No, I feel if they just did some research to update one self and form an educated opinion from there. Often many just shoot from the hip and/or emotion.
Solidarity and Training Payments and the Pay To Play Scapegoat
- Thread starter MWN
- Start date
Do soccer parents actually pay more than other sports? I know Gymnastics, ice skating, and competitive dance cost about 5 times as much as soccer(older daughter costs me about $800 per month when everything is added up, and this is just for her enjoyment (and to keep her from boys). When we do a tournament for basketball, which could sometimes be every other week, you would pay $50 for the tourney, $15 to park each day, and $10 each day to just watch. $120 for a weekend tourney, or about $250 per month. Then you have gym fees, coaches fees, etc. Now at $400 per month. Travel volleyball, lookout. Here are some listed in a couple articles. https://medium.com/@groundwork_bill/the-most-and-least-expensive-travel-sports-4f6664d3c2e2 and this one. https://usatodayhss.com/2017/paying-to-play-how-much-do-club-sports-cost
And it isn't just California. Look at these costs from Utah.
http://time.com/4913284/kids-sports-cost/
http://time.com/4913284/kids-sports-cost/
jpeter
PREMIER
Dang kids sports is a 15.3 billion industry that nearly doubled in the last 10 and that's a old 17' study so likely even more now.
"In TIME’s cover story this week, senior writer Sean Gregory explores the growing business of kids’ sports — a $15.3 billion industry that has nearly doubled in the last 10 years. Between league fees, camps, equipment, training and travel, families are spending as much as 10% of their income on sports, according to survey research from Utah State University
Sky-high costs are preventing some kids from participating. Overall sports participation rates have declined in the U.S. in recent years, and the trend is most evident among kids from lower-income families"
“Some parents just can’t pony up for it,” says Travis Dorsch, one of Utah State’s leading researchers on parental involvement in youth sports. “How many Michael Jordans and Michael Phelpses are out there who don’t have the opportunity?”
Hockey, lacrosse, club volleyball and some cheerleading can be pretty expensive compared to soccer in my experience for the average but the max figure quoted $5,500 for soccer can be easily reached if you play in certain leagues or tournments considering the travel costs involved.
Makes you wonder what spot kids sports would be on the fortune 1000 or maybe the 500 list. Either way $$$16billion is big business and would blow away the largest non profit in the US: United way at 3.7 billion.
@younothat, I did step up and provide a solution. I even spent considerable time educating folks on what Solidarity and Training Fee Payments are and how they work and directly impact the ability of youth clubs to provide "free" training. The solution I articulated is that the MLS and Federation needs to rethink its stance on Solidarity and Training Fees and go to war with the MLS Players union on this issue. They may even want to consider congressional action to circumvent the cloudy law on the issue.
I'm calling this Ben Fast fellow uneducated/biased because he just wrote an article on pay-to-play that completely ignores solidarity/training fees and instead cited Pro/Rel as the solution to eliminating pay-to-play. I read the article and his logic was nonsensical and I chuckled a few times in disbelief. Pro/Rel has no direct impact on pay-to-play, infact if Pro/Rel was the system we adopted 10 years ago, non-MLS clubs would still rely on pay-to-play because there are no incentives to provide free training. MLS clubs have a single incentive ... the homegrown player exemption.
The Pro/Rel model is simply a marketing ploy to increase public interest in the sport, which may/may-not create additional market penetration. Its actually a red-herring with little to no impact on pay-to-play at the youth level. The argument against Pro/Rel from a marketing perspective is that the U.S. market would be unaffected as evidence by the fact that the MLS, NBA, MLB, and NHL are all "semi-closed systems" with no Pro/Rel.
If Ben had a better understanding (more educated and less biased) he would be singling out the defects in the MLS single-entity model, which is the real problem. The single entity model protects the clubs from loss and dissuades clubs from outspending and buying success (ala Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, PSG, Real Madrid, etc.).
He may not have written it well, but I suspect Mr. Fast is conflating pro/rel with breaking the single-entity model. You can't have a single-entity MLS if the MLS teams can be relegated out of the top tier. And I suspect he's also imagining that pro/rel would break the current solidarity/training fees model. With pro/rel, any small club can develop players with the hope of someday moving the team up or selling them to a bigger club to cover the cost.
I think, in the end, he's just saying, "make it like Europe" where they have pro/rel, no single-entity at the top (at least not the way we have) and where all clubs reap the benefits of training players to the top levels. His point, then, is that Europe also has pay-to-play, but it doesn't get in the way of development because it's only at the lower levels.
Not saying I agree with him, just that that's what I think he's envisioning.
jpeter
PREMIER
I appreciate everyone's opinions and contributions regardless if I agree,like, or not because we all have different outlooks and experiences to share.
I went ahead and reread what the OP said along with the latest posted info also so not sure if opinions are changing or they just want to add to the conversation but hard to see any solutions offered that are workable.
I like solutions but most people seem to be one side or the other and nobody wants to meet in the middle or comprise to get a deal done.
One side is mostly anti-establishment (Bwfast) and want to have big changes like #ProRelforUSA as do moderates like @ThatCroatianGuy, the other end is the establishment who will reference a bunch of legalese about why things need to stay the same and there is no other solutions unless laws are changed or whatever.
The current Pay-To-Play system is one of problem(s) IMO but not necessarily the solution to the others referenced. Youth soccer exists without it just fine, in large parts of LA county there are more youth players playing outside the club environments than inside for example, don't have the articles handy but its not even close in numbers something like 500K+ youth players in much lower cost soccer environments even if the leagues are sanctioned or not. Just like the time article posted says
"Sky-high costs are preventing some kids from participating. Overall sports participation rates have declined in the U.S. in recent years, and the trend is most evident among kids from lower-income families"
When you see this first hand its hard to argue with reality and noway is there anywhere near the amount of "free" training or academies that some people seem to think exists. Some token scholarships by some clubs if they meet certain revenue thresholds and the "free" DA programs are few and far between.
As far as Solidarity Payments for youth clubs the establishment has used the legal system to circumvent that in the US and pretty much grab those $$$ even against the FIFA mandates, is the US the only county that allows this?
I went ahead and reread what the OP said along with the latest posted info also so not sure if opinions are changing or they just want to add to the conversation but hard to see any solutions offered that are workable.
I like solutions but most people seem to be one side or the other and nobody wants to meet in the middle or comprise to get a deal done.
One side is mostly anti-establishment (Bwfast) and want to have big changes like #ProRelforUSA as do moderates like @ThatCroatianGuy, the other end is the establishment who will reference a bunch of legalese about why things need to stay the same and there is no other solutions unless laws are changed or whatever.
The current Pay-To-Play system is one of problem(s) IMO but not necessarily the solution to the others referenced. Youth soccer exists without it just fine, in large parts of LA county there are more youth players playing outside the club environments than inside for example, don't have the articles handy but its not even close in numbers something like 500K+ youth players in much lower cost soccer environments even if the leagues are sanctioned or not. Just like the time article posted says
"Sky-high costs are preventing some kids from participating. Overall sports participation rates have declined in the U.S. in recent years, and the trend is most evident among kids from lower-income families"
When you see this first hand its hard to argue with reality and noway is there anywhere near the amount of "free" training or academies that some people seem to think exists. Some token scholarships by some clubs if they meet certain revenue thresholds and the "free" DA programs are few and far between.
As far as Solidarity Payments for youth clubs the establishment has used the legal system to circumvent that in the US and pretty much grab those $$$ even against the FIFA mandates, is the US the only county that allows this?
jpeter
PREMIER
For most clubs, losing a star like Frenkie De Jong would be a killer. For Ajax, it's their business model
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/esp...is-a-killer-for-ajax-its-their-business-model
Talking to De Ligt, it's easy to forget he is a teenager, as age matters little at Ajax. If a player is good enough, he will be given a chance with the first team. It is a place anchored on progression. They have this mantra of the next challenge being one pitch away at their academy and training ground, called De Toekomst("The Future").
Every side, from the under-9s to the first team, train here. There are 12 pitches stretched out, a patch of green in the middle of motorways 5 miles from the Dam Square, the historical center of Amsterdam. Small grandstands hug the pitches where the teams play competitively, with a concrete hub -- laced in Ajax nostalgia -- in the middle where players change, eat and learn. Talent is rewarded with opportunity and every year the academy offers up another future superstar to the first team.
De Ligt has been at Ajax since he was 9 years old. "This is my home... it's really nice," he says. It is a chilly morning, the type where a cold wind manages to somehow invade your clothing. De Ligt has just finished training; sitting in his gold Ajax tracksuit top and shorts, he seems untroubled by the temperature and politely turns down the offer of a coat. He talks about the excitement of facing Real Madrid in the Champions League knockout stages and the chance to win the Dutch Eredivisie.
It is an annual challenge to navigate, but training just a pitch away from the first team will be the next De Ligt and the next De Jong itching to step up. And we will be back here in five years asking them the same question.
"Like Johan Cruyff once said, it's never a team that makes its debut, it's a single player, an individual," says Westerveld. "We need to develop individual players so every player within our academy has his own individual plan to make the steps needed to finally get in to the first team.
"We use our [academy] team more or less not to win games, but to try to develop as many individual players as possible."
Below the balcony, the under-13s are training as the thud of footballs against railings and sporadic words of guidance from coaches echo through the open door. The move they are practising breaks down, and the players, all of varying heights and at different stages of physical development, are called back to start again"
At De Toekomst, there are plans to expand to 17 pitches and update the facilities, including a 3,000-capacity stadium where Jong Ajax and the under-19s will play. The training ground also has a school where the under-14s to under-19s receive their education, while fitting in seven training sessions a week and a match on Saturday. The club provides cars to ferry them to and from De Toekomst. Those from under-8 to under-13 -- age groups are decided on years, rather than governed by school term structure -- typically come from in and around the Amsterdam area, with the farthest living 60 kilometres away. All 250 or so academy prospects have individual plans, but their coaches are constantly on the lookout for new talent.
Ajax have four full-time scouts working in and around the Netherlands looking for first-team players, and another four abroad. The youth scouting operation is anchored by eight professional youth scouts and a network of 90 volunteers who keep the club updated on players of all ages up and down the country. They are usually people who know the club, either through playing there or because of their knowledge of the Ajax system. Ajax typically seek the scouts out but occasionally they are approached.
"In Holland we say: 'Success has many fathers,'" Westerveld says. "Many will claim to have found the star. But for us it's a team effort."
If SUM,MLS, USSF (in business with the first two) weren't obstructing this model in the US maybe things would be different and there could by a successful business model and real US based academies .
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/esp...is-a-killer-for-ajax-its-their-business-model
Talking to De Ligt, it's easy to forget he is a teenager, as age matters little at Ajax. If a player is good enough, he will be given a chance with the first team. It is a place anchored on progression. They have this mantra of the next challenge being one pitch away at their academy and training ground, called De Toekomst("The Future").
Every side, from the under-9s to the first team, train here. There are 12 pitches stretched out, a patch of green in the middle of motorways 5 miles from the Dam Square, the historical center of Amsterdam. Small grandstands hug the pitches where the teams play competitively, with a concrete hub -- laced in Ajax nostalgia -- in the middle where players change, eat and learn. Talent is rewarded with opportunity and every year the academy offers up another future superstar to the first team.
De Ligt has been at Ajax since he was 9 years old. "This is my home... it's really nice," he says. It is a chilly morning, the type where a cold wind manages to somehow invade your clothing. De Ligt has just finished training; sitting in his gold Ajax tracksuit top and shorts, he seems untroubled by the temperature and politely turns down the offer of a coat. He talks about the excitement of facing Real Madrid in the Champions League knockout stages and the chance to win the Dutch Eredivisie.
It is an annual challenge to navigate, but training just a pitch away from the first team will be the next De Ligt and the next De Jong itching to step up. And we will be back here in five years asking them the same question.
"Like Johan Cruyff once said, it's never a team that makes its debut, it's a single player, an individual," says Westerveld. "We need to develop individual players so every player within our academy has his own individual plan to make the steps needed to finally get in to the first team.
"We use our [academy] team more or less not to win games, but to try to develop as many individual players as possible."
Below the balcony, the under-13s are training as the thud of footballs against railings and sporadic words of guidance from coaches echo through the open door. The move they are practising breaks down, and the players, all of varying heights and at different stages of physical development, are called back to start again"
At De Toekomst, there are plans to expand to 17 pitches and update the facilities, including a 3,000-capacity stadium where Jong Ajax and the under-19s will play. The training ground also has a school where the under-14s to under-19s receive their education, while fitting in seven training sessions a week and a match on Saturday. The club provides cars to ferry them to and from De Toekomst. Those from under-8 to under-13 -- age groups are decided on years, rather than governed by school term structure -- typically come from in and around the Amsterdam area, with the farthest living 60 kilometres away. All 250 or so academy prospects have individual plans, but their coaches are constantly on the lookout for new talent.
Ajax have four full-time scouts working in and around the Netherlands looking for first-team players, and another four abroad. The youth scouting operation is anchored by eight professional youth scouts and a network of 90 volunteers who keep the club updated on players of all ages up and down the country. They are usually people who know the club, either through playing there or because of their knowledge of the Ajax system. Ajax typically seek the scouts out but occasionally they are approached.
"In Holland we say: 'Success has many fathers,'" Westerveld says. "Many will claim to have found the star. But for us it's a team effort."
If SUM,MLS, USSF (in business with the first two) weren't obstructing this model in the US maybe things would be different and there could by a successful business model and real US based academies .
Do you think without MLS involved we have a chance of a youth academy having 17 fields and a complex all their own?
La Galaxy academy is the closest we have here in the US. From what I know (which isn’t much) the LA Galaxy academy is a flea on an elephant’s booty compared to Ajax, La Masai, etc.
Its actually quite remarkable that there are any US players that are able to make a 1st team in Europe. Even more remarkable that it’s a big deal that we DIDNT qualify for the last World Cup.
La Galaxy academy is the closest we have here in the US. From what I know (which isn’t much) the LA Galaxy academy is a flea on an elephant’s booty compared to Ajax, La Masai, etc.
Its actually quite remarkable that there are any US players that are able to make a 1st team in Europe. Even more remarkable that it’s a big deal that we DIDNT qualify for the last World Cup.
jpeter
PREMIER
Well the LA Galaxy academy doesn't even have 4 fields, they rent them from the lease holders or get them from MLS parent business side. They spend 4million or more on there youth academy last reports and there best player walked away from free to play in Europe.
Alex Mendez.
https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2...FjAPegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1yPBgr8zohiXJ_XaiGQnet
He spent a big part of his youth with other clubs so 3 years at the Galaxy did help him but only fraction whatever that maybe?