men needs to be close to 65% of the total financial assistance provided to participating athletes. If they aren't close, then they would be out of compliance and would need to make the male financial assistance congruent with the male/female percentages attending that college. In addition, I could find nothing that talked about NCAA or the like in the OCR findings to various colleges.

    For colleges with football programs that would generally make less financial assistance available to men in soccer but in total men's sports financial assistance for that school should be congruent with the male/female percentages attending that college.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  4. jpeter

    jpeter Bronze

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    Both my kids have been to on bunch of college campus visits/ tours. They liked some of schools but after talking with players, fellow students, coaches and what not the soccer programs really have not excited them much.

    My son been to a bunch of college games yet he doesn't think the short season or play is what he's wants to do for 4 to 5 years, much to boring he says. For the boys there are limited partial sholarships, at the D1 he was looking into coaches told him almost all those goes to lower income families. Instead of any more us college visits he's decided to apply for his EU passport and is touring & training at some of the Euporean academies and universities for the next few months

    For our daughter who is not even as highly rated in soccer as our son she has been recuited and offered more sholarship opportunies. In the end she decided that she wanted to focus on her career and education, soccer for her in college is too much of a sacrifice without any end game. The academic & citizen sholarships she has obtain so far are going to go a long way when she starts University in the fall.
     
  5. jpeter

    jpeter Bronze

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    The OP on page 1 summed it up nicely:
    "One thing that limits soccer is pay to play"

    "If we want to get better, the US Soccer Federation has to develop a better system. It can't be the case that potential stars aren't found because they can't afford to play or that they're just overlooked entirely"

    IMG is the tops for pay to play, have you seen them play in DA? terrible and near the bottom of the tables.

    Ussf has 110+ million dollars in profits they are sitting on, I can think of a many ways they could be spending that profit. He's one orginal one: give out grants to any school or parks that wants to convert parts of blacktops or play space to futstal courts. Getting more kids playing futstal at elementary and middle schools would create a whole generation of players with better skills. I've seen some cities converter some seldom tennis courts too futstal and the cost was minimal.

    Im with you on solidarity payments, the established stakeholders are against that so going to take special to get that done, hopefully not a another Olympics or world cup miss.

    My kids are almost done with youth soccer so it's pretty much now or never so trying to make the best of it.
     
  6. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    I had read the information in OCR (Office of Civil Rights) case resolutions (findings letters that looked at enrollment between sexes and the amount of financial assistance given to each gender (i.e. one case required a college to up their financial assistance to near 65% from 56% for females since female enrollment was 65% and the financial aid provided for women's sports made up 56% of the pool of financial assistance) and I also read the below information from the "Dear Colleague Letter April 2010" which is the guidance given to colleges by the Board of Education as noted below but thought the information I provided was more clear but said the same thing. For your benefit Espola here is the info from the Dear Colleague Letter April 2010. Notice NCAA plays no role in the test.

    "The Three-Part Test

    As discussed above, OCR uses the three-part test to determine whether an institution is providing nondiscriminatory athletic participation opportunities in compliance with the Title IX regulation. The test provides the following three compliance options:

    1. Whether intercollegiate level participation opportunities for male and female students are provided in numbers substantially proportionate to their respective enrollments; or

    2. Where the members of one sex have been and are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, whether the institution can show a history and continuing practice of program expansion which is demonstrably responsive to the developing interests and abilities of the members of that sex; or

    3. Where the members of one sex are underrepresented among intercollegiate athletes, and the institution cannot show a history and continuing practice of program expansion, as described above, whether it can be demonstrated that the interests and abilities of the members of that sex have been fully and effectively accommodated by the present program.11
    The three-part test is intended to allow institutions to maintain flexibility and control over their athletic programs consistent with Title IX’s nondiscrimination requirements. As stated in the 1996 Clarification, “[T]he three-part test furnishes an institution with three individual avenues to choose from when determining how it will provide individuals of each sex with nondiscriminatory opportunities to participate in intercollegiate athletics. If an institution has met any part of the three-part test, OCR will determine that the institution is meeting this requirement.”
     
  7. younothat

    younothat Silver

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    Have you been through the recruiting, college placement, or scholarship process that involves sports with a female, male, or both?

    I'm not done yet but they are not equal; Title 9 is a federal law that operates like a entitlement program, there is no way around that, some men's soccer programs get less than 9 scholarships and women's 15+. We were told the 3 or so for the men's DI soccer programs have gone to other women sports that don't necessarily have allocations. I'm all for giving women athletes having the right to equal opportunity in sports in educational institutions that receive federal funds, but there has been very little oversite and some abuse of the system.

    The law applies to educational institutions that receive any federal funds and prohibits discrimination in all educational programs and activities, not just athletics

    The penalty for non-compliance with Title IX is withdrawal of federal funds. Despite the fact that most estimates are that 80 to 90 percent of all educational institutions are not in compliance with Title IX as it applies to athletics, such withdrawal of federal moneys has never been initiated.
     
  8. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    I am guessing that the scholarships of 15 for women and 9 for men has a football program and that is why there are less for men's soccer but when you look at scholarship money in total, and the allocation of those funds among men and women, you will see a different story. It may be the case if only looking at men's soccer vs. women's soccer but that is generally because the school has a football program.

    There are plenty of investigations of colleges and requirements to make changes and provide evidence to the OCR. Every complaint is required to be initially reviewed within 60 days (I think) at which time if the complaint has sufficient validity, it will be allocated to an office for further investigation. If there is a finding of non compliance, the first course of action is for the College to make changes that need to be approved and monitored by the OCR. What college is not going to do what the OCR tells them to do and take the risk of losing their funding? While many Colleges get attorneys involved with discussions with the OCR, the reality is the findings will be addressed by the college or they will lose their funding. Having said that, the investigation can take a year or more. Every case I looked at in the OCR reading room, the college was dinged big time and had to show proof of changes over the course of 2 years. I didn't see any big name colleges but that doesn't mean much since the OCR search engine is terrible! That is our Government for you!

    The only reason I am harping on this is because the various postings make it sound like women are getting more than men in college sports and that is not the case.

    Title IX represents both sexes. If males are being discriminated against or "under represented", they can file a complaint under Title IX too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
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  9. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    There is a typo, it should read "To the extent the NCAA treats men and women difference due is in part to Title IX, I say its BS. What I'm trying to say is using Title IX as a crutch for the disparate treatment between men and women's soccer is B.S. The NCAA should cap certain sports for competitive reasons, which prevents schools from hoarding athletes, but it should not create artificially low and disparate caps based on gender. 9.9 scholarship cap for men is v. 14 for women is wrong. Let schools manage how they are going to comply with Title IX by eliminating sports and/or reallocating scholarships within a range. But for the love of all things holy, that range needs to be sufficient to allow at least a coach/school to field two teams (22-24 for soccer is reasonable), 18 for baseball/softball, etc.
    When it comes to be NCAA scholarship limits it doesn't matter whether there's a men's football program or not. Men get 9.9 and women get 14, at all D1 schools. The discrepancy is an NCAA mandated discrepancy because in part of Title IX.

    Title IX is good for girls, but boys that don't play football receive less opportunity, which means collegiate soccer for boys is disadvantaged and boys that need scholarship money are advised to focus on football and not soccer. This also means that the quality of collegiate soccer will be low and collegiate soccer will remain inconsequential in the grand scheme.
     
  10. younothat

    younothat Silver

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    Ah the college I referring to doesn't have Men's football; in fact they only have 9 sports and the women 12 (Volleyball, Waterpolo, Swimming (men don't run) so difficult to to see the scholarship money being equal especially when your talking about 100+ more athletics on the women's side. I'm sure they make it up in some other program but even with Volleyball women get more scholarships, my kids play both so I checked.

    Maybe schools are trying to make up for past underfunded college sports for women because besides football there operating budgets have increased 3 fold I was told in the past 10 years vs others mens sports budgets.
     
  11. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    When looking at the total pool of scholarships for a given college between men and women without consideration of which sport, you will not find women getting more scholarships than men. That is how the OCR looks at Title IX. They look for equivalent opportunity between men and women. Football adds a problem because the men's scholarships has to be allocated among an additional sport with loads of men. That messes up the allocation percentages which is why you would expect to see more scholarships to women than men in soccer. That doesn't play well with developing men's soccer but is it Title IX or once again the sport of Football that causes that problem?

    NCAA does not govern Title IX nor does Title IX require caps. That is NCAA. I suspect that they are trying to ensure that the allocations come out right but in the end, it is the OCR determining if the college meets the 3 Prong test and if either sex is "underrepresented" than that is an issue.
     
  12. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    It sure sounds like NCAA is the one providing the problem under the guise of Title IX. Title IX is pretty clear about the equity it is searching for and how it goes about reviewing for compliance. It doesn't care about what the requirements are by the NCAA because it is reviewing actual numbers and those numbers need to represent a combination of equity in opportunities for the male and female students enrolled and total sports participation of students enrolled. I am only familiar with Title IX and the OCR because I was at my wits end fighting for the safety of my daughter with our school district. I have no knowledge of NCAA rules etc.
     
  13. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    FYI...I got this off of the NCAA website:
    Q. How do I know if my institution is in compliance with Title IX?

    You just need to ask. It has become easier for anyone to find out if an institution is in compliance with Title IX. In 1994, the U.S. Congress passed the Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act, which requires all colleges and universities to report each year on athletics participation numbers, scholarships, program budgets and expenditures, and coaching salaries by gender. Information may be obtained by contacting your institution's athletics department and requesting this information. The results are identified by gender, and a reader may use this information to assist in assessing an institution's compliance with Title IX.
     
  14. SPChamp1

    SPChamp1 Bronze

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    I believe that the P2P system’s faults lie in the fact that USSF is basically a closed system. Identifying young local talent has improved since the introduction of the P2P system, however I believe that it has now reached its maximum level of benefit and it is not enough to lead the USMNT to a WC Championship.

    There is no soccer pyramid in the US. MLS essentially has a monopoly on soccer here. Yes, they have opened academies, yes they have identified talent, but essentially, they sit around and wait for every other smaller club to identify and develop youth players and then poach these players from those clubs. Very few families are going to say no, when LAG, LAFC, NYCFC come knocking on their door. They basically sit around and wait to spot the talent instead of fostering it from the beginning.

    In my opinion, open the pyramid, establish a true 1st, 2nd, 3rd division at minimum and introduce promotion and relegation. Once you truly open the pyramid, the investments and money will come. You will now have at minimum 60-70 teams competing for the nation’s best youth talent and they will be forced to develop better coaches and better curriculum to get the best youth in their system. Each pro club will be forced to constantly up the bar for the others. You will see pro clubs start to scour your Local Rec leagues and Sunday Leagues for those talented kids who cannot afford the P2P system.

    It’s not gonna happen overnight. It will never work if you just throw it out there and say we will figure it out as we go, but let’s lay the ground work now so that being the host country is the only reason we are playing in the WC.
     
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  15. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    That is why I originally wrote that my problem with Title IX is with the NCAA rules that treat mens and womens sports disparately through scholarship limits. In the context of "US Soccer" the question/discussion as to what role the college level can play is directly impacted by the NCAA's scholarship limits.
     
  16. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    Title IX has nothing to do with it and that is my point.
     
  17. Keepermom2

    Keepermom2

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    Title IX is not a female law it is a gender equality law. If men are under represented at a given college via opportunity or financial regardless of NCAA rules, then they are out of compliance and a complaint can be filed with the OCR.
     
  18. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    @SPChamp1, I think you are missing a few key elements. Let's take a step back.

    Powers and Limitations of USSF
    The USSF is the National Governing Body for soccer under the U.S. Olympic Committee. The USSF has to both comply with the USOC law (Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act) and the IRS Rules for non-profits (its a 501(c)(3)). The USOC law dictates certain things like "athlete representation" and the IRS rules dictate that it cannot engage in certain activities without violating its non-profit status. On top of this, the USSF also is a representative member of FIFA and must abide by the FIFA bylaws.

    The USSF, pursuant (in part) to the Ted Stevens law has various "councils" that are voting members. These councils are broken into 4 power groups. Athletes Council (required under the law); Pro Council (required if you want the money guys to support the federation); Adult Council (2nd largest from a delegate stand point); and Youth Council (largest number of delegates).

    At the end of the day, however, delegates don't matter because votes are weighted to give near equal weight to each of the councils.

    The Federation, as a non-profit, isn't suppose to engage in "for-profit" activities (its violates the non-profit law). While its receives money in the form of "membership" fees from its various council members, the lions share of its revenues come from the USMNT and USWNT ($30M in FY 2017) and the monies generated from licensing ($49M). The membership fees are really pathetic:

    Youth = $4.1 M
    Referee = $3.1 M
    Pro = $1.2 M
    Amateur = $500k
    Coach = $1.1 M

    The MLS, USL, NWSL, are separate "for profit" entities that are members of the USSF through the various councils, BUT the USSF is not a shareholder/member or have any other management say.

    If the USSF attempted to mandate to the MLS or USL that they must implement Pro/Rel, these leagues have two options (1) comply with the suggestion; or (2) say no thanks well just drop out of the USSF and give up our seats on the Adult and Pro Councils, and while we are at it ... you can't have any of our athletes for your National Team (Hockey just did this for this years Olympic cycle).

    When it comes to the youth Council (AYSO, US Youth Soccer (Cal South), US Club, etc.), they are the groups that bring in the youth membership funds and are the groups mandated under the USSF Bylaws to effect change in the youth soccer world. Everything youth related flows through these non-profit organizations, except for two things (1) the Youth National Team and (2) the operation of the DA league (not, its just a league ... the clubs participating are all their own non-profits).

    Pay-to-play is the funding source for the clubs that play in the various youth soccer associations. The USSF doesn't not receive these funds, except a very small portion ($1 per player) earmarked as membership fees. The cool thing about charging just $1 per youth players tells us in Fiscal 2017 that 4.1M youth players actually contributed their $1 to the Federation.

    Editorial - is anybody surprised, shocked, dismayed that only 1 freaking dollar of their $1,500 to $3,000 in "club" fees goes to the federation? Follow up, what should the federation do with that dollar?

    MLS is a Closed Entity / Pyramid Scheme
    The MLS is not a "league" like we have seen before at the professional level. The MLS is an LLC where each member (owner) owns a percentage and is given the right to operate an MLS team in a particular region. The players are allocated to the team by the MLS and paid by the MLS (not the team). The MLS do date, has been breaking even so making a small profit through SUM (soccer united marketing), but has yet to see real success. It makes about $60M per year under its TV deal. Compare this to the NFL, where the league is an association of independant franchisees. Each franchise is its own legal entity and competes against the other franchises under the league rules. The NFL's annual TV deal pays it roughly $3 billion per year.

    Youth Club Have No Outside Revenue Incentives
    Because the MLS and Professional Players view the payment of solidarity and training fees to youth clubs as taking away from their pockets, the MLS and Professional Player have objected to the USSF administering these payments.

    The sole funding source for the vast majority of youth soccer is parents.

    The DA - MLS - Youth Connection
    The federation and MLS recognized P2P creates barriers for some elite talent so are undertaking a strategy to create fully-funded DA Academies.

    The obligation to fund these programs is not the USSF, but the clubs. After all the USSF only receives about $4.1M in youth fees.

    There are two groups of DA clubs. MLS affiliates and non-MLS affiliates. The economic incentive is different for each group. The MLS affiliates, pursuant to the MLS rules are able to identify "Homegrown" players and get some cap relief for their homegrown players, which is the current incentive. The non-MLS academy teams are nothing more than marketing ploys. Clubs like Surf, Strikers, Arsenal, Legends, etc., have DA teams that are used as part of their training pyramid. Join our Flight 3 team as a U9 and your kid could move up the ranks to the DA team, which is partially to fully funded. These clubs/teams subsidize their DA programs on the backs of the non-DA teams.

    Ultimately, the goal is eliminate P2P for the super-elite players (.5% to 1%), but P2P will always exist for the rest of the players.

    The USSF's only role here is the creation of a league with rules that require the independent clubs/teams (where the money is) to abide by certain training rules.

    With all of that said, the MLS is a major impediment to making real change. Until another league with the financial backing can threaten its position and provide the USSF a genuine alternative, the US Soccer landscape will not change.

    The good news is, however, that European clubs have an eye on the US and appreciate that there is significant talent potential.

    As long as we have enough Nationals playing oversees at young enough ages, our National teams will improve.
     
  19. InTheValley

    InTheValley Bronze

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    Where, exactly, is the money and investment going to come from? If you build a soccer pitch in a cornfield in Iowa, the ghosts of soccer past will all appear out of thin air to play ball, which will generate massive ticket sales revenue that saves the farm, er, team from foreclosure? Will someone, anyone, please do us all a favor and explain the business plan and proposed budget as if they were seeking a bank loan? The bank has a few questions...

    Who is going to “invest” in a program that could evaporate in a single year due to relegation? Why would an MLS team drop a million a year on a program that, for three of them every year, will just vaporize? Where is a newly promoted non-MLS team going to obtain the approximately $350,000 we are going to loan it that it takes to operate a team every year? How much do you think it will cost to hire and pay scouts (who actually know what to look for) to scour rec leagues for talent? Where is the money going to come from to pay these scouts? What is the likely return on investment paying people to scout 12-14 year olds playing AYSO? How many 13 year old rec players in the history of the world have ever developed into a pro soccer player, or even a college star? If that number is zero, as we think it is, why is paying people to scout AYSO games a better return on investment than scouting dance recitals for soccer players? Or spending that money and time coaching kids who are aleady committed to the sport? If money and investment are going to flow like the River Jordan into a system with P/R, why didn’t that happen with the really awesome CSL that @jpeter described as the greatest and most successful youth soccer development model of all time? A system so mind-bogglingly brilliant that all of the best clubs and players all left it?
     
  20. MWN

    MWN Silver Elite

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    Yes it does. The NCAA has chosen to implement its "scholarship limit" rules in a disparate manner because of Title IX. The NCAA had two basic choices:
    1) treat men and women scholarship limits equally, which then puts the burden on Schools to manage their Title IX obligations by eliminating sports to comply. This is the model adopted by the NAIA and NJCAA.
    2) eliminate scholarship limits for non-money sports (everything but Football and Basketball) and then let the Schools decide how to manage scholarships to meet Title IX. In my opinion, the best choice.
    3) Disparately treat scholarship limits in order to assist member schools in compliance with Title IX. This is the path chosen by the NCAA. Men get 9.9 and women get 14 scholarships.

    Now, if Title IX did not exist, the NCAA's adoption of scholarship limits for the various sports would not be disparate under the NCAA's chosen path (option 3). But, it does exist, which is fine. I just wish the NCAA would go with options 1 and 2 and not 3.
     

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