Sin Bin Rule

Based upon your description, it sounds like the soft yellow/blue card isn't working as an effective deterrent. To me it sounds like its just punishment, that does nothing to improve the game. In fact, it sounds like the opposite with short-handed teams having to pack-it in for periods at a time, which certainly takes away from the "beauty" of the game.

I understand people's concern for "cynical" fouls, less understanding for "tactical" fouls (neither of which I believe are defined in the LOTG), but it seems that under the current laws these types of "intentional" fouls are already covered, particularly for DOGSO. What tools do referees not already have, including direct communication (for example, verbal reprimand or warning), to combat these fouls?

IMHO opinion, the solution to dissent is easy. Only the Captain is allowed to speak directly with the ref when discussing a call, all other players need to maintain a certain distance if a call is in question (not a distance that needs to be strictly enforced, but its obvious when a player has encroached on a ref's personal space).

Having said all of this, I do like the HS rule for coming off the field on a yellow, but teenage boys are a whole other beast (although some beer league adults, sometime aren't any better as they attempt to relive prior "glory').
Rugby has the captain only speaks to the ref rule and it works fine. Refs don't seem to have any issue controlling rugby games and there is little to no talking back to the ref and none of the histrionics that you see in soccer. Seems to me that players emulate their "heroes", so if the kids see the best in the world, the best at club level and all other (adults) in between play without talking back to the ref, then they copy that ... versus soccer!!

 
Rugby has the captain only speaks to the ref rule and it works fine. Refs don't seem to have any issue controlling rugby games and there is little to no talking back to the ref and none of the histrionics that you see in soccer. Seems to me that players emulate their "heroes", so if the kids see the best in the world, the best at club level and all other (adults) in between play without talking back to the ref, then they copy that ... versus soccer!!

For whatever reason there seems to be more decorum in rugby. Maybe In part because of a historical soccer culture vs. rugby culture?
 
For whatever reason there seems to be more decorum in rugby. Maybe In part because of a historical soccer culture vs. rugby culture?
Maybe culture, but more I think that coaches & players will push the boundaries and try to get away with whatever they can. Rugby is strict and no nonsense, soccer is not and generally inconsistent. I don't buy into the "Rugby, a thug's sport played by gentlemen; Soccer, a gentleman's sport played by thugs." narrative.

You also never see coaches or managers screaming at the referees in Rugby, e.g. I always wonder why Arteta at Arsenal is not yellow carded for not staying in the technical area. He goes outside it constantly during games. It sets an example and shows a complete lack of respect to the rules / boundaries / officials - but that's just me.

I think its an easy one to resolve, just give the refs the power to send off anyone who screams abuse at them and let them implement it. A few weeks of coaches & players getting reds would reset the relationship imv and generally resolve the issue.
 
Based upon your description, it sounds like the soft yellow/blue card isn't working as an effective deterrent. To me it sounds like its just punishment, that does nothing to improve the game. In fact, it sounds like the opposite with short-handed teams having to pack-it in for periods at a time, which certainly takes away from the "beauty" of the game.

I understand people's concern for "cynical" fouls, less understanding for "tactical" fouls (neither of which I believe are defined in the LOTG), but it seems that under the current laws these types of "intentional" fouls are already covered, particularly for DOGSO. What tools do referees not already have, including direct communication (for example, verbal reprimand or warning), to combat these fouls?

IMHO opinion, the solution to dissent is easy. Only the Captain is allowed to speak directly with the ref when discussing a call, all other players need to maintain a certain distance if a call is in question (not a distance that needs to be strictly enforced, but its obvious when a player has encroached on a ref's personal space).

Having said all of this, I do like the HS rule for coming off the field on a yellow, but teenage boys are a whole other beast (although some beer league adults, sometime aren't any better as they attempt to relive prior "glory').
It does work very well. Usually during the first two weeks of the season there are a good number of soft-yellow and yellow cards. After the teams have played a couple games and get the soft-yellow reminder, we see dissent and cautionable fouls decrease. We also see an increase in goals scored while teams are playing down due to players off for the soft-yellow. Overall the games seem to flow smoothly without the dissent and reckless fouls. This is a military league with players that are in good shape, know the game, have skills and a lot of type-A personalities, so these guys want to win. Definitely not a beer league since alcohol is prohibited at the field.
 
IMO the yellow card for 13 to 18 year olds does not do much good because there is no negative consequences. It tends to work better in high school soccer because a player that is cautioned must leave the field and stay off until the next teams next substitution opportunity. I would like to see the high school yellow card rule put in place for youth club soccer.
 
IMO the yellow card for 13 to 18 year olds does not do much good because there is no negative consequences. It tends to work better in high school soccer because a player that is cautioned must leave the field and stay off until the next teams next substitution opportunity.
In most of the leagues kids can be suspended for a game due to accumulation of yellows. It sucks for the kids who had to "take one for the team" (or take five for the team, I guess) vs. the kids who were truly acting recklessly.
I would like to see the high school yellow card rule put in place for youth club soccer.
Wouldn't work in MLS Next, though because once you're off, you're off. And it ECNL I think you have to stay off for the rest of the half.
 
In most of the leagues kids can be suspended for a game due to accumulation of yellows. It sucks for the kids who had to "take one for the team" (or take five for the team, I guess) vs. the kids who were truly acting recklessly.

Wouldn't work in MLS Next, though because once you're off, you're off. And it ECNL I think you have to stay off for the rest of the half.
It would just be a tweak to the MLSN/ECNL rules though, so no reason not to work.
 
Maybe culture, but more I think that coaches & players will push the boundaries and try to get away with whatever they can. Rugby is strict and no nonsense, soccer is not and generally inconsistent. I don't buy into the "Rugby, a thug's sport played by gentlemen; Soccer, a gentleman's sport played by thugs." narrative.
Inconsistency is definitely a big factor.

I'm hardly a rugby expert, but one thing that stands out to me is in rugby the ref is in consistent communication with the players, whereas soccer refs rely more so on whistles and cards.
 
Inconsistency is definitely a big factor.

I'm hardly a rugby expert, but one thing that stands out to me is in rugby the ref is in consistent communication with the players, whereas soccer refs rely more so on whistles and cards.
I'm hardly a rugby expert, but from what I've seen there is more of a cooperative relationship between ref and player and the ref is more of a facilitator of the game whereas in soccer the ref acts more as the disciplinarian and the relationship between players and refs is more adversarial. (This is a generalization, there are exceptions to every rule, and I've found the best soccer refs are those that rely heavily on instructive verbal communication.)
 
Inconsistency is definitely a big factor.

I'm hardly a rugby expert, but one thing that stands out to me is in rugby the ref is in consistent communication with the players, whereas soccer refs rely more so on whistles and cards.
At the top level, the refs are mic'd up, so you can hear everything on the field. It can also be played realtime, so you know what's being said etc.

I would think the communication is similar, although Rugby is far more technical in nature, so the ref explains the decision (quickly) in realtime. TBH, I think generally the players (Rugby) accept the ref decision and get on with it. If there is any issue, the captain (only) talks to the ref, which happens but only a few times a game if even that, and only for clarification generally.
 
At the top level, the refs are mic'd up, so you can hear everything on the field. It can also be played realtime, so you know what's being said etc.

I would think the communication is similar, although Rugby is far more technical in nature, so the ref explains the decision (quickly) in realtime. TBH, I think generally the players (Rugby) accept the ref decision and get on with it. If there is any issue, the captain (only) talks to the ref, which happens but only a few times a game if even that, and only for clarification generally.
Maybe more opportunities to communicate in rugby as it seems there are more restarts and they tend to involve more players in a consolidated area where soccer players are spread out.
 
Maybe more opportunities to communicate in rugby as it seems there are more restarts and they tend to involve more players in a consolidated area where soccer players are spread out.
Yeah, different game and different cadence. I do think there's potential there though - people seem to always focus on the "why it can't" rather than "why it can", e.g. above someone said it couldn't work in MLSN/ECNL due to reentry rules, versus implementing it would have to be aligned with a tweak to the reentry rules in MLSN/ECNL ...
 
Yeah, different game and different cadence. I do think there's potential there though - people seem to always focus on the "why it can't" rather than "why it can", e.g. above someone said it couldn't work in MLSN/ECNL due to reentry rules, versus implementing it would have to be aligned with a tweak to the reentry rules in MLSN/ECNL ...
While I agree with your "can't" vs. "can" sentiment, in this case I don't get past the "Why?". I'm never a fan of adding rules or laws when there already exists rules or tools to deal with the situation. There are better ways to handle dissent as we discussed and now we're going to have to have IFAB define "cynical" and "tactical" and refs have to interpret it. We have great debates over fouls being yellow and red, and now we're adding a third color? We've seen IFAB completely FUBAR "handball" rules. If you want to do a "sin bin", a better option would be to just to do it with a yellow, although 5 min is too long in my mind.

I like the rule in HS because I see it as less punitive and more as a cooling off period. HS has a great discrepancy in skill sets between players which leads to more reckless and emotional fouls, or less skilled players using aggression over skill (and teenagers are just more emotional in general). Does it work, IDK because I do see more red cards than at any other level of soccer. MLS Next soccer is very physical, but far better controlled and less cynical.

I can see an argument for "sin bin" at some levels like adult rec and HS, but I think it would be a disaster at the professional levels.
 
While I agree with your "can't" vs. "can" sentiment, in this case I don't get past the "Why?". I'm never a fan of adding rules or laws when there already exists rules or tools to deal with the situation. There are better ways to handle dissent as we discussed and now we're going to have to have IFAB define "cynical" and "tactical" and refs have to interpret it. We have great debates over fouls being yellow and red, and now we're adding a third color? We've seen IFAB completely FUBAR "handball" rules. If you want to do a "sin bin", a better option would be to just to do it with a yellow, although 5 min is too long in my mind.

I like the rule in HS because I see it as less punitive and more as a cooling off period. HS has a great discrepancy in skill sets between players which leads to more reckless and emotional fouls, or less skilled players using aggression over skill (and teenagers are just more emotional in general). Does it work, IDK because I do see more red cards than at any other level of soccer. MLS Next soccer is very physical, but far better controlled and less cynical.

I can see an argument for "sin bin" at some levels like adult rec and HS, but I think it would be a disaster at the professional levels.
I disagree with the any changes related to cynical/tactical. Its way too subjective, esp. on the latter.

I do hate dissent though and wish referees would just yellow card it every time and that leads to more reds, then fine. I think they don't, as it will, so maybe the sinbin card fills that void.
 
Yeah, different game and different cadence. I do think there's potential there though - people seem to always focus on the "why it can't" rather than "why it can", e.g. above someone said it couldn't work in MLSN/ECNL due to reentry rules, versus implementing it would have to be aligned with a tweak to the reentry rules in MLSN/ECNL ...
They did this for head injuries, but head injuries are harder to fake...

Coach: Hey, Jonny, you look tired. Go get a yellow card so I can sub you out for a few minutes and then I can sub you back in...
 
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