U17 Women's World Cup

Discussion in 'WNT/MNT/World Cup/Int'l Soccer' started by Dubs, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. Soccerfan2

    Soccerfan2 Bronze

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    USSF definitely tries to pick athletes who can beat other players. Many have called these the “wrong” players but I agree with EOTL’s argument that these players are the best candidates to be taught to play in a possession system. Plus I just don’t see kids that lack the skills to dribble or beat players 1v1 but are actually “better” players. What the US lacks in playing style is a symptom of our soccer culture and EOTL is right - YNT camp is not much time for a team and a style to gel. I also agree that USSF is not concerned with whether we win at U17, although I don’t agree they are only concerned about 2-3 players. The higher quality the overall evironment, the better the best will be.

    I agree with Sheriff too except I would go further and say first touch predicts almost everything else.

    US Soccer’s whole intent is to improve the overall soccer culture by requiring training, providing support and holding clubs accountable for playing soccer instead of kickball. DA was one first step in that direction.
     
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  2. Dos Equis

    Dos Equis Silver

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    Here I was worried about the lack of success of our various youth national teams, but apparently that is just part of the larger strategy for building the WNT. Only success at that level matters. Good thing we do not hold US Soccer to that standard for our MNT.

    Our WNT is successful because the development and competition the players get in college more than offsets the damage US Soccer can do at the youth level. The same cannot be said for the boys/men’s side. But I appreciate there are still believers — just one more alteration to standards of play, or a few more league rules and mandates, and the promised land awaits.

    Of course, they have now defined success as qualification for the World Cup. Given that is automatic for a host, I look forward to our future success in 2026.
     
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  3. watfly

    watfly Silver

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    IMHO the problem with a lot of 1v1 dribblers is that they think they're 1v3 dribblers. I only saw the 2nd half of the Germany game but I saw a fair amount of dribbling into heavy pressure where the ball was lost. If your trying to beat 3 players, 2 of your teammates are wide open, likely in close proximity...get rid of the freaking ball. That's soccer IQ.

    From my armchair, I think speed-of-play and gaining a numerical advantage are two of the most important elements in successful soccer. Dribbling can slow down the play and when you dribble into pressure your at a numerical disadvantage. Dribbling has to be used judiciously as a tool and not as an overall tactic. If you look at the most effective dribblers they dribble at the defender at speed with rarely any fancy moves, they beat you by getting you off balance and blowing by you (see Messi). Once a dribbler slows, stops, or pulls the ball back, they've lost most of their advantage and the defender recovers and simply "stands them up". At that point they have to rely on some fancy move with a low percentage success rate. The greatest advantage of a 1v1 dribbler is the threat that they will beat someone. For whatever reason, coaches and players fear getting beat 1v1 much more so than getting beat by a pass, so they mark up that player with multiple defenders which then gives you a numerical advantage which can be exploited by a smart player.

    In the context of this thread and the article, 1v1 has been defined as someone who can beat a defender on the dribble. To me a true 1v1 player is much more than that. They win 50-50 balls, they can maintain possession long enough to create space and make a great pass, they create space so they can receive a pass, they can pressure an attacker into making a bad pass, etc... It's someone who can be successful offensively and defensively while under pressure from a single opponent regardless of what the battle may be.

    I'm all for possession, because possession is proactive. If you have the ball you get to make the decisions. Given the option of having the ball and making a good decision vs. not having the ball and trying to make your opponent make a bad decision, I'd choose the former. However, possession without a purpose and/or pressure, is just possession for the sake of possession and probably isn't any more effective than "parking the bus".
     
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  4. Dos Equis

    Dos Equis Silver

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    Agree with much of what you have to say here. Let me try to unite a few concepts (and make a suggestion).

    A player is best able to beat their defenders not by taking them on 1v1, but with anticipation and their first touch. I do not mean standing around and being able to trap whatever ball comes your way, I mean taking a touch that is controlled, positive and creates space and options (and being an option yourself). That requires players with not only great foot skills, but who can anticipate where they can receive the ball with the best opportunity to either posses or attack (and preferably both), who can receive the ball at speed and make a controlled touch into a space they will be first to, who play with their head up so they see what is developing and adjust their decisions accordingly and, most importanly, it requires teammates who understand where they are likely to be, and how to pass it to that space (and not to where they were). Now perhaps some will argue that the best pure athletes can be taught all this. I respectfully disagree -- soccer IQ is both learned and innate, and you cannot relay on only one method to obtain it.

    Regardless, team play requires more time together. The USYNT camp should run from June-August, 60-70 days every summer (starting at age 14), then additional 2-3 week sessions fall/winter and spring, and perhaps one weekend per month games (in addition to their club). Player pools should be 60 per combined age group, able to create A/B/C teams. Encourage clubs to pay for their invited players' travel, have US Soccer cover all camp costs and have some travel scholarships. Stop funding club leagues, spend that money on the youth national teams and on coach education at the youngest levels.

    Oh -- and let the kids play high school soccer, because not only is it good marketing for US Soccer and what is possible, but it allows the kids, who will have a lot demanded of them, to still have a childhood. Even CIF makes exemptions for National Team duties. And playing HS will not lobotomize our best players, provided they have a soccer brain to begin with.
     
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  5. Soccerfan2

    Soccerfan2 Bronze

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    Dos Equis you’ve articulated lots of great things. I don’t think I’d want my 14 year old in camp for 70 days though! I think advancing team play and the other concepts you’ve identified at the grassroots level is key. Club level education and accountability can both help to drive that.
     
  6. pulguita

    pulguita Silver

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    Dos agree with your first paragraph 100%. And here lies the problem as you stated with the college game and beyond. At college, not going to develop IQ without a serious investment of time and study. Most will never do it. They got there without it - why do I need it? Further, from what I have observed is that the highest IQ players are typically punished. Calculus students mixed with Algebra students and you punish the Calculus kids for being too smart cause its too much effort to get everyone else up to speed.
    You see it every week in the collegiate game and in the NWSL. The same stupid mistakes over and over. Coaches think they can change at that level but they can't. They don't have the ability or they don't have the time.

    As far as the camp all summer I think that would be a waste of time. No soccer powers have their National Teams in Camp for that long. Our problem is our clubs are not on the same page. That is where all the development is. I think the reason Brazil and Argentina have struggled so much in the current environment is because the best players go to Europe and are scattered about. The Euro teams have most of their player playing in the domestic leagues of their respective countries. Hence when Spain come together they all understand Spanish futbol, Germany comes together they play German, etc. Until the US has a style and fundamentally develops the players, develops a true soccer culture (pick up, futsal, watching the best professionally leagues fanatically) there will be no culture. If the come together in a US Camp it is essentially Babel. Further that much effort put into a 14 year old is counterproductive. Their is no guarantee that player will matriculate and further develop beyond 14.

    Agree with your final paragraph 100%.
     
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  7. Sheriff Joe

    Sheriff Joe

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    Come of guys, it's just soccer and there are only a few lucky women on the National team.
    From what I see and hear most colleges play kickball and that is a big part of their training.
    I imagine almost all non-USA international players would give it up to be a citizen in the US.
     
  8. LASTMAN14

    LASTMAN14

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    Played kickball in elementary school with industrial strength red rec ball. I loved slow baby bouncies.:D
     
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  9. MarkM

    MarkM Bronze

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    Don't we win simply because of the numbers? https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-is-the-u-s-so-good-at-womens-soccer/
     
  10. San Diego

    San Diego Bronze

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    So many interesting opinions here! And a debate that probably won't be settled anytime soon... A couple of points I'd like to add.

    Regarding this idea of not getting "enough time together'. This group (including the coach) has spent four years together with a regular cadence of week-long camps and monthly 10-12 day camps leading up to the WC. US Soccer handed MC a blank check book which allowed him to invest a massive amount of time and money into this age group. So much time that a few girls had to self-select out of the program due to school and/or family commitments. They should be pretty comfortable/familiar with each other.

    IMHO, I would categorize many of the players selected for this particular team as playing a more "selfish" style. Just watch them with their club teams... Many of them running around with the ball, taking on multiple players, looking to take over the game. Coaches allow it because this often times gives the team the best chance to win and parents encourage it because they believe it's the best ways to get noticed by college coaches and scouts. The inherent problem though is when you have too many players with this same mindset together on the field, they have very little understanding of how to play as a team. The importance of putting the team's success before their own. How to play off of each other. How to play selfless soccer. And it's hard to blame a kid when this is exactly what they've been encouraged to do their entire youth careers.
     
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  11. LASTMAN14

    LASTMAN14

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    This comes third hand to me but I was told a person within the US Soccer program spoke up about this group and stated their selections where not the right ones for the very reasons you mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  12. Justafan

    Justafan Silver

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    We’ve been using this lame ass excuse ever since we started losing with our men’s national basketball team. Oh yeah I forgot that all the foreign players from other countries all play on the same club/professional team and spend hours after their regular practice to practice for the national team.
     
  13. Kicknit22

    Kicknit22 Silver

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    I wish I could give multiple rankings on this! I agree, Too funny! Winner!
     
  14. LASTMAN14

    LASTMAN14

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    Our friends host an annual kickball tournament. Besides a red ball we have plenty of red cups. o_O
     
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  15. Kicknit22

    Kicknit22 Silver

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    Got to!
     
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  16. MakeAPlay

    MakeAPlay Silver Elite

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    Too bad that person wasn't listened too...
     
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  17. electrichead72

    electrichead72 Bronze

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    What you're describing here is what I see a lot.

    A kid thinks that they are Messi, trying to dribble through the entire defending team. The parents on the sidelines hooping and hollering about how they're a superstar and to go all the way, or to "Take a shot!!!" from about 40 yards out.

    This usually leads to them losing the ball, overlooking some teammates that were in a better position, and essentially not helping the team, or hurting them depending on where on the field they lose the ball.

    There is a balance that the player has to find and recognize. When to dribble, when to pass or when to shoot. Sounds obvious, but the timing on these activities is hard to tie down for a lot of these young players. I'm not sure if this is a training thing or a soccer intelligence thing, but I see it so often, and there doesn't seem to be anyone trying to correct it.
     
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  18. Dos Equis

    Dos Equis Silver

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    You cannot build soccer IQ from zero, but neither does IQ arrive fully formed -- it needs training, experience and competition, taking chances and learning from mistakes.

    What puzzles is the inability for US Soccer to identify this IQ, and target development of these players. Nor understand that several of their rules and policies actually discourage the development of soccer IQ (including substitution rules, outside competition prohibitions, etc.)
     
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  19. espola

    espola Silver Elite

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    If this website had not been scrubbed at least twice by technical errors, you could read my opinions about DA from its founding in 2007-8. In summary, if the DA objective was to produce world-class competitive players in 10 years (does anyone else remember that promise?) they should have started with 10- to 12-year-olds. Instead, they just renamed their best older boys teams and increased the fees.
     
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  20. El Clasico

    El Clasico Silver

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    This a hundred times!! Biggest single factor in my mind is the amount of money in American Soccer. Because every decision is made with $$ being a factor, the powers that be will always pick their own interest over anything else. I have yet to hear ONE good reason for prohibiting outside competitions. This is a tremendous source of soccer IQ development. Why the need for so much control of the players?
     

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