Re-entry

Simisoccerfan said:
Hey, asshole! You don't know me! I have a great relationship with all of my kids. If you don't like how I respond to your posts that's fine but keep any reference to my kids out of your idiotic posts.
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Watch your language Mr. McGrumpy, you've going too far. You had plenty of opportunity to engage in grown up discussion, but instead came out of the gate as a patronizing and arrogant jerk, and then kept digging the hole deeper when that went sideways for you. Even after I flat out told you I was speaking tongue-in-cheek, you just couldn't lay off. If you want people to treat you respectfully, you should start by being respectful. But if you're going to be a prick, well, I'm happy to push your buttons because it's fun, easy and I'm better at it than you.

Isn't this forum a great learning tool? You've now learned a lot about ACL injury avoidance and also a valuable life lesson in how to treat people, even if you had to learn both the hard way. Maybe some day you'll learn to take a joke too, but you should probably block me now if that is asking too much. If you think it would help patch up our relationship, however, I'll give you one more chance to support your position on the pill with competent, scientific evidence if you have any. If you don't, it's fine if you just want to apologize for being wrong and so mean to me.
 
End of the Line said:
If you want people to treat you respectfully, you should start by being respectful.
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One should listen to one’s own advice! Can’t be an antagonist and claim people can’t take a joke. Especially when targeting people’s kids whether directly or indirectly and when using fake concern to push an anti DA agenda.
 
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sdb said:
Just curious, what is the argument that DA makes for their current sub rules? Our team playing in 06 DPL has limited subs also which seems unnecessary.
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Hockey-line substitution patterns lead to an ugly, pressing style of play. There is a huge place in the game for pressing, but it should be done strategically and based on good positioning. If you press, you should have to suffer the consequences of fatigue. When fresh legs are brought in every 15 minutes, it places an over-emphasis on pressing, which leads to a hyper-focus on speed while downplaying technical ability.

I'm not sure what the DPL sub rules are or whether they make sense. Nor do I think all limited substitution rules make sense in all circumstances. But I would recommend paying close attention to the end of each half when the girls tire out. I think you will notice a difference in the ball movement and the slower build out from the back.

My view of substitution rules is not limited to soccer, however. I would prefer other sports, particularly American football adopt limited substitutions as well. Liberal substitution rules lead to way too much specialization even within a sport. It also can be unhealthy. I don't think NFL lineman could ever be above 250 pounds if they had to play the entire game: https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-player-chargers-nick-hardwick-weight-loss-2015-6 .
 
I just checked the stats for our last season. Our roster ran 21 deep (not included DP girls that never moved full time). We had a number of injuries through the season (along with other commitments were girls could not make a game) and some girls were added late in the season to the roster so we rarely had to non-roster someone who could play. Even then those players not rostered often played that day with the older team. The 21st player averaged 32 minutes. 17-20 averaged from 48 to 42 minutes. Our 12th player averaged 66 minutes.

This is data for just one team at one club but in my mind it clearly shows how the no re-entry rules along with the 25% start rule ends up spreading out minutes and how the end of the bench actually can benefit by getting more playing time under these rules.
 
Simisoccerfan said:
I just checked the stats for our last season. Our roster ran 21 deep (not included DP girls that never moved full time). We had a number of injuries through the season (along with other commitments were girls could not make a game) and some girls were added late in the season to the roster so we rarely had to non-roster someone who could play. Even then those players not rostered often played that day with the older team. The 21st player averaged 32 minutes. 17-20 averaged from 48 to 42 minutes. Our 12th player averaged 66 minutes.

This is data for just one team at one club but in my mind it clearly shows how the no re-entry rules along with the 25% start rule ends up spreading out minutes and how the end of the bench actually can benefit by getting more playing time under these rules.
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I'm also happy to discuss math now that we've settled the discussion on biology. I'm better at math anyway.

It is axiomatic that the additional substitution flexibility offered by ECNL provides more opportunity for the equitable distribution of minutes. If you have more substitution opportunities, you have more opportunity to distribute minutes equitably in both a game and throughout a season. It's a mathematical certainty. If any coach (GDA or not) isn't passing out minutes equitably, that's the coach not the rules, unless you're in GDA.

Look at this another way. Let's say hypothetically my daughter played GDA last year and her team played down a player and occasionally two in at least 5 games due to injuries in the last 10-15 minutes of games. That's about 65 minutes over the season that could have been given to someone on the bench, and which would have been filled in any league but GDA, but which were filled by no one, and for what conceivable reason? Furthermore, because many GDA coaches understandably avoid this kind of problem, it leaves bench players on the bench longer than anyone would like in virtually every game. In other words, virtually every GDA game played results in some players playing more minutes than they need or should even have, and others playing fewer than they need or should have. Some games also involve players playing hurt unnecessarily because they can't be subbed without having to play short. It's one of reasons almost all of the best clubs in the country have jumped ship or relegated GDA to its B-teams.

Claiming that fewer opportunities to play in games means more opportunities to play in games is just more non-sense. If we didn't live in Trump land, I wouldn't believe people were this dumb.
 
End of the Line said:
I'm also happy to discuss math now that we've settled the discussion on biology. I'm better at math anyway.

It is axiomatic that the additional substitution flexibility offered by ECNL provides more opportunity for the equitable distribution of minutes. If you have more substitution opportunities, you have more opportunity to distribute minutes equitably in both a game and throughout a season. It's a mathematical certainty. If any coach (GDA or not) isn't passing out minutes equitably, that's the coach not the rules, unless you're in GDA.

Look at this another way. Let's say hypothetically my daughter played GDA last year and her team played down a player and occasionally two in at least 5 games due to injuries in the last 10-15 minutes of games. That's about 65 minutes over the season that could have been given to someone on the bench, and which would have been filled in any league but GDA, but which were filled by no one, and for what conceivable reason? Furthermore, because many GDA coaches understandably avoid this kind of problem, it leaves bench players on the bench longer than anyone would like in virtually every game. In other words, virtually every GDA game played results in some players playing more minutes than they need or should even have, and others playing fewer than they need or should have. Some games also involve players playing hurt unnecessarily because they can't be subbed without having to play short. It's one of reasons almost all of the best clubs in the country have jumped ship or relegated GDA to its B-teams.

Claiming that fewer opportunities to play in games means more opportunities to play in games is just more non-sense. If we didn't live in Trump land, I wouldn't believe people were this dumb.
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65 minutes over an entire season. Wow! That's a lot of missed opportunity; hypothetically, of course. Great point!
 
EOTL I feel safe in speaking for all of us in GDA to say that we are more than cool with you staying in ECNL. I say that with hesitation because I know, support and love lots of outstanding ECNL kids, coaches and families, but better them than us! We are all dumber for having listened to you, and may god have mercy on the souls of all the other parents on your poor child’s team :D
 
I wish ECNL/SCDSL/CSL published data on their substitutions and minutes played. Then we could see if open substitutions actually results in more playing time for those at the end of the bench versus the DA rules.
 
Roster sizes play a role in any league however since my kids have played or are now playing in those ones mentioned:

At U15+ DA is the least amount of play time for those on the end of the bench, when only 15 play (11 + 4 subs) the starting 11 gets what they need and everybody else not enough basically.

There is a disconnect between the roster sizes and sub rules in DA: with 18-23 players there is always going to between 3-8 players each week who don't play at all. 11 players get the majority of the minutes, 1-2 will get 20 minutes, 1-2 will get 10 minutes at game.

ECNL, DSL,CSL all seem to be about the same to me but again lots depends on the roster size. With 16 or so players in those leagues should be enough minutes for most, more than 16 yes depends on the coaches, situations, etc
 
Simisoccerfan said:
I wish ECNL/SCDSL/CSL published data on their substitutions and minutes played. Then we could see if open substitutions actually results in more playing time for those at the end of the bench versus the DA rules.
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Related to the playing time and injury discussion which got a few folks riled up, it would also be interesting for all of the leagues to publish an injury report where they list when injuries occurred for players (what time of the game, how many minutes played leading up to injury, etc.). Never gonna happen, but at least we'd then have some data to go by beyond those scientific studies... I'm sure everyone has an anecdote or 2 on this. The bad one we had on our team occurred late in the third game on a three day weekend (played 1 game per day).

From what I've seen and heard from others on teams with small benches like ours, the substitution limits are keeping starters 1-9 on the field longer and meaning fewer minutes to players 10-13. We have only 3 moments to sub (plus halftime) during the game so the coach uses those sparingly in the first half. Even with unlimited substitution, we wouldn't be making line changes.
 
Soccerfan2 said:
EOTL I feel safe in speaking for all of us in GDA to say that we are more than cool with you staying in ECNL. I say that with hesitation because I know, support and love lots of outstanding ECNL kids, coaches and families, but better them than us! We are all dumber for having listened to you, and may god have mercy on the souls of all the other parents on your poor child’s team :D
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I just won $100 for the god reference, although I was aiming for @simisoccerdad. If you lean on science deniers hard enough and blast through the typical rhetorical tactics they use to dodge the science, they virtually always eventually resort to expletives and default to a religious reference in a last ditch effort to end the discussion. The latter makes them think they'll get sympathy from part of the audience, even if it's just a handful of people so far in your case. They also expect religion to be off limits and can therefore end debates as "winners" without ever having made a single substantive point in an argument that really isn't a legitimate debate at all. It's fascinating dilemma. On the one hand, my buddy didn't want to expose religious bias as the basis for his initial reflex negative reaction to the pill because it would mean he has no credibility to bizarrely claim it can't help prevent ACL injury. On the other hand, he eventually found that the typical tactics - patronizing statements followed by personal attacks on credibility, misrepresenting prior statements, pretending using a couple numbers constitutes a real mathematical or statistical analysis, expletives, even falsely accusing me of personally attacking his children - that usually run people off weren't working, but were instead being met in kind and then one-upped (ok, twice-upped). So, inevitably, someone threw out the god card when it just wasn't going to stop otherwise. The only thing I can't figure out about your comment, though, is that you used a lower case "g". Did I just get lucky or are you also trying to hide the religious angle to the bitter end?

Let me know when you're ready for a serious ACL discussion. You and @simisoccerdad would be much better off admitting the pill probably does help reduce ACL injury risk, but your religious or social reasons outweigh the likely health benefit to teenage girls in your opinion, which is at least a fair point. Instead, your buddy would prefer to resort to the typical rhetoric by mocking me and trashing some poor Mt. Olive undergrad student whose article actually references solid professional studies if you actually read it. But if you're gonna be a jerk, I'm happy to play that way too, obviously. In the meantime, for the sake of our children's knees, can @simisoccerdad explain the basis for his position on the pill? Is it based on anything? Or did his sub-conscious puritanical upbringing get him in over his head on this one, so he finally threw in the towel and slithered off?
 
sdb, Not sure if this is your first year in DA but the 25% start rule will greatly increase the playing time for the bench players if implemented properly. It will force the coach to play substantial minutes to all players when they start since they also have limited subs and moments to sub. At least that is how I have seen it play out.
 
Simisoccerfan said:
I wish ECNL/SCDSL/CSL published data on their substitutions and minutes played. Then we could see if open substitutions actually results in more playing time for those at the end of the bench versus the DA rules.
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Just let it go......not worth continuing the comparisons. It ends up as nothing but Troll bait.
 
Bravo, End of the Line, Bravo.

That is some quality shit right there. Tail between the legs from multiple posters on a single thread. TROLL ON!
 
End of the Line said:
Your daughter's personal experience is a pretty small sample size for an ACL risk study. It's cute you think your daughter can go hard for 90 minutes straight without a significantly increased risk of an ACL injury, and that "listening to her body" can help avoid ACL injury. Which medical study gave you that advice? Regardless, your suggestion that there are only two options, play DA without reentry or play multiple games in one day is a false choice. Is your mind really so small that you can't figure out that you shouldn't be required to do either?

Placer dad, right? I get it, you had delusions of grandeur about what the GDA would do for your daughter and irrational hopes it would allow her club to leapfrog all the other clubs in the underwhelming and rather sad Sacto soccer world. I suspect you're beginning to realize, however, that the DA is going down in flames with your daughter on board, only you aren't quite in the acceptance phase yet so you're desperately trying to convince others (but mostly yourself) that its rules are gospel. But smart people know those rules are stupid, unnecessary and potentially dangerous. That paying $10K to fly to five states plus San Diego to play teams that are worse than probably 20 NorCal clubs is insane. That anyone with half a brain and a modicum of ability is far better off at one of the local ECNL clubs. Don't worry, though, soon your daughter's club will be back in the NPL where it belongs, and you'll be making day trips to Modesto and praying Stanislaus St. got your daughter's email inviting them to scout her game against Ajax. That is, if she doesn't blow out her knee first trying to "defy the limits".
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Ummmm, wow, that was pretty angry.
 
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